How do you improve submission in a dominant horse?

[Tempi]

Seriously, non of the above is helping the OP - as usual another post has been turned into a debate about the sparkle sisters horses.......

 

[nikkimariet]

Yes Tempi, I quite agree... Why has Cptrayes involved my horse?....

 

[shortstuff99]

In my experience with 'bog off' kind of horses if they go to bog off I just go into 2 point seat and just let them canter round... And when they want to stop I make them keep going! In the end they realise it's in fact much harder work to bog off then it is to do the work. For my nervous Spanish mare, I have to keep everything varied so to keep her occupied and therefore less likely to spook. This also means I have to vary her work she hardly ever does the same thing 2 days running. Have you also tried in-hand NH type stuff? I find it really helps!

 

[Bigbenji]

Yes Tempi, I quite agree... Why has Cptrayes involved my horse?....

Maybe cptrayes has a crush on ya!

Nicki I think it's great that you and PS post warts n all.
I love seeing peoples progress and how they work through problems as and when they crop up. I think by showing pictures and videos others can relate much easier. Anyone can give it the gab but back it up now and again

For what it's worth I saw Fig at his Patchetts outing in his second test and all I saw was a lovely relaxed partnership performing an accurate test which deserved it's win.

OP there is already some great advice on here so please keep us posted when you've tried some and hope you see some improvment soon.

 

[Tonks]

Apologies as I haven't read the whole thread but here goes.......

I understand that you're an experienced rider and I would have found myself saying the same thing as you a few years ago. However, after working with horses and studying the scientific approach of behaviourism (similar to how they train dogs but species specific) it has opened up a world of horses to me that I never thought possible. I hope some of these ideas may be useful for your riding/horse.

Although there are individual differences amongst horses there are 4 basic movements that make up the horse's entire ridden repitoire. The 'stop', 'go' 'turn' and 'yield' response. We train these using Negative Reinforcement. That is, pressure and release at a very precise moment. When this release is carried out at the wrong time the horse begins to confuse what pressure means - hence not slowing or stopping when required.

Again, (I don't think it applies to you) but when we inappropriately use leg pressure without the correct release (to REWARD the desired response) the horse commonly becomes known as 'dead to the leg'. The horse is not dead to the leg or ignorant - it is merely hasn't been taught what the pressure means.

If your horse is hurtling down the arena and at events, wouldn't it make sense to go back and train the 'stop' response as it appears that your horse doesn't fully understand what pressure means. Some horses require little pressure others more, but the release of pressure and the training remains the same.

I rode my old mare for many years affiliated eventing not fully understanding what a proper 'stop' response should feel like - hence many bits and a few bolts out hunting. I won't make the same mistake with my new boy and he now responds to the lightest of rein pressure for a 'slow/stop'. Once the 'stop' response is fully trained you should be able to take your horse anywhere as proof that it understands and is trained to provide the desired behaviour.

You mentioned that he's spooking a lot. Spooking should be considered a loss of line/straightness (similar to falling in/out where either fore steps outside of the two track straightness) and as such, it means that you've temporarily loss control over the shoulders. Although, I'm sure that his behaviour has worsened because he's in a new environment, I would suggest that it has merely brought them more to the surface.

Once a horse is 'on the aids'/'off the leg' or 'under stimulus control' spooking should become a thing of the past as your horse should be able to maintain the speed, straightness, and carriage by himself. He is then waiting for you to tell him otherwise.

If he spooks I would go back and work on the 'turn' response in order to gain greater control over his shoulders to stop the spooking. But, he first has to be able to maintain his own pace and be 'off the leg' as without that you won't get anything. Being truly off the leg should mean that he responds to a SINGLE light pressure from your calf on his sides behind the girth to bring about an increase in speed from him. If he doesn't then you need to re-train the 'go'.

I also use the scale of training for both short term (schooling sessions) and long term goals:

1. Rythmym: he should be off the leg and stay in the pace you put him into until you tell him otherwise. No nagging heels. Back of the calf for a 'go' - back of the heel for a lengthen stride so your horse knows the difference. If my horse does not maintain the pace I put him into on his own, trying to do anything else will be useless.

