How do you improve submission in a dominant horse?

[Andiamo]

Does anyone have any pearls of wisdom on how to improve submission in a dominant horse? i.e. acceptance of the bridle etc?

My boy has regressed this week and been an absolute plonker. He is spooking and napping for England, and has become very very difficult to ride...I changed yards about 2 weeks ago and it has really upset him. In the arena, he wants to throw his head up to gawk at things in trot and canter, and I'm having none of it, and well, we've fallen out over it he's half passing due to spooking, he's changing direction in canter in mid-air without being asked (because he doesn't want to go past something).

I want him to slow down in canter - he currently gallops around the place like his backside is on fire, and he ignores my half halts, tweaks (then yanks) on the outside rein to slow down to bring it back to a canter - I have to lean back and give an almighty heave-ho on both reins to pull him in and slow him down - the slower canter lasts for about 3 strides then he's off to the races again. He's meant to be a dressage horse, not a race horse or an eventer - although we look like both of these when we're hurtling around at top speed. No amount of transitions helps. I do a lot of relaxation work with him at the start of each session. I'm very consistent. He gets variety in his week, every week. He's turned out from 7am - 3:30pm each day. Feed is fine and hasn't changed. Back is fine, saddle is fine, tack has not changed, teeth are fine.
It's just the change in yards that has got his big man-pants in an uproar...well that, and the field of hairy and amorous Highland cows & bulls which live one field away from the arena.


Should I:
- ride really strong / tough no matter what he does to show I won't stand for it? and just give more time for him to settle?
- let a pro ride him for a couple of days to sort him out, get him to be more respectful and submissive?

I'm a fairly experienced rider, I've been through a lot of ups and downs with this horse, and therefore I'd prefer to sort it out myself, rather than hand him over to someone else who may / may not be able to improve things.
I would appreciate any tips you might have.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Mearas]

IMHO your horse sounds very anxious and stressed by his move. I really don't think that riding him strongly would help, it would just add more stress and more anxiety. TBH I think putting a pro (strange rider) on would again just make him more stressed and more dominant.

May I suggest that for a while you go back a few steps. Just walk him so he has time to take in his new surroundings. You can work him in shoulder in, travers, renvers etc. on the straight or on circles, which will occupy his mind so he won't want to take charge and keep him interested. But, it should not stress him to much until he has dealt with the overload of new smells, sights, sounds, horses, people, activity, routine etc. it will just help to keep him supple and fit until his brain has dealt with all the new information he is taking in.

 

[Andiamo]

Thanks Mearas. The problem is, that every time we go to a show, his behaviour is exactly like this as well. I would like to push him through it, and show him that he can be brave, things are not as scary as he thinks, and also that he needs to respect me as his rider. Yeah, putting a different rider on him will just introduce inconsistency and will make him more anxious, which I worry about.
He needs to deal with his new environment - he's ok to turn out / bring in, groom, he's happy in his box. He's ok to walk around in hand in the arena.
He has a very high energy level, and it needs to be burned off with work, otherwise his behaviour gets worse, so I couldn't just walk for a few days, he'd lose the plot altogether. He is an intelligent, active horse that needs daily work.
But he also needs to be submissive, and must accept the bridle. It's also where he loses marks in tests at show venues. It's an overall problem, not just specifically related to change of yard.

 

[AusRider]

Hi OP, I had a horse something like yours, and had to move him to a new place. He behaved much like yours did and he should have known better - he was a 22yo ex-1* eventer after all! For example, the first few times I rode him at the new place, I made sure I had a plan in place. First 'ride' consisted of lunging for 20 min or so, then a 5 min ride under saddle, just walking around, then end on a good note. Second ride was 10 min lunging, and then into our usual 45 min schooling session. Third ride I would not lunge, but get straight on and school for 45 min or so. It helps to have a plan in place for when he has decided that he isn't going to be cooperative.

After he had become used to our new place, then there were other things I would do if he decided he wasn't going to play. One time, he was coming back into work and I wasn't able to lunge him, so his jump saddle went on, and we did 20m canter circles, then medium canter on the straight, into another canter circle, repeat, for 20 minutes. After he calmed down somewhat, we then repeated the exercise in trot with 10m circles and medium trot on the straight. Subsitute whatever exercises work for your pony . Its important to set you and the horse up for success so that you feel good about the session, and so does the horse.

