how do you get a horse into an outline???

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Interesting comments, nice to read. Can I have some cc on the above please?
 
Not bad. A balanced rider, a mostly relaxed horse who appears to be almost tracking up (back hoofs landing in the prints of front hoofs) but not quite, meaning the hind quarters are lacking engagement and there may be a little tension in the back. There looks to be no moment of suspension (all hoofs off the ground) in the trot either,which indicates the horse lacking impulsion. The head is where you would expect it to be (slightly above the bit) given the horses overall level of engagement. This indicates the horse is not being pulled into an artificial "outline". Looks like it would ve a nice uncomplicated horse to ride. :) Appologies for the basics guide in brackets, I'm not meaning to be patronizing, but this thread was started by an eager-to-learn novice who may not know these things.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
Not bad. A balanced rider, a mostly relaxed horse who appears to be almost tracking up (back hoofs landing in the prints of front hoofs) but not quite, meaning the hind quarters are lacking engagement and there may be a little tension in the back. There looks to be no moment of suspension (all hoofs off the ground) in the trot either,which indicates the horse lacking impulsion. The head is where you would expect it to be (slightly above the bit) given the horses overall level of engagement. This indicates the horse is not being pulled into an artificial "outline". Looks like it would ve a nice uncomplicated horse to ride. :) Appologies for the basics guide in brackets, I'm not meaning to be patronizing, but this thread was started by an eager-to-learn novice who may not know these things.
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no that's fantastic thank you very much!
 
Cortez said:
Afraid I'm going to agree with you here; The horse is behind the vertical, your arm is creating a broken line to the mouth, the horse's footfall is incorrect and it's on the forehand. Beware of making statements / posting pics on HHO! second picture is actually preferable!
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Agree in retrospect........ after my lesson today.......... thank you.
 
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When you have rhythm, looseness, contact, impulsion and straightness, then you will have collection ("in a frame" is just a headset without the foregoing requirements).
 
Farma said:
I'm really sorry if this is controversial but the first pic doesn't look like a horse truly on the bit, although it is in an outline it looks held by the riders arm almost straight with an inward hand, and tilted forward slightly.
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I agree, first one is on the forehand, second pic looks much happier and more comfortable - even if his nose isn't tucked in....
 
You school without a rider over poles of varying heights. This helps the horse to develop the muscles required to carry a rider and work on an outline.
When he is ready he will do it !!!
Time and patience are the key.
 
Actually op on the right horse you could experience what a horse feels like when working properly. As long as your seat is balanced enough not to interfere, even if you don't know the aids to ask yourself, you could experience it on the lunge, if you have access to a horse that has the training. In an ideal world, that's really how everyone should learn, balanced, independent seat, then experience what a horse working properly should feel like before learning how to ask for it themselves. It's easier to learn it right at first than learn wrong & years later try to unlearn bad habits.
 
Personally, I don't like the Heather Moffatt picture. The horse is in a curb bit (why would you need one for a horse that is so light? Though I appreciate it is more of a tradition in classical riding). Her hands are lifted up more like you would in western riding and there is therefore a broken axis from elbow to mouth. The horse is holding himself and is actually quite hollow in the back, which to me indicates he may have been encouraged to go this way through fear of the bit. But that's just my opinion.
 
I didn't find s&s patronizing. That reply was in response to another poster, so I assumed that s&s was just trying to also help op, who by own admission is a novice, with the response. Not sure that politely trying to help a novice who's asked for explanations is patronizing.
 
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Wagtail said:
Personally, I don't like the Heather Moffatt picture. The horse is in a curb bit (why would you need one for a horse that is so light? Though I appreciate it is more of a tradition in classical riding). Her hands are lifted up more like you would in western riding and there is therefore a broken axis from elbow to mouth. The horse is holding himself and is actually quite hollow in the back, which to me indicates he may have been encouraged to go this way through fear of the bit. But that's just my opinion.
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I agree with this also, I would prefer to see the horse moving forward into a light receiving contact.

Very interesting thread though to see what peoples ideas of an 'outline' is, must be confusing for someone new to it all though.