2. Looseness: to be honest, with a spooky horse I may only want a few moments of this!!

3. Contact: I then take up a contact that feels no more than a can of beans in each hand - I'm sure I will be criticised for this but this is what my horse should habituate to in order to fully understand correct amounts of pressure.

4. Straightness: control over the shoulders using the turn response to ensure my horse is on whatever track I dictate. Without straightness I can't do anything else. My horse should maintain his OWN straightness - if he can't I go over it again until he does.

5. I'd then expect my horse to maintain his own pace and straightness and ultimately his own carriage. When you've got a horse doing it by himself the feeling is wonderful and you don't need any amount of brute strength. I think this is what more professional riders do - they are just good at knowing when to release the pressure in order to train the horse to produce the correct behavioural responses to the lightest of aids.

Good luck.

 

[siennamum]

Apologies as I haven't read the whole thread but here goes.......

I understand that you're an experienced rider and I would have found myself saying the same thing as you a few years ago. However, after working with horses and studying the scientific approach of behaviourism (similar to how they train dogs but species specific) it has opened up a world of horses to me that I never thought possible. I hope some of these ideas may be useful for your riding/horse.

Although there are individual differences amongst horses there are 4 basic movements that make up the horse's entire ridden repitoire. The 'stop', 'go' 'turn' and 'yield' response. We train these using Negative Reinforcement. That is, pressure and release at a very precise moment. When this release is carried out at the wrong time the horse begins to confuse what pressure means - hence not slowing or stopping when required.

Again, (I don't think it applies to you) but when we inappropriately use leg pressure without the correct release (to REWARD the desired response) the horse commonly becomes known as 'dead to the leg'. The horse is not dead to the leg or ignorant - it is merely hasn't been taught what the pressure means.

If your horse is hurtling down the arena and at events, wouldn't it make sense to go back and train the 'stop' response as it appears that your horse doesn't fully understand what pressure means. Some horses require little pressure others more, but the release of pressure and the training remains the same.

I rode my old mare for many years affiliated eventing not fully understanding what a proper 'stop' response should feel like - hence many bits and a few bolts out hunting. I won't make the same mistake with my new boy and his downward transitions are beautiful. Once the 'stop' response is fully trained you should be able to take your horse anywhere as proof that it understands and is trained to provide the desired behaviour.

You mentioned that he's spooking a lot. Spooking should be considered a loss of line/straightness (similar to falling in/out where either fore steps outside of the two track straightness) and as such, it means that you've temporarily loss control over the shoulders. Although, I'm sure that his behaviour has worsened because he's in a new environment, I would suggest that it has merely brought them more to the surface.

Once a horse is 'on the aids'/'off the leg' or 'under stimulus control' spooking should become a thing of the past as your horse should be able to maintain the speed, straightness, and carriage by himself. He is then waiting for you to tell him otherwise.

If he spooks I would go back and working on the 'turn' response in order to gain greater control over his shoulders to stop the spooking. But, he first has to be able to maintain his own pace and be 'off the leg' as without that you won't get anything. Being truly off the leg should mean that he responds to a SINGLE light pressure from your calf on his sides behind the girth to bring about an increase in speed from him.

I also use the scale of training for both short term (schooling sessions) and long term goals:

1. Rythmym: he should be off the leg and stay in the pace you put him into until you tell him otherwise. No nagging heels. Back of the calf for a 'go' - back of the heel for a lengthen stride so your horse knows the difference. If my horse does not maintain the pace I put him into on his own, trying to do anything else will be useless.

2. Looseness: to be honest, with a spooky horse I may only want a few moments of this!!

3. Contact: I then take up a contact that feels no more than a can of beans in each hand - I'm sure I will be criticised for this but this is what my horse should habituate to in order to fully understand correct amounts of pressure.

4. Straightness: control over the shoulders using the turn response to ensure my horse is on whatever track I dictate. Without straightness I can't do anything else. My horse should maintain his OWN straightness - if he can't I go over it again until he does.

5. I'd then expect my horse to maintain his own pace and straightness and ultimately his own carriage. When you've got a horse doing it by himself the feeling is wonderful and you don't need any amount of brute strength. I think this is what more professional riders do - they are just good at knowing when to release the pressure in order to train the horse to produce the correct behavioural responses to the lightest of aids.