In your case, I would look for a few exercises under saddle that will help your horse burn off the anxious energy that he has, and help him to turn his mind back onto the job.

Hope this helps.

 

[cptrayes]

He isn't a chestnut KWPN by any chance is he ?

Mine was identical. He wouldn't even hack, he was too scared of daffodils on the verge
I'm afraid mine took 6 years to calm down, then he died!

They key to mine was that at eight I spent three months doing transitions or turns, anything to make him realise that he simply had to focus on me, every ten strides or less. That worked, but it was a difficult three months! He was also completely uncontrollable in a snaffle, so was always ridden in a double to school or he would leave the arena either through or over the fence. If you have decent hands, don't be afraid to go for a double and compete at elementary.

If you are sure he has settled in the new home on the ground, then I would try the "change every ten strides" training and see what happens. I am sure it was the key to mine.

 

[Andiamo]

@AusRider - thanks for this. Yes, I have been doing something similar, have been lunging him before starting. Two days ago, he was being such a nutter, that I had to get off and lunge him for twenty minutes to burn off his frantic panicked energy. Then I got back on, he was still uncooperative, but at least I'd gotten some of the nonsense (bronc'ing) out of him on the lunge.

@cptrayes - nope, not a KWPN goodness, yours sounded like a handful! - mine doesn't hack either, you'd take your life in your hands to hack him. I have generously offered other people to hack him, but haven't had any takers yet (I even included the loan of a Point 2 airvest for the duration of the hack), but still no takers

The double bridle is a good idea, I might borrow one from someone to try it. I have experience using a double, and it might subdue him somewhat, as I know it is good for strong wilful horses. It would give some control back to me, as he is giving me the two fingers up in a snaffle (he is in a really mild bit - which offers no control).
I will also try the "every ten strides" trick. I generally do mix it up, I've been doing varying sizes of circles in canter - down to a ten meter circle, then leg yield out onto 20 meter, trot leg yield across the school, shoulder in - in walk and trot, changes of tempo within the pace (lots of these), lots of serpentines, centre lines. I just lose all his concentration no matter what, i.e. when we go past a certain point in the school (the gap in the trees where he can see the Highland cattle), and if a horse/rider walks by outside the school, if a bird flies by and looks at him, - and if there is anyone standing by the side of the arena he won't go near them. So, all the exercises I do are limited by the fact that he will suddenly stick his head up and pee off sideways at top speed.

I do feel a change of bit is imminent, he is taking the mick in the bit he's in.

We did some big arguments last night, he did get some jabs from me with spurs when he tried to spook into the school, and progressively throughout the session, it started to get better, and his attempts were half-hearted by the end of it, and we were using the whole school (Yay!)

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

He isn't a chestnut KWPN by any chance is he ?

Mine was identical. He wouldn't even hack, he was too scared of daffodils on the verge
I'm afraid mine took 6 years to calm down, then he died!

They key to mine was that at eight I spent three months doing transitions or turns, anything to make him realise that he simply had to focus on me, every ten strides or less. That worked, but it was a difficult three months! He was also completely uncontrollable in a snaffle, so was always ridden in a double to school or he would leave the arena either through or over the fence. If you have decent hands, don't be afraid to go for a double and compete at elementary.

If you are sure he has settled in the new home on the ground, then I would try the "change every ten strides" training and see what happens. I am sure it was the key to mine.

decent hands is one of only hundreds of things you should have before competing at elementary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!or in fact competing full stop!

CS is dominant in a different way (never strong or impolite in the contact) but IMO for your horse-even if the double works in the short term, long term he will find a way round it because thats what dominant horses do, he wont take it laying down even if it takes him a few weeks to work out how to evade it, he will eventually work it out.
you cannot use brute strength, you have to out think him thus i would leave the double well alone currently.
The double has its place and indeed some horses PREFER it,and you are on to a loser if the horse is already well used to the double, but i dont think thats the case here? he's not chosing it, or even going to work well in it, he's simply going to be contained by it, which is rather different!

