how do you get a horse into an outline???

[dumpling]

Its various things- Getting your horse forward, off your leg, stepping under himself, flexing easily without being stiff. He must take the contact forward and you must 'hold' it but let him go as such. Lots of transitions etc. inside leg to inside hand.

 

[dumpling]

Tha should be outside hand!!

 

[sidesaddlegirl]

Sorry if I repeat anything, haven't read all the replies.

Working on the bit isn't about where the head is, it's about the entire body. The aim being to engage hindquarters and lighten the forehand. If the behind isn't engaged all you'll have is a forced outline and taking short cuts. I think to often instructors can have you working a horse in an outline but don't explain why or how the horse is supposed to be working.

Warm up - concentrate on a good rhythm and suppleness on both reins ensuring that the pace is nice and forward. energy. Suppleness - 10m circles, serpentines.

Then start with Transitions - walk to trot, halt (square) to trot leg yielding out from a 10m in walk and trot as you hit the track and so on. This can also be done in sitting trot.

When the horse is working correctly you can ask for an outline, hard work for a horse so keep it short.

I agree THIS^^^^^^

This is what I've been doing with my YO's horse (16yrs old mare, only ever ridden in a 3 ring dutch gag with her head up in the air- now swapped to a fat mouth eggbutt snaffle) and she rewarded me two days ago with suddenly softening and lowering her head in a walk for a few strides and did it again yesterday on the her hard, stiff left rein for a few strides. It was very hard work for her to do that so you have to keep it short and sweet.

 

[xTrooperx]

I got told (shouted at by ri) start with your seat, once your correctly positioned, your seat will help the horse bring their hind legs underneath which helps with the forward motion, and sure others can go from there..

 

[LJN]

I'm starting to wonder of this outline thing is all its cracked up to be.
I know, I know, I'm very ignorant but it all looks so artificial.

Paula

When I school my boy, I spend the first 15 mins letting him cruise round on a long rein, stomping about and getting rid of all of his silly excess energy. Then when he is relaxed I take up a very light contact and use my seat as much as possible to regulate his pace. I do lots of cirlcles, lots of leg yeild etc and he brings himself into an outline all by himself when he is concentrating - I would never dream of forcing him as I think you achieve far more when the horse is relaxed rather than fighting the rider.
I do think it is important to work in an outline sometimes though - as I understand it, working in an outline builds the muscles in the horses back and hind quarters?

 

[paddy]

he brings himself into an outline all by himself

This! If you get the relaxation right, the balance right, the rhythm right, the 'straightness' right (even on a bend), the impulsion right and the collection right, your horse will be going in an outline. Getting my horse to go correctly (which I hope is what you mean, rather than going around with his nose on the vertical) is what my trainer has been teaching in the past two year's worth of lessons. It doesn't really distil very well into a post, but when you get it, you'll find yourself beaming!

Or of course, you could just 'tweaky tweaky' at the reins (one trainer did actually tell me to do this every time my horse poked his nose out), and push with your legs and seat and you'll keep a lot of people happy, although possibly not your horse ;-)

I do think the word 'outline' should be banned...

 

[M_G]

Not as someone said above - putting your hands at your knees - utter tosh!

QUOTE]

you beat me to that answer haha

 

[Littlelegs]

Of course hands shouldn't be fixed near your knees. You should move them alternately between your knee, & at least a foot behind, of course with a firm grip. And of course, the magnificent result is a horse who's hind legs come no further forward than level with its stifle. And you get to look cool cos as the horses mouth gets harder you can move to more severe bits, thus proving to all & sundry your extreme skill as a rider.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I'm going to go and ride my TB like this now - hands on knees, bent double, heels up and digging into his ribs - see how long it takes me to either A. be tanked off with. B. be bucked off or C. my horse plants and goes vertical because he has no where else to go.

Place your bets now please people - A, B or C!

 

[LaurenBay]

IMHO, you shouldn't even really be thinking about it. There's too much emphasis on where the head is rather than what is happening behind the saddle and the rider's leg. Essentially, for a horse to be in an outline it has to be working over its back, and from behind with it's pelvis tucked under. If the horse isn't engaged behind then there's no chance of a true outline being produced - only a false one, which is both pointless and dangerous to the muscular development of the horse. As another poster has said, it takes a long time for a horse to develop physically in this way. With my horse, I don't DO anything infront as such, I work the horse very much from behind, lots of transitions, getting him moving forward and in front of my leg and allowing with my hands. It's no coincidence that once he's properly working, he offers an outline naturally.

I would much rather see a horse in his natural outline but actually going forward and working correctly, than shuffling around with his head tucked in and his back end going nowhere.