Good luck.

how interesting thank you

 

[nikkimariet]

Maybe cptrayes has a crush on ya!

Nicki I think it's great that you and PS post warts n all.
I love seeing peoples progress and how they work through problems as and when they crop up. I think by showing pictures and videos others can relate much easier. Anyone can give it the gab but back it up now and again

For what it's worth I saw Fig at his Patchetts outing in his second test and all I saw was a lovely relaxed partnership performing an accurate test which deserved it's win.

OP there is already some great advice on here so please keep us posted when you've tried some and hope you see some improvment soon.

Ahh thanks BB He was a very good boy!! And hey, warts and all is just real life

 

[cptrayes]

Tonks I understand what you are saying, but some of the warmbloods that have been bred for huge movement seem to have left their brains somewhere further back in their breeding, compared to the ex-racers and IDx's that I have previously trained.

What do you do with a horse who simply does not stay in the pace you put him in; who sometimes takes a contact like two JCBs not two cans of beans; who will not stay on the track you dictate; who will not maintain the pace and straightness? I'm not referring to my current youngster, who is as light on his feet as a ballerina, but the one I had that died would, from time to time, choose to leave the arena either through or over the fence if he did not want to do work that he had previously done without a problem. Often the cause would be something as simple as a new vehicle parked on the yard. He was completely freaked by change, even something like a daffodil growing on a verge where there had been no daffodil last time he went past.

There do appear to be some horses who simply will not consent to give up control to their rider without methods like hyperflexion (Parzival and Totilas look like contenders) and I wonder if the OP may be unlucky enough to have one But I would be interested to hear what your technique would be if you came across one. I hope never to buy another like it, but who knows!

 

[TGM]

Hmmm ... Do you think these tips would be useful for getting sharp and dominant HHOers to be more submissive?

 

[Tonks]

Yep, I understand my ex eventer was a WB.....mare!! If in doubt her feet got faster...I love her to bits though and she taught me loads.

She's in retirement but I actually went back and retrained [not the 'go' - that was fully installed, he, he....!!] the stop response last year [as I use her for teaching] because although she could tolerate a lot of pressure, it was my incorrect application of the pressure that caused her to not slow/stop, etc. She now stop/slows to much lighter rein pressure than ever before.

I know that each horse is different but I do believe that the techniques I use (as described before) work with every single horse out there. You just have to work out which of the basic responses they need work on (and what you need to work on with your riding.)

I would like to mention however, that horses often exhibit 'conflict' behaviours (rearing/bucking/bolting - and more subtle ones - tail swishing, etc) when there is an incorrect use of pressure/release. This is not good and often those horse that appear 'difficult' are the one which are actually undergoing undue psychological and physiological stress.

Hyperflexion is totally unnecessary and totally unethical and causes psychological and physiological stress. But please lets not have a debate about that!!!

 

[Tonks]

Hmmm ... Do you think these tips would be useful for getting sharp and dominant HHOers to be more submissive?

It works on those best of all.....read Andrew McLean - a bit of science regarding horses' cognitive abilities, their ethology and how Negative & Positive reinforcement along with Classical conditioning shapes their behaviour does wonders.

You as a rider uses all of the above, you just don't realise you're doing it and perhaps not how to use it to bring about wanted rather than unwanted behaviours.

 

[cptrayes]

Completely agree with you that hyperflexion is unacceptable. I think I also agree with you that (almost?) all horses can get there in the end. My odd boy was doing well after six whole years (except for hacking, he never cracked that one). Of course people who want/have (eg pro's) to win can't wait that long and so I suppose go for a quicker fix. My current youngster is a big tail swisher and it's easy to tell when I've got it right - he stops doing it. My last one was a mouth opener, which also stopped if he was truly happy, so I'd never tie a mouth shut either.

Now I've thought about it, the big difference between the two was on the ground. My current youngster is a joy to handle, but the horse which was seriously difficult to ride was also very odd to handle. For example, if there was a new vehicle on the yard he would refuse to come in to have his tea.

It would be interesting to know whether Andiamo's horse is also boisterous or strangely behaved on the ground, or only when ridden, which might perhaps suggest different issues.