To the OP; I find that reading books and watching dvds by instructors/lecturers really helps, Arthur Kottas/ Phillpe Karl/ Gerd Heusschman et al wll give you a good biomechanic understanding and then with greater understanding you will be able to apply some techniquies yourself when riding. If you get a chance to go to any of the lecture demos these are especially helpful.

Feel free to pm me if you would like any details x
 
showqa said:
IMHO, you shouldn't even really be thinking about it. There's too much emphasis on where the head is rather than what is happening behind the saddle and the rider's leg. Essentially, for a horse to be in an outline it has to be working over its back, and from behind with it's pelvis tucked under. If the horse isn't engaged behind then there's no chance of a true outline being produced - only a false one, which is both pointless and dangerous to the muscular development of the horse. As another poster has said, it takes a long time for a horse to develop physically in this way. With my horse, I don't DO anything infront as such, I work the horse very much from behind, lots of transitions, getting him moving forward and in front of my leg and allowing with my hands. It's no coincidence that once he's properly working, he offers an outline naturally.

I would much rather see a horse in his natural outline but actually going forward and working correctly, than shuffling around with his head tucked in and his back end going nowhere.
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This very good advice I had issues with my mare and lots of people told me lots of different things I took the good bits of advice and discarded the rest, the key with my mare was she hated fussing and like any horse had to be working from behind, 2 months down the line of basic schooling sessions building up from engine ie off the leg, lots of transitions, inside bend circles, shoulder in, engagement of the hind quarters, spiralling in / out on circles, squares, she is in an outline naturally and my reins are normally slightly slack she is definitely a less is more, I always follow these building blocks and thrown in a forward canter long side collect up for corner as this really gets her thinking forward and makes her open up, I tend to start my main walk work halfway and towards the end as this is when she is most supple and gives me her best work......everything we do is biased towards thinking forward so hacking is a good brisk walk lunging is getting active paces, not settling for a mediocre walk or trot ....horses are canny creatures that train us!!
 
You don't put a curb bit on to achieve a light horse, you put a curb bit on an already light horse so you can refine the aids and make them almost invisible. So wagtail and farma you are right, in that no really well trained horse *needs* a curb bit.
 
After many many years riding horses at all kinds of levels of training, I have yet to understand the need for the curb bit and the spurs 'to refine the aids and make them almost invisible'. I (personally) do not find the aids on a well schooled horse are any more visible when riding without spurs and in a snaffle. This is my experience. I believe that double bridles are compulsory in some competitions mainly due to tradition.
 
OP its nice to see you have an enquiring mind :)

If your riding school is very showjumping focussed, the only way to learn about an outline is going to have to be to ho elsewhere for instruction. Its perfectly okay if you don't want to do that yet, i'm sure you are getting lots of other things out of your lessons there :)
 
Slightly strangely Bree was going in a lovely outline out on our hack today - we'd just got past the motorway, which is a little scary and gone up a hill, so I'd encouraged her to engage her back end well up this. At the top she relaxed a little as she usually does once she gets away from the thundering trucks and dropped her head into a lovely outline. Of course 100 yards on there were killer sheep so it was back to looky, looky. :rolleyes:

Paula
 
Forward, through, light, on the bit and in an outline.

How to do it - a good teacher and hours of progessive work.
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AdorableAlice said:
Forward, through, light, on the bit and in an outline.

How to do it - a good teacher and hours of progessive work.
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I dont mean to be picky but that horse does not have the poll at the highest point, it looks like its breaking at the 2nd - its only a snapshot in time but to me that is BTV.
 
Farma said:
I dont mean to be picky but that horse does not have the poll at the highest point, it looks like its breaking at the 2nd - its only a snapshot in time but to me that is BTV.
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Often, if the poll is the highest point the horse is tense at the withers and not properly stretched over its back. Also, it is impossible to work a horse long and low and deep if the poll is the highest point. I have never liked this particular 'rule'. Many horses with a good crest for example cannot work with the poll at the highest point if they are working correctly. Conversely, a horse that is above the bit can have its poll at the highest point. It's a strange ruling in my opinion.