You sound like my instructor!

I asked about working in an outline. Her reply was something along of this....
Your Horse can not maintain an outline as she isn't built up enough behind. No point in strapping her head down with gagdets as this isn't a true outline. Lets work on getting her off your leg instead and correctly working her hinds. By the end of that lesson, Ruby was starting to drop her head without me having to use my hands at all! it all came from getting her off my leg.

We are still a work in progress, but now I fully understand, I am in no rush to get her in an outline. We do lots of hacking and 1 schooling session a week. My aim is to get her infront of the leg and listening to my seat and not relying on my hands.

We will get there when she is stonger and I am a better rider!

 

[DanaHart]

Echo others...... get the horse working correctly from behind, engage the hindquarters, straightness, suppleness and in front of the leg, then worry about where the head is....... if all the above is correct, then the horse should automatically drop the nose.....

Example of 'on the bit'

Example of NOT 'on the bit'

 

[Farma]

Echo others...... get the horse working correctly from behind, engage the hindquarters, straightness, suppleness and in front of the leg, then worry about where the head is....... if all the above is correct, then the horse should automatically drop the nose.....

Example of 'on the bit'

Example of NOT 'on the bit'

I'm really sorry if this is controversial but the first pic doesn't look like a horse truly on the bit, although it is in an outline it looks held by the riders arm almost straight with an inward hand, and tilted forward slightly.

 

[TigerTail]

OP from a couple of other threads you've started recently I really think you are trying to run before you can walk with getting the horse in an outline. This is not something that happens over night, or that you will achieve correctly on a random horse you ride occasionally. Done properly it is the result of the horse being strong enough through his hind end and back and to have proper impulsion, not being pulled there by gadgets or the rider.

Suggest you get Heather Moffetts Enlightened Equitation book and start at the beginning and work your way through

The horse should be in self carriage if its in a true outline, not being put there by the rider like the above pic (terribly sorry but that is not correct) So there should be loops in the reins, the horses head is neither behind or in front of the vertical and the poll is still the highest point. They will be tracking up equally and have serious power in the hindquarters ready to piaffe/passage walk/canter etc etc

 

[Cortez]

I'm really sorry if this is controversial but the first pic doesn't look like a horse truly on the bit, although it is in an outline it looks held by the riders arm almost straight with an inward hand, and tilted forward slightly.

Afraid I'm going to agree with you here; The horse is behind the vertical, your arm is creating a broken line to the mouth, the horse's footfall is incorrect and it's on the forehand. Beware of making statements / posting pics on HHO! second picture is actually preferable!

 

[Wagtail]

So there should be loops in the reins,

There should be loops in the reins? Typo?

 

[Wagtail]

Afraid I'm going to agree with you here; The horse is behind the vertical, your arm is creating a broken line to the mouth, the horse's footfall is incorrect and it's on the forehand. Beware of making statements / posting pics on HHO! second picture is actually preferable!

Agree.

 

[Littlelegs]

Sorry, I too agree with farma & cortez.

 

[Armas]

So whats the difference with a outline & long & low ?

 

[Cortez]

A 'long and low' outline is just that; longer and lower than a regular, working frame.

 

[TigerTail]

There should be loops in the reins? Typo?

In true self carriage yes there SHOULD (!) be loops in the reins as the horse is capable of taking the bit forward without coming out of the outline or needing the riders hands for support.

 

[Cortez]

Sorry, that's a bit disingenuous - you'd take a horse long and low for part of its' warm up perhaps, or for a break, or loosening, but then return it to a 'normal' outline for regular work. A horse should be able/willing to work wherever the trainer puts it.

 

[Cortez]

In true self carriage yes there SHOULD (!) be loops in the reins as the horse is capable of taking the bit forward without coming out of the outline or needing the riders hands for support.

Well, there are many who would argue with you on that: not too many loops at the olympics, eh?

 

[Queenbee]

Afraid I'm going to agree with you here; The horse is behind the vertical, your arm is creating a broken line to the mouth, the horse's footfall is incorrect and it's on the forehand. Beware of making statements / posting pics on HHO! second picture is actually preferable!

sorry I agree too

 

[TigerTail]

Er no Cortez but that is not classical dressage, its modern dressage which has become very much polluted. Hence all the rolkur threads about using force of hand and bicep to haul the horse in to the 'correct' position rather than using correct training so it can carry itself there.

 

[Wagtail]

In true self carriage yes there SHOULD (!) be loops in the reins as the horse is capable of taking the bit forward without coming out of the outline or needing the riders hands for support.