 

[ellie_e]

Cptrayes, I think there's a very good saying of 'people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones' which I would say applies to some of your comments to the others. There is also a very good argument of people over horsing themselves, and if your horse is such a nightmare then maybe he's not suited to you, and you would be best with a quiter horse. No horse is perfect PS knows this better than most, she has competed to GP with a stunning horse who she has produced herself that wasn't bred for the job, who can be difficult but has proven results, like the others said, records are easily available.

 

[Tonks]

Cptrayes: "Now I've thought about it, the big difference between the two was on the ground. My current youngster is a joy to handle, but the horse which was seriously difficult to ride was also very odd to handle. For example, if there was a new vehicle on the yard he would refuse to come in to have his tea."

There is a correlation between in-hand work/training/responses and ridden responses also. If your horse is refusing in-hand to enter the yard - it simply comes down to the way and amount of pressure needed to produce the required response. In other words, he learnt that the pressure you used was avoidable and he learnt that he could say, go 'left' rather than 'right'. Inadvertently you reinforced unwanted behaviour - to produce [I don't know, backing away from the yard.] If it hadn't been a new vehicle on the yard, it would have been something else. Basically, there was a flaw in training of the 'go' in hand. Horses are immensely trainable and have been bred with this in mind. Horses innately move away from pressure and when applied correctly we can use this to our advantage. I don't believe there isn't a horse out there that doesn't respond to pressure and release regardless of age or breeding even those who are so called 'sharp'.

As there is a correlation between in-hand and ridden responses I am not surprised therefore, that he exhibited unwanted behaviours under saddle. If he has not learnt the correct behaviour/responses in-hand why will he learn them under saddle?

 

[ellie_e]

"As there is a correlation between in-hand and ridden responses I am not surprised therefore, that he exhibited unwanted behaviours under saddle. If he has not learnt the correct behaviour/responses in-hand why will he learn them under saddle?"
I couldn't agree more!!

 

[Froggy1990]

Yes Tempi, I quite agree... Why has Cptrayes involved my horse?....

I think the more pertinent question is "why has PrincessSparkle involved my horse?"

 

[nikkimariet]

I think the more pertinent question is "why has PrincessSparkle involved my horse?"

Oh look. A brand new poster

Actually, cptrayes was first to mention Fig on page 5, comment number 47

 

[Froggy1990]

Oh look. A brand new poster

Actually, cptrayes was first to mention Fig on page 5, comment number 47

*Waves* Yes indeed. We all have to be brand new posters at some point.
How silly of me. As it was PrincessSparkle who mentioned your horse's name and was so swift to hold him as a paragon of virtue in such exhaustive detail, I did indeed focus on THAT particular post. I shall slap myself on the wrist.

 

[nikkimariet]

*Waves* Yes indeed. We all have to be brand new posters at some point.
How silly of me. As it was PrincessSparkle who mentioned your horse's name and was so swift to hold him as a paragon of virtue in such exhaustive detail, I did indeed focus on THAT particular post. I shall slap myself on the wrist.

Yes, very silly of you.

 

[cptrayes]

If your horse is refusing in-hand to enter the yard - it simply comes down to the way and amount of pressure needed to produce the required response. In other words, he learnt that the pressure you used was avoidable and he learnt that he could say, go 'left' rather than 'right'. Inadvertently you reinforced unwanted behaviour - to produce [I don't know, backing away from the yard.] If it hadn't been a new vehicle on the yard, it would have been something else. Basically, there was a flaw in training of the 'go' in hand. Horses are immensely trainable and have been bred with this in mind. Horses innately move away from pressure and when applied correctly we can use this to our advantage. I don't believe there isn't a horse out there that doesn't respond to pressure and release regardless of age or breeding even those who are so called 'sharp'.

This is the problem with a forum. You didn't meet the horse and there is no way that you could understand him unless you did. Unfortunately he is dead now, so that's not possible.

My own history is relevant here. I have routinely bought horses that other people had already ruined, (mainly because I was too mean to pay more ) and sorted them out.

This horse was the only one who I found remotely difficult, and he was very, very peculiar. It was not simply a question of training. Nothing was "simple" about him at all. His instinct for self-preservation was sky high. He also has a full brother with serious behaviour issues, and the father was known for being quirky, so this is one was not simply a case of incorrect training.