Ausrider has good suggestions and i second the having a routine/plan idea-CS likes to know that we do the same warm up every time, even at a show or a lesson, he likes to feel he knows whats coming up, no suprises.

if he barges or rushes, halt, rein back/walk piri/turn on forehand, pat, and then trot or canter on-make it clear that there are consequences to his actions but these are firm and fair and corrective not aggressive.

CS is the opposite and will stop and threaten to rear, he doesnt even shoot off, so for him, any lag in response and he is made to do a good strong medium canter or medium trot then collected, then sent forward and the quick response praised.

 

[Alfami]

I feel your pain, but I also think this is a difficult one to answer, because only you know your horse and how he's likely to react to any of the suggestions above.

I personally think the 'do something different every ten strides' is a good idea. I took it one stage further with mine (with help from an excellent instructor) and each 'different thing' was something that he wasn't expecting and to some extent was designed to make him unbalanced - so he had to concentrate on me, or he'd have fallen over! The idea is basically to make him think 'what the F@** does this mad woman want NOW'!!! They quite quickly learn to listen and concentrate.

A good exercise for mine, was to ride a 10/12m trot circle (or walk if you prefer), then, as you start the second circle (ie you've ridden 1 1/2 normal 10m circles) change direction and start another 10m circle. You end up doing a series of 1 and a half 10m circles along a long side. (I reall hope that makes sense!) Depending on how well schooled he is, you can also do shoulder-in one one rein and change it into leg yield away from the other leg. Do anything you can to, effectively, knock him 'off balance', so that he has to think about being in balance rather than spooking. Rapid, unexpected changes of rein work too. Trot a diagonal, say off the left rein. Normally you'd turn right at the end - don't, turn left back onto the track, then go straight across the school instead. Anything unpredicatble will work, but plan it otherwise you'll end up wearing the arena fence!

There are some equally devious exercises for canter too, but the same principle applies - surprise him!

Good luck.

 

[Polotash]

Personally I'd stick him on the lunge for 20 mins before you ride him. A) this will take the edge off him B) it's a good lesson in respect for him because you are simply pushing him forward with the whip into the hand - nothing fancy and C) He'll be going round and round past the same spooky corner/ flower pot/ whatever else is spooking him and so should get used to it quicker.

 

[Andiamo]

all good points made above. Thanks everyone for your contribution.
He's not ready for Elementary anyway, he can't even get up the flippin' centre line in a Prelim/Novice test without doing an airborn zigzag up it due to spooking... his lack of respect (he is distracted easily) & tension issues need to be addressed before he can move up at all. I have gotten the comment in a few tests now from judges about him not accepting the bridle.

I need to capture and harness the nervous energy and turn it into expression and sparkle...the only way to do this is to be consequential... the Germans say "du musst Konsequent reiten" (I lived there for a few years, and was told this many times!) - basically - the rider must give a consequence for every action of the horse..., like Prince33Sp4rkle mentions in her post. Then they learn boundaries.
To be honest, he was a little angel at the previous yard, he still did daily frequent spooks, but about 80-90% of the session was good. Right now, only about 20% of the session is good....

 

[Supanova]

Interesting thread! I really think it depends on the individual horse - one of my mares is spooky like this and will spin round in canter and go in the other direction at times. The more i try to ride her strongly, the worse she gets. The only thing that works with her is relaxing and breathing and ignoring the spooks i.e. everytime i approach the spooky corner in the arena and i can feel her tensing, i just totally relax my body, breath and look round the corner so not looking at the spooky thing. This seems to really help her but then i actually think she is genuinely a big wimp and is fairly terrified of everything so she then gets confidence from me. If she was just being dominant and difficult i'm not sure it would have the same impact. Also, everytime she tries to run off, i make her halt and stand still for 10 seconds - this seems to work.

 

[Andiamo]

In my experience, a Pro uses their strength, confidence and sheer bl**dy grit to make them behave, and go past things etc. It pushes the horse through something he finds difficult, and it works.
A behavioral expert uses strategy. This works as well, if the owner is then shown how to handle the behaviour him/herself.

My boy is very disrespectful of the bridle, gets distracted easily. I want to stop these behaviours. A dressage horse needs to show submission, be submissive.
I think a combination of tactics is what is the key here...