I do however think the rider's reins are too short in the photograph, but the horse is in a lovely up hill outline.
 
I promise I have read the whole thread, but my memory seems to be going ;) so sorry if I repeat anyone.

There is no such thing as 'an outline'. A young horse carrying itself well will have a different frame from a Grand Prix horse during a test. Different movements (collected/extended) will require a slightly different frame in order to carry out the physical component of the movement.

If you have a horse moving freely forward, who is supple, flexible, has a good rhythm and who isn't being hindered by their rider, he/she should in time, and barring any injury or serious conformation faults, be able to carry himself well, and 'an outline' is likely to develop.

A horse can be poll high, head on the vertical and not be working happily. Focusing on what the front end is doing can quickly stifle correct movement; the power comes from the hindquarters and too often an inappropriate contact prevents the hind legs from moving well.

Here is a photo, on first glance it could appear that the horse is in 'an outline' (though it is a novice horse and rider doing their first ODE, so we're not looking for a GP dressage horse's frame!)

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However, horse is not tracking up, rider has lost the contact by turning her hands in and doing rather bizarre things with her right elbow :rolleyes:, and while I think the overall picture is not bad, there is no real power to the trot. The horse's mouth is slightly open which suggests some resistance to the contact. However, at lower levels, this sort of outline tends to be rewarded, and it is only when horse and rider progress through the levels that the 'block' becomes more apparent.

OP - can I recommend the book 'A young person's guide to dressage' as a good introductory text, it explains basic principles really well IMO :) You have started a really interesting discussion here!
 
lula- yes, lol! We used to do that when we were very little to persuade our ponies to tuck their noses in :D Poor buggers, they were ever so obliging but we still got crap marks!

How about this?
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I am endlessly jealous of her good hands! Mine seem to sit on the pommel no matter how hard I work!
 
Lolo said:
lula- yes, lol! We used to do that when we were very little to persuade our ponies to tuck their noses in :D Poor buggers, they were ever so obliging but we still got crap marks!

How about this?
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I am endlessly jealous of her good hands! Mine seem to sit on the pommel no matter how hard I work!
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Is this you or someone else? Horse is on the forehand, not tracking up. Rider is gripping up with her knees. On the plus side, the line is nice and straight from elbow to bit.
 
Farma said:
I dont mean to be picky but that horse does not have the poll at the highest point, it looks like its breaking at the 2nd - its only a snapshot in time but to me that is BTV.
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What does breaking at the 2nd mean please ? The horse is 17.2h and I took that picture as he reached the end of extended canter. He is slightly behind the vertical in the picture but it does show the uphill and power from behind created by impulsion. Here is a picture of him in his double bridle, he is naturally built uphill and appears to be 'on the bridle/in an outline', even when stood still, Sadly injury ended his prolific career as a dressage horse and top middlewieght hunter. I find it fascinating to listen to other opinions, it is easy to miss so much when you are only with your own horses all the time.
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Here are a couple of pictures of a recently purchased horse that although looking like it should find going in an outline reasonably easy, cannot, it's a very young 6 and has been prevented from going forward for the last 2 years, by a well meaning but frightened and nervous rider. The cob is very willing and that combined with unbalanced paces was a problem for the previous owner, resulting in the cobs mouth being used as a balancing point.

Probably what the OP is experiencing, it's all strung out with a hollow back. All the work is done in walk, transistions within walk and halts, using a square with 1/4 turns to help the shoulders come up. The last picture shows her picking her back up for a split second. The horse is in week 7 with us and improving everyday, it will take all winter and probably beyond to get her right, together with endless patience. Today she went for a romp in the stubble and kept her balance for a few steps of trot. It is hoped she will forgot her previous experiences of having her mouth used as a balancing point, and go on to be a real fun horse with a bit maxi cob showing and hunting.

CC on this horse please.

Please excuse the tea towel in the girth, she was bitten by a horsefly and has a sore patch. AND - the hat - we all have a choice !. The draw rein is used sparingly and will come off when the penny completely drops.
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