how do you get a horse into an outline???

[Lolo]

AA: your horses are stunning, very very smart

Wagtail- I agree with the knee-pinching (about to do a downwards transition I think), and he was beginning to droop- dressage running behind, so his 15 minute warm up became 25 and despite lots of walking it was too much. Still got a 31 score, leaving them about 3rd/30 And it's my sister, not me! Thanks for the hands comment- she's worked long and hard at bringing them back up after instructors who taught her to ride with them down, and now I think they're her best thing

How would you rate a naturally downhill young horse working like this:

(slowly coming round in her own time- now working on coming up a little more as she develops better balance and rhythm)

On grass in the open for the first time, hence the slightly 'bright' look going on!

 

[pootleperkin]

I'd like to play too

So this is Gully doing his first prelim - the pics are representative of him most of the time during the test.

He is behind the vertical and downhill. Other than that, I am quite happy with the pic - he was working through from behind, tracking up and taking me forward - my hands were able to come soft and he wasn't leaning. The judge commented that we had a nice, elastic contact.

Same here:

At this stage in his training, I know his default is to fall onto his forehand. We are working, constantly, on him getting fitter, muscling up across his back and starting to take more weight behind - it's going to take time. So, perhaps contraversially, I'm not too worried about him occasionally going overbent. As long as he feels light in the hand with a soft jaw and is actively moving forward, I think at the stage he is at, it's ok......any thoughts?

As he is starting to get more muscled up, I'm having to watch that he isn't starting lean on the hand to evade working up and through - to me it's all about the weight in the rein at the moment. Oh yeah, and I need to sit up more with my shoulders back!

This is a pic of him a couple of weeks later doing prelim 14, and he actually felt heavier in the hand, his jaw wasn't soft and he wasn't working through as well, but arguably, his 'outline' is better in terms of vertical. I find it all really fascinating -I think pics being a moment in time rather than a feeling and acceptance of stage of training, can sometimes confuse us - well, me anyway!

 

[Wagtail]

AA: your horses are stunning, very very smart

Wagtail- I agree with the knee-pinching (about to do a downwards transition I think), and he was beginning to droop- dressage running behind, so his 15 minute warm up became 25 and despite lots of walking it was too much. Still got a 31 score, leaving them about 3rd/30 And it's my sister, not me! Thanks for the hands comment- she's worked long and hard at bringing them back up after instructors who taught her to ride with them down, and now I think they're her best thing

How would you rate a naturally downhill young horse working like this:

(slowly coming round in her own time- now working on coming up a little more as she develops better balance and rhythm)

He's about where you would want him for a young slightly down hill horse. Rider needs to sit up more, lengthen the rein slightly and bend her elbows.

On grass in the open for the first time, hence the slightly 'bright' look going on!

Love this one. He has lifted his forehand considerably. Even though he is above the bit it is a much nicer picture with far more impulsion than the first pic.

 

[Wagtail]

I'd like to play too

So this is Gully doing his first prelim - the pics are representative of him most of the time during the test.

He is behind the vertical and downhill. Other than that, I am quite happy with the pic - he was working through from behind, tracking up and taking me forward - my hands were able to come soft and he wasn't leaning. The judge commented that we had a nice, elastic contact.

Same here:

At this stage in his training, I know his default is to fall onto his forehand. We are working, constantly, on him getting fitter, muscling up across his back and starting to take more weight behind - it's going to take time. So, perhaps contraversially, I'm not too worried about him occasionally going overbent. As long as he feels light in the hand with a soft jaw and is actively moving forward, I think at the stage he is at, it's ok......any thoughts?

As he is starting to get more muscled up, I'm having to watch that he isn't starting lean on the hand to evade working up and through - to me it's all about the weight in the rein at the moment. Oh yeah, and I need to sit up more with my shoulders back!

This is a pic of him a couple of weeks later doing prelim 14, and he actually felt heavier in the hand, his jaw wasn't soft and he wasn't working through as well, but arguably, his 'outline' is better in terms of vertical. I find it all really fascinating -I think pics being a moment in time rather than a feeling and acceptance of stage of training, can sometimes confuse us - well, me anyway!

You make a very pleasing picture together. Horse is tracking up well, you have about the right length of rein which makes a direct line from elbow to mouth. Yes he is slightly on the forehand but I wouldn't be worrying too much about that as it is very minimal.

 

[pootleperkin]

Thanks Wagtail - I start to over analyse and so am incapable of seeing him as anything other than on the forehand!!