If taken to a place he did not know, he would either break down or climb over the stable door. When travelling, he smashed the lorry windows with his front feet before I got him and in order to stop him doing that again he was travelled with a wither rope attached to a "cage" arrangement so that he could not break the partitions as well. (he shares that trait with his brother, who I have never seen). I could go on for several pages. Quite simply, he was not normal.

It's my impression that the Dutch in particular have focussed so much on breeding horses which move exceptionally well that in some cases they have left "trainability" out of the mix. Mine was an extreme version but he was not alone, I've been offered others for free that other people have given up with and heard of even more.

Andiamo may have one like it, and if she does then none of us understand without sitting on it what she is trying to deal with, and I think that is the root of her frustration with the answers that she got on here.

"refusing in hand to enter the yard" is not the point at all. I open the gate and my horses bring themselves in. For his first three years with me, if there was anything, even tiny, different about the yard, he would not come in. If I attempted to bring him in then he would pick me up and carry me back out into the field on the end of whatever I had on him, with steam coming out of his ears and his eyes rolling in terror in his head - this because a delivery van was parked outside his yard with a gate between him and it, to give just one example of a thousand.

I know that you will probably still answer that my training was at fault, but the fact is that some of these horses are simply not completely sane. Just as there is a range with humans, so there is with horses.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Hmmm ... Do you think these tips would be useful for getting sharp and dominant HHOers to be more submissive?

nothing more to say, except this made me howl......i have often wondered if i should rollkur my OH when he's being a nob!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ferdinase514]

If you want control just put the horse in draw reins

 

[kerilli]

Sticking my oar back in, although I may live to regret it...

Tonks, thank you for your contributions. Very interesting. I agree 100% with:
"As there is a correlation between in-hand and ridden responses I am not surprised therefore, that he exhibited unwanted behaviours under saddle. If he has not learnt the correct behaviour/responses in-hand why will he learn them under saddle?"

In my experience 99.9% of horses will react to requests from the ground pretty much as they do from requests when on top (as long as there's not a physical pain/problem which means that being ridden hurts them). Their basic response to a question, be it "walk with me" or "move over" or "hop over that jump" or whatever, usually follows a very consistent pattern. I've never had a horse who was wildly different to ride cf to handle UNLESS it had a major problem already.

"refusing in hand to enter the yard" is not the point at all. I open the gate and my horses bring themselves in. For his first three years with me, if there was anything, even tiny, different about the yard, he would not come in. If I attempted to bring him in then he would pick me up and carry me back out into the field on the end of whatever I had on him, with steam coming out of his ears and his eyes rolling in terror in his head - this because a delivery van was parked outside his yard with a gate between him and it, to give just one example of a thousand.

But but but... letting horses bring themselves into the yard teaches them nothing and proves nothing, surely? Of course most horses will come in of their own volition if allowed to do so: they know they're coming in for food and a warm comfy bed for the night. But for most nervous ones, being allowed to come in loose makes them 100x worse. They need the calm direction, the habit and discipline of being led and being rewarded. It's like a security blanket, teaching them good habits. Just walking in hand nicely and then the reward of stable and feed etc.
I let foals follow in loose because I lack the manpower to have a person leading the foal and a person leading the mare, and because ime 1 person trying to do both needs extendable arms... but once they're bigger they are always led in if at all possible.

I know that you will probably still answer that my training was at fault, but the fact is that some of these horses are simply not completely sane. Just as there is a range with humans, so there is with horses.

This is true. The truly impossible/insane ones are downright dangerous. They usually have a major physical reason for their hyperreactiveness imho (because they feel so vulnerable they are far more nervous, basically) but if they are THAT bad, if what they do is totally without rhyme or reason even when handled calmly, consistently and competently, then I know what I would do with them...
but fwiw I don't think 'dumb-bloods' are top of the list of insane horses I've heard about. Dutch warm bloods have been bred for generations to be athletes and to totally accept drilling, not to be hyperreactive nutters - they'd have eaten those long ago, not bred with them!

 

[cptrayes]

But but but... letting horses bring themselves into the yard teaches them nothing and proves nothing, surely?

You seem to assume that he was never led in hand at any time. That is not correct. The example I gave was one of many, his bizarre behaviour was not limited by any normal horse's boundaries

I personally see no conflict with opening a gate and expecting my horses