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

i dont think its about strength that much- im around 7 stone 11 so could not use my strength to wrestle much in to submission at all......................i ride a very spooky horse for a client, comes round the corner every single time trying to hollow, throw quarters in and find somethign to spook at (when he will then fling head up again and spin, go disunited or crab sideways etc).

i keep circling, varying size, LY in and out, but keep coming past the corners of doom, keep putting him as round and deep as i need to have him to stop him peeping, and as soon as he drops behind my leg he gets a verbal command and a leg aid to go forward and every single time he stays soft and stays forward he is praised, i cannot use my strength but i DO have it in my head that he WILL answer every aid/request i give and that he WILL listen to me so perhaps in that way i am strong? i keep him very much between hand and leg but they are not forceful aids and as much as anything i think he senses the game is over and i aint gonna give in!

 

[Supanova]

i dont think its about strength that much- im around 7 stone 11 so could not use my strength to wrestle much in to submission at all......................i ride a very spooky horse for a client, comes round the corner every single time trying to hollow, throw quarters in and find somethign to spook at (when he will then fling head up again and spin, go disunited or crab sideways etc).

i keep circling, varying size, LY in and out, but keep coming past the corners of doom, keep putting him as round and deep as i need to have him to stop him peeping, and as soon as he drops behind my leg he gets a verbal command and a leg aid to go forward and every single time he stays soft and stays forward he is praised, i cannot use my strength but i DO have it in my head that he WILL answer every aid/request i give and that he WILL listen to me so perhaps in that way i am strong? i keep him very much between hand and leg but they are not forceful aids and as much as anything i think he senses the game is over and i aint gonna give in!

I agree with this - I don't think Pros all just use strength and grit determination! As Prince33Sp4rkle says its probably more about being totally consistent and very clear in what is right and wrong.

 

[TheoryX1]

I am only a mere 'Happy Hacker', but I hope I can offer a little bit of advice. Your poor boy sounds stressed by the move. What about taking a little pressure off of him with regard to schooling in the arena. What about just doing some fun, no pressure activities for a little while, just so that he can chill out and relax.

When I moved to our current yard 6 years ago, my horse, who is a very dominant cob was just the same. He was nappy, used to try and spin and bolt for home and I ended up using a pelham with double reins. He also used to buck when asked to canter in the arena as well, and also charged at any jumps I asked him to jump. I just gave him the time to settle, and eventually there was a change in his behaviour. I also gave him lots and lots of turnout, which he did not have in his last yard, which he loves, and he is now a different horse - still frigging dominant though, but that is him.

Now I quickly re-read your thread - he doesnt hack? Thats a hard one - is he ok in company with a safe, reliable horse - hell, where are you, I will come over with my mr super reliable on the roads, who is used by YO to hack out her youngsters etc. He can make anyone feel comfortable, bless him. Well what about lots of turnout, if you are able to do it, plus just what I call some 'quality horse time', ie lots of fuss, grooming, walking out in hand etc, just lots of chill out basically. I would add that my horse would respond to the strong riding tactics, as he is super dominant and not very sensitive either, but it would not work for everyone.

I hope it sorts itself out, and I know from experience its not nice for both you or the horse. Good luck with it.

 

[TarrSteps]

Sorry, I'm going to have a pedantic moment. . .

"Dominance" theory doesn't really have a place in horse behaviour theory, it's drawn from Canine work - a very different social system - and even then there is a lot of debate about it's understanding and application as a basis for training.

What we refer to as "submission" in a dressage/ridden sense is not the opposite of dominance in the way it seems to be being discussed here - it's not about forcing the horse to behave in a particular way, it's about developing physical and mental ridability. Some of this is innate - hence why there are scores for aspects of it in testing - some of it comes through management, some through training, some through riding.

Honestly, the horse you are describing doesn't sound aggressive - there is no mention of him actively trying to attack you or bully you - he sounds freaked out and disinclined to listen to you. You have to bring the structure and confidence to the situation, not just by forcing him to "relax" (that doesn't even work on people ) but by working with him to lower his anxiety levels and dissipate his energy in productive ways.