I do think that if I can eventually get my shoulderblades to behave and stay back, it will help him start to sit more too! What do you reckon to him being BTV? Same thoughts as me on the subject at this stage?

 

[Wagtail]

Thanks Wagtail - I start to over analyse and so am incapable of seeing him as anything other than on the forehand!!

I do think that if I can eventually get my shoulderblades to behave and stay back, it will help him start to sit more too! What do you reckon to him being BTV? Same thoughts as me on the subject at this stage?

Personally, at this stage it does not bother me as he is being ridden in a lower outline. Behind the vertical is only a problem with horses that are being ridden at a more advanced higher outline IMO.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

AA perhaps if all riders could sit like the one in your pics, then all horses would learn to go well, carrying themselves 'in an outline'. When will people realise that it is *the rider* who needs to be correct in order for the horse to be correct?
Whilst I prefer not to use draw reins myself and always wear a hat, IMO, anyone who can ride like that rider can do what the heck he pleases.
I watch some 'dressage' riders with heads like nodding dogs, feet flapping, and fingers twitching who seriously think that their horses are going well. I certainly don't agree with them. In fact, I despair. Who teaches these people?

 

[Farma]

I'd like to play too

So this is Gully doing his first prelim - the pics are representative of him most of the time during the test.

He is behind the vertical and downhill. Other than that, I am quite happy with the pic - he was working through from behind, tracking up and taking me forward - my hands were able to come soft and he wasn't leaning. The judge commented that we had a nice, elastic contact.

Same here:

At this stage in his training, I know his default is to fall onto his forehand. We are working, constantly, on him getting fitter, muscling up across his back and starting to take more weight behind - it's going to take time. So, perhaps contraversially, I'm not too worried about him occasionally going overbent. As long as he feels light in the hand with a soft jaw and is actively moving forward, I think at the stage he is at, it's ok......any thoughts?

As he is starting to get more muscled up, I'm having to watch that he isn't starting lean on the hand to evade working up and through - to me it's all about the weight in the rein at the moment. Oh yeah, and I need to sit up more with my shoulders back!

This is a pic of him a couple of weeks later doing prelim 14, and he actually felt heavier in the hand, his jaw wasn't soft and he wasn't working through as well, but arguably, his 'outline' is better in terms of vertical. I find it all really fascinating -I think pics being a moment in time rather than a feeling and acceptance of stage of training, can sometimes confuse us - well, me anyway!

Really like these pics, I wouldn't say he was downhill just a tad on the forehand and btv in one of the pics but overall a nice picture of horse and rider. I would be pleased if he was mine

 

[Lolo]

Love this one. He has lifted his forehand considerably. Even though he is above the bit it is a much nicer picture with far more impulsion than the first pic.

Yep, it's about 4 weeks on in terms of her schooling (first photo, she'd been rebacked for about 10 weeks, now she's pushing 4 months! Time flies!) and it's really clear. At home she's got the second photo but on the bit. Tomorrow's her first dressage- she'll be back to photo 1 I think, as she will be quite goggly-eyed about being shoved into an arena all alone with another horse doing a test next doors!

Gully is lush!

 

[Booboos]

Just my two pennies worth on the loose reins discussion...for me if a horse is engaged from behind it is impossible to have loose reins (as in the horse is an outline and the reins are looping) because there is so much power coming from behind and into the rein. The power is still used through the back to elevate the shoulder so the horse is not hanging on the rein but on a scale of 1 to 10 where 10 is terribly on the forehand, correct contact weight is 5 and not 1. The only horses I have ridden that have had a very light contact were the ones that were tight through the back and even tighter through the neck and BTV.

 

[Tr0uble]

Can I play?

This is my 5 year old a couple of months ago (he's had time off with pneumonia) his recurrent bad habit is to be slightly against my hand and a bit long in the frame, making "sit" difficult.

[Content removed]

 

[pootleperkin]

Thanks Farma, I am very pleased with him! But always room for improvement!

 

[AdorableAlice]

AA perhaps if all riders could sit like the one in your pics, then all horses would learn to go well, carrying themselves 'in an outline'. When will people realise that it is *the rider* who needs to be correct in order for the horse to be correct?
Whilst I prefer not to use draw reins myself and always wear a hat, IMO, anyone who can ride like that rider can do what the heck he pleases.
I watch some 'dressage' riders with heads like nodding dogs, feet flapping, and fingers twitching who seriously think that their horses are going well. I certainly don't agree with them. In fact, I despair. Who teaches these people?