If the rider is really skilled then the feeling in the rein should be light as a feather but I hate seeing loops in the rein unless it is western. Loops can happen if the horse is afraid of the bit too. I like to see a straight line from the elbow to the bit but no real weight in the reins. The horse does not lean but can feel the rider's hands.

 

[Cortez]

Er no Cortez but that is not classical dressage, its modern dressage which has become very much polluted. Hence all the rolkur threads about using force of hand and bicep to haul the horse in to the 'correct' position rather than using correct training so it can carry itself there.

Agree totally: don't much like most modern dressage riding - except for the lovely "new" British School - all hail Carl & Charlotte!

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I agree with cortez too. The second pic, whilst not "on the bit" (its slightly above the bit) is closer to it. The first pic, the poll isn't the highest point (which it should be) and the horse is over bent, which is worse than being above the bit.

Little legs I was horrified by your last post, thinking, but she normally talks sense! Until I got to the end of your post and realised you were taking the mickey. Yeh the numpties often do exactly what you've described and I feel so sorry for the horses ridden like this.

Mythical, I like that quote about the horse offering an outline as a reward for good riding. If the rider doesn't hold their position well (the rider outline, if you like) the horse can't carry himself in an outline under the rider. Riders need to work on themselves before working on the horse.

Paulag, you said something along the lines of you're ignorant of outline and not fussed but hey ho maybe you're no good. (sorry I can't remember exactly what you said). I disagree, you're not a bad rider from that description, you're someone who won't damage a horse through trying to force an outline. That's a good thing.

OP, to answer your question, think of a round outline (the you're aiming for) as a "n" shape, a tense hollow outline as a "u" shape, and a flat relaxed outline as a "-" shape. So if you have a tense hollow horse, the first thing you need is for it to relax. It's easier to get from "-" to "n", than to get from "u" to "n". Hope that makes sense.

Horses relax by being allowed to stretch through their neck and back, by the rider having a balanced position and not holding onto the reins too tightly or having the reins too short. Sometimes when the contact becomes heavy its not the horse tipping onto the forehand more and leaning on the bit, its the horse relaxing and trying to take the rein forward to lower the neck. In this instance rather than asking the horse to pick himself up and go forward, which you would if he was leaning, you need to let the reins out a little so the horse can stretch. Sometimes you have to offer the chance to stretch, the horse won't always ask. Some horses find stretching very hard at first and will only do it for a few moments before going hollow again. To be relaxed the horse also needs to be supple laterally (side to side), so circles and corners etc need to be ridden properly with the horse bending round the riders inside leg, rather than leaning in onto the horses inside shoulder and cutting corners.

A round outline is achieved by engaging the hocks, but the horse needs first to be relaxed before the hocks can be engaged. Engagement is achieved with transitions, lateral work (horse moving forwards and sideways at the same time, by crossing the legs) and tighter turns etc. As the hocks engage, the quarters lower, the back raises and when those two things happen, the head automatically comes down and the "n" shape is created. Think of the bars of the letter "n" as the head/neck and the quarters and the top of the letter "n" as the back. Hope this helps.

To the poster asking if "loops in the reins" which someone mentioned, was a typo. No, its not. A horse in self-carriage may have a very light contact on the mouth. The weight of the reins themselves may provide the contact without any pressure from the riders hands. Many classical dressage riders aim to ultimately ride like this. This is also how horses ridden in bitless brides, and western trained horses, can be moving in a balanced round outline, with either no bit and/or no obvious contact on the mouth.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

That's interesting what some have said about the Olympics. I enjoyed watching the dressage, but considering these are supposed to be the worlds elite, I was disappointed by some of the riding and the tension shown in some of the horses. I thought I was the only one who felt this way. It's nice to know I'm not alone.

 

[AprilBlue]

OP from a couple of other threads you've started recently I really think you are trying to run before you can walk with getting the horse in an outline.

i sorry but i was only asking for advice and help, i just want to have the knowledge for when i'm older and when i will be able to get a horse. i'm just trying to be prepared. one my threads: list of horsey things to do, it was either me or someone else(i can't remember) said that i should read every scrap of equine information i can so i'm doing my best. It's better to be safe than sorry.

of course im not going to try an outline at my RS because the horses don't know what it is but i'm just trying to learn more about horses and riding so i can improve. i don't see that as trying to walk before i run. maybe you misunderstood me, i don't know but i just want to increase my knowledge about horses

 

[AprilBlue]

That's interesting what some have said about the Olympics. I enjoyed watching the dressage, but considering these are supposed to be the worlds elite, I was disappointed by some of the riding and the tension shown in some of the horses. I thought I was the only one who felt this way. It's nice to know I'm not alone.

yeah, i agree with you.