Re the use of strength by professional or similar riders. Yes, some people go this way, and some horses need to be firmly told. Although even in those cases it's mental as much as physical and usually as much core strength - the ablity not to be affected by the horse's physical actions - rather than brute force. What good pros really bring to the party though is confidence, skill and timing. While you do see people having knock down, drag outs with horses, and sometimes it comes down to that, it is just as much about avoiding conflict and managing the horse's reactions. Even the strongest rider will be overwhelmed by the average panicky or furious horse and most pros know it. Knowing what to do, when, and being fit and strong enough to do it, even if the horse is not keen, is the ticket.

So yes, in that case, being strong enough to be confident even in adversity, might be a necessary skill.

But, OP, you admit that's not where you are right now so you will have to go another way with it.

Just last week you were singing your horse's praises, yes? And all that's changed since then is management, yes? You are the same rider, he is the same horse. In his new situation is he getting the same food? Going out the same? Living in a similar level of activity? Some horses simply require more manangement than others and, from all you've said, yours is one of those. The thing with management is it's ongoing and constantly changing - if you change one thing you have to balance the system accordingly. I think people might be schocked how closely managed many professional's horses are and, quite frankly, it's this as much as anything that makes people apply the term "professional's horses."

What routine have you established for success at shows? My advice would be to apply that to this situation - given the management is the same - and make your work very consistent over the next couple of weeks. Perhaps he needs to do something, even just a bit, every day until he settles? Perhaps alternate longeing with riding days? What about trying a calmer? (I'm not convinced but many people seem to have success.) Even valerian? Anything to help him lower his anxiety so you are able to work him enough and in a way that makes him tired and relaxed enough to come out better the next day.

Have you had a lesson since you've moved? Sometimes that structure can help get things back on track and someone who knows the horse well can most accurately advise you on coping strategies.

 

[cptrayes]

decent hands is one of only hundreds of things you should have before competing at elementary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!or in fact competing full stop!

No schitt Sherlock!

IMO for your horse-even if the double works in the short term, long term he will find a way round it because thats what dominant horses do, he wont take it laying down even if it takes him a few weeks to work out how to evade it, he will eventually work it out.

Mine didn't, and was always happier in a curbed bit. I have another one now who is very unsettled if I put him in a snaffle and much prefers a curb bit. Some horses just do.

Ausrider has good suggestions and i second the having a routine/plan idea-CS likes to know that we do the same warm up every time, even at a show or a lesson, he likes to feel he knows whats coming up, no suprises.

But the whole point is that out competing there are always surprises. So the horse has to learn to listen to the rider even when there are surprises, which is why it can be effective to keep on surprising it at home, so it is used to it when it gets to shows.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Sorry, I'm going to have a pedantic moment. . .

"Dominance" theory doesn't really have a place in horse behaviour theory, it's drawn from Canine work - a very different social system - and even then there is a lot of debate about it's understanding and application as a basis for training.

What we refer to as "submission" in a dressage/ridden sense is not the opposite of dominance in the way it seems to be being discussed here - it's not about forcing the horse to behave in a particular way, it's about developing physical and mental ridability. Some of this is innate - hence why there are scores for aspects of it in testing - some of it comes through management, some through training, some through riding.

Honestly, the horse you are describing doesn't sound aggressive - there is no mention of him actively trying to attack you or bully you - he sounds freaked out and disinclined to listen to you. You have to bring the structure and confidence to the situation, not just by forcing him to "relax" (that doesn't even work on people ) but by working with him to lower his anxiety levels and dissipate his energy in productive ways.

Re the use of strength by professional or similar riders. Yes, some people go this way, and some horses need to be firmly told. Although even in those cases it's mental as much as physical and usually as much core strength - the ablity not to be affected by the horse's physical actions - rather than brute force. What good pros really bring to the party though is confidence, skill and timing. While you do see people having knock down, drag outs with horses, and sometimes it comes down to that, it is just as much about avoiding conflict and managing the horse's reactions. Even the strongest rider will be overwhelmed by the average panicky or furious horse and most pros know it. Knowing what to do, when, and being fit and strong enough to do it, even if the horse is not keen, is the ticket.

So yes, in that case, being strong enough to be confident even in adversity, might be a necessary skill.

But, OP, you admit that's not where you are right now so you will have to go another way with it.

Just last week you were singing your horse's praises, yes? And all that's changed since then is management, yes? You are the same rider, he is the same horse. In his new situation is he getting the same food? Going out the same? Living in a similar level of activity? Some horses simply require more manangement than others and, from all you've said, yours is one of those. The thing with management is it's ongoing and constantly changing - if you change one thing you have to balance the system accordingly. I think people might be schocked how closely managed many professional's horses are and, quite frankly, it's this as much as anything that makes people apply the term "professional's horses."

What routine have you established for success at shows? My advice would be to apply that to this situation - given the management is the same - and make your work very consistent over the next couple of weeks. Perhaps he needs to do something, even just a bit, every day until he settles? Perhaps alternate longeing with riding days? What about trying a calmer? (I'm not convinced but many people seem to have success.) Even valerian? Anything to help him lower his anxiety so you are able to work him enough and in a way that makes him tired and relaxed enough to come out better the next day.

Have you had a lesson since you've moved? Sometimes that structure can help get things back on track and someone who knows the horse well can most accurately advise you on coping strategies.

bang on reply TS, you have far more eloquently conveyed the difference between brute strength and mental determination plus core strength, than me! I think you make a very valid point re some horses having to be closely managed and I have first hand experience of this with CS, nothing is left to chance and every detail is raked over every day.

No schitt Sherlock!



Mine didn't, and was always happier in a curbed bit. I have another one now who is very unsettled if I put him in a snaffle and much prefers a curb bit. Some horses just do.




But the whole point is that out competing there are always surprises. So the horse has to learn to listen to the rider even when there are surprises, which is why it can be effective to keep on surprising it at home, so it is used to it when it gets to shows.

sure fire way to unsettle an already unsettled horse even further-you build up the confidence at home and in training situations so that they can cope with the unexpected at shows, you dont keep throwing them (mentally) every day at home, you work in a logical structured way, laying strong building blocks so that the occasional blip or the rare occasion you accidentally go *over the limit* is not a problem.

Yes you have to train for suprises such as banners and music, but generally pro horses have a daily, weekly and monthly structure to their work that builds confidence in the rider and the work.
I dont know anyone (with decent BD results) who works on the theory of constantly chopping and changing and "suprising" the horse..........and its amazing how many people think that being able to wang round in a double=elem horse, despite scores (and indeed judges), bluntly, telling them otherwise (OP i know that isnt what you think btw, just a general comment......)

 

[Supanova]

TarrSteps - fantastic post!!

 

[Andiamo]

@TarrSteps - I LOVE your response, in so many ways. Thank for taking the time to write that.

So yes, in that case, being strong enough to be confident even in adversity, might be a necessary skill.

- I am so determined to get through this, and to learn from the experience, that I will be thinking to myself each day: "be strong enough to be confident even in adversity".

Knowing what to do, when, and being fit and strong enough to do it, even if the horse is not keen, is the ticket.

Spot on.

Just last week you were singing your horse's praises, yes?

erm, yes I didn't realise he was going to go backwards immediately after that post!!!

I think people might be shocked how closely managed many professional's horses are and, quite frankly, it's this as much as anything that makes people apply the term "professional's horses."

You're absolutely right about this, I've been on pro's yards in the past (top international grand prix riders), and their horses have a very strict routine which does not vary at all.

I've been giving him Valerian daily for the past week, but it isn't taking the edge off. He was out at his previous yard 24/7 which he enjoyed. He is now out from 7am-3:30pm each day, which is a big reduction in outside time. I thought about going back onto grass livery, since he seems to prefer it, but now winter is coming, and I don't want him out in muddy, slippery flooded fields for health reasons. Also it is nice for him to be at night, warm, rugged, plenty to eat, shelter over his head. You're right though, it is a big change in routine, his turnout time has been halved. Feed is exactly the same, but the meadow hay is from a different batch / supplier.

As for getting a lesson in, you're a mindreader - I've been trying to get hold of my trainer, a very very effective top G.P rider, who can sort things out in 5 minutes or less. I'll keep trying to get hold of her.

Thanks again for the post.

 

[Alfami]

Just as a point of clarity, the surprises that I referred to in my post are mental versions, not really physical. In other words, a 'difficult' horse needs a thinking rider - one who recognises the problem and responds today, not tomorrow with a positive reaction.

No, not brute strength, but being mentally one step ahead of the horse. I agree with both PS and TarrSteps - all good advice. I hope that PS isn't alluding to my 'surprises' being the problem. But then again, this is a forum and I struggle to write down what my mind is thinking!

 

[Polotash]

I thought about going back onto grass livery, since he seems to prefer it, but now winter is coming, and I don't want him out in muddy, slippery flooded fields for health reasons. Also it is nice for him to be at night, warm, rugged, plenty to eat, shelter over his head. You're right though, it is a big change in routine, his turnout time has been halved. Feed is exactly the same, but the meadow hay is from a different batch / supplier.

Just one teeny tiny point. You say your horse prefers to be at grass, but then that it's nice for him to be in at night, warm, rugged etc. I think the "him" may need to say "me".

His behaviour change might be down to change or yard, hay, routine, but it may also be because he prefers being out where he can let off steam.... IMO horses who are out 24/7 are less at risk of hooning about and damaging themselves because it's normal, not exciting for them.

I'm not saying don't keep him in, I'm just saying keep an open mind, because if he carries on being tense you could maybe make him a lot happier by moving back to grass livery. It's kinder on your wallet too, what's not to like ;0)

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Just as a point of clarity, the surprises that I referred to in my post are mental versions, not really physical. In other words, a 'difficult' horse needs a thinking rider - one who recognises the problem and responds today, not tomorrow with a positive reaction.

No, not brute strength, but being mentally one step ahead of the horse. I agree with both PS and TarrSteps - all good advice. I hope that PS isn't alluding to my 'surprises' being the problem. But then again, this is a forum and I struggle to write down what my mind is thinking!

no no, didnt mean you!

 

[Alfami]

Good! I didn't think you did but just wanted to make sure I hadn't been misinterpreted - dangerous things these forums!

 

[ellie_e]

I agree I would stay well clear of a double!!!! Have you tried some of the calmers available? Ive tried lots with mine who would spook and spin in every session, Im currently using Equifeast Cool Calm Collected Mag free and hes a changed horse, can even take him for a hack by himself which was un heard of before!!

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Good! I didn't think you did but just wanted to make sure I hadn't been misinterpreted - dangerous things these forums!

ha ha they bite!

this:
http://www.sciencesupplements.co.uk/Store/shopexd.asp?id=16

works well to take the edge of the spooky toad i ride, but doesnt make him dopey.....albeit i have warned his rider its more a schooling issue and a mental issue for her,and that she cant mask it forever with a calmer, but if it was dangerous this would def take the edge off.

 

[Supanova]

I agree I would stay well clear of a double!!!! Have you tried some of the calmers available? Ive tried lots with mine who would spook and spin in every session, Im currently using Equifeast Cool Calm Collected Mag free and hes a changed horse, can even take him for a hack by himself which was un heard of before!!

I echo the above - my mare has also been much improved since on Winning Edge Mag Free which is pretty much the same as the above!!

 

[cptrayes]

I agree I would stay well clear of a double!!!!

Why?

If the horse was to go right to the top it would have to compete in one. What's wrong with trying one, the horse may like it?

 

[cptrayes]

sure fire way to unsettle an already unsettled horse even further-you build up the confidence at home and in training situations so that they can cope with the unexpected at shows, you dont keep throwing them (mentally) every day at home, you work in a logical structured way, laying strong building blocks so that the occasional blip or the rare occasion you accidentally go *over the limit* is not a problem.

I do not agree with you. If your horse spooks strange fillers at a show, you don't cure it by giving it a consistent warm-up, you cure it by letting it see more things like strange fillers at home.

If a horse is of a type which is constatly looking for danger, then the only cure is to stop him looking, which requires him focussing on something else - the rider.

Of course you do the logical, methodical training too, but my own experience of a hugely muscled, over-reactive and over-dominant warmblood is that he was immensely improved by training him to expect a changed of pace or direction at any possible moment. It trained him to focus on me for his next instruction and it radically improved his behaviour both at home and at competitions.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

actually you cure it by doing consistant logical work in and around fillers so the work becomes the comfort blanket and the horse learns to focus on that and not its surroundings.

you dont stop him looking, you train him not to want or need to do it, big difference.

at what level did said horse compete and how did he/she progress with that method of training? how did scores improve etc?