That is a lovely comment. The rider is a dear friend, a semi retired teacher who has been blessed with balance and feel, I won't reveal his age in case he reads this, but you would be very surprised !, He is an amateur and is taught by Gill Rose and Jenny Key, both of whom will not allow a horse out of walk until self carriage is established. The big bay horse took him from riding club prelims to BD nationals and Hoys between 2006 and 2010. The horse is mine, but as you say, a horse is only a good as the rider, and I am short, fat and windy, so the horse would have no flipping chance with me bobbling about on top of him.

I attended most of the lessons and he has an amazing ability to remember everything told to him and keep it for future use, something I have never mastered regardless of the subject ! He also has the most endless patience, that cob is a mare and a very clever one that has mastered evasion, but he has gently persuaded her to give and soften, it has been wonderful to watch the mare's eye soften and her neck relax as she realises no one is going to swing off her back teeth. She is being schooled for me to ride and is more suitable for me in my old age.

To be fair he does wear his hat, he does a lot of work on foot with the cob, getting her to leg yield and cross her hind feet over. He had done the ground work, got very hot and got on her hatless when the pictures were taken. There was 3 of us shouting hat, hat at him.

Thank you for your lovely comment I will tell him.

 

[Wagtail]

Can I play?

This is my 5 year old a couple of months ago (he's had time off with pneumonia) his recurrent bad habit is to be slightly against my hand and a bit long in the frame, making "sit" difficult.

Wow look at that hindleg action! Lovely boy. I would want him off my hands a bit, but that is just my preference. He is using the hand to balance, but that is not surprising with all that power coming from behind and having to go somewhere. Once he learns to balance and carry himself he should lighten up. I would be using half halts and transitions but giving him nothing to lean against. Drop him for a milisecond after the half halt before picking up again. He should start to carry himself more.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Really enjoying the photos and cc. Keep them coming please.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

That is a lovely comment. The rider is a dear friend, a semi retired teacher who has been blessed with balance and feel, I won't reveal his age in case he reads this, but you would be very surprised !, .

Thank you for your lovely comment I will tell him.

You are welcome!

My first reaction when I saw your photos was 'Wow!'

Your friend reminds me of my first (and best) RI. He has retired after suffering a stroke, although he still rides and judges BSPS classes. He is now 85 and I did comment on the resemblance, although saying that your friend is obviously younger.

 

[Tr0uble]

Yes he was just starting to soften much more to my hand (he's not massively heavy or hard on my hands, but I would like him to back off a little more) at our last BD outing (bottom pic) then it started going very downhill...very frustrating until we discovered he was really quite ill (pneumonia...no outward symptoms other than lethargy)

He does have a lot of power from the back end! I can't wait until we get strong enough to use it! At the moment the front end struggles to keep up with the back end so sometimes het a bit shuffly and muddled in front...but he's a baby (a big one at that!) and it'll come.

Currently using a lot of walk to canter, canter to walk, rein back to trot and working-medium and back again to help lighten him, and lots of leg yield before transitions to get him better engaged.

 

[pootleperkin]

AA - I also thought that your rider looked fab - completely centred in the saddle. The horses are also lovely, partic. love the picture of them about to go in the show ring - the horse's conformation looks so balanced front to rear.

PS - thanks Lolo - I think Gully is lush too

 

[mrsk29]

ok can i play 2... weve been learning dressage for 3 months so im still learning what all the terms mean for things...

thoughts?

 

[AdorableAlice]

Isn't it lovely to see so many pictures of beautiful horses. We are fortunate people to have these creatures in our lives.

My bay is Selle Francias and only one hunter judge ever got it right. He is show jump bred, by Qyou De Longvaut who is by I Love You/Alme.

I know nothing about showjumping but have been told it is impressive bloodlines. He hates jumping so it's academic ! didn't stop him strutting his stuff in other arena's. I am just hoping he can enjoy retirement pain free.

 

[pootleperkin]

ok can i play 2... weve been learning dressage for 3 months so im still learning what all the terms mean for things...

thoughts?

I'll have a go at the cc

I like the first pic much better than the second. In the first, he is tracking up into a contact and you look in a nice secure position, although you hands are a bit unlevel. He is a little way behind the vertical, but looks quite soft and through, so not too much of a problem. The more I look, the more I think it looks nice

In the second pic, he isn't going forward - you look tense (partic. through your shoulders) and there is no contact. He is disconnected, front to rear - looks to me like he is dropping behind the contact to evade going forward - IMO you need to sit deeper, as in the first pic and push him on into the hand to get him back towards the vertical.

Anyone else?

 

[rhino]

I'll have a go at the cc

I like the first pic much better than the second. In the first, he is tracking up into a contact and you look in a nice secure position, although you hands are a bit unlevel. He is a little way behind the vertical, but looks quite soft and through, so not too much of a problem. The more I look, the more I think it looks nice

In the second pic, he isn't going forward - you look tense (partic. through your shoulders) and there is no contact. He is disconnected, front to rear - looks to me like he is dropping behind the contact to evade going forward - IMO you need to sit deeper, as in the first pic and push him on into the hand to get him back towards the vertical.

Anyone else?

I'd pretty much agree, definite work in progress but plenty of potential. I'd love to see an untacked, stood up photo of that horse to assess his conformation.

I posted a photo earlier, with my own CC. Anyone agree/disagree with what I said?

 

[Wagtail]

I'd pretty much agree, definite work in progress but plenty of potential. I'd love to see an untacked, stood up photo of that horse to assess his conformation.

I posted a photo earlier, with my own CC. Anyone agree/disagree with what I said?

I completely agree with all that you said. Was that you?

 

[Wagtail]

I'll have a go at the cc

I like the first pic much better than the second. In the first, he is tracking up into a contact and you look in a nice secure position, although you hands are a bit unlevel. He is a little way behind the vertical, but looks quite soft and through, so not too much of a problem. The more I look, the more I think it looks nice

In the second pic, he isn't going forward - you look tense (partic. through your shoulders) and there is no contact. He is disconnected, front to rear - looks to me like he is dropping behind the contact to evade going forward - IMO you need to sit deeper, as in the first pic and push him on into the hand to get him back towards the vertical.

Anyone else?

Well put. I agree, although in the first pic, the rider is leaning slightly backwards and it looks as though the horse is taking a real pull. But lovely action.

 

[rhino]

I completely agree with all that you said. Was that you?

Yes I'm proud of that photo, we both did the best job we could do at the time, but it also makes me cringe now. He was unbeaten ODE and very rarely unplaced Dressage (Pr/Nov and Nov/Int RC teams) but it was most definitely not correct!

 

[mrsk29]

I'd pretty much agree, definite work in progress but plenty of potential. I'd love to see an untacked, stood up photo of that horse to assess his conformation.

I posted a photo earlier, with my own CC. Anyone agree/disagree with what I said?

untacked.. taken about 2 months ago..lacking topline but hes a bit more muscled up now...

 

[Holly Hocks]

This is my lovely ex-racer Rebel who was PTS last October aged 21 - this photo was taken about 18 months earlier. Apart from my shoddy position (I know I perch - you don't need to tell me! ) how did he look?

And these are a couple of my other ex-racer taken six days after she came out of racing (again I know I am perching!) I know she is on the forehand too, but she had done
nothing but race before. She is also in far better condition now (a little too good!!)

 

[JFTDWS]

rhino, I thought your comments seemed justified, though very much on the hyper-critical side

can I play?

On a better day, mine goes a bit like this...

despite me doing horrible pully things with my inside hand

However, I have a horrible habit of dropping my hands and making him tense, blocking him coming through behind etc.

(last photo is really vile, I know)

 

[mrsk29]

I'll have a go at the cc

I like the first pic much better than the second. In the first, he is tracking up into a contact and you look in a nice secure position, although you hands are a bit unlevel. He is a little way behind the vertical, but looks quite soft and through, so not too much of a problem. The more I look, the more I think it looks nice

In the second pic, he isn't going forward - you look tense (partic. through your shoulders) and there is no contact. He is disconnected, front to rear - looks to me like he is dropping behind the contact to evade going forward - IMO you need to sit deeper, as in the first pic and push him on into the hand to get him back towards the vertical.

Anyone else?

I was petrified lol only our 2nd test... the first pic was near the end of the test we were more relaxed... what does working behind the vertical mean?

 

[rhino]

Thanks He's a very sweet looking horse, but he is not going to find it as easy to work correctly as some others, I don't think. His neck is set on a tad low, and is a slight ewe neck, nothing major but he may well find it difficult to 'lift' and flex, and will make him look on the forehand, even if he isn't. He's also a bit long in the back (which I personally don't mind) and in that photo a little weak through the quarters - particularly lacking in his 2nd thigh.

Fab shoulder so could well have the potential for 'big' paces - as was suggested by your first picture under saddle Lots of steady work, lots of lateral suppleness, and I think he'll be rather nice!

Sorry if that sounds bad, I like him, and I find the link between conformation and way of going absolutely fascinating There is no such thing as a horse with perfect conformation, so it is about learning how to make things easier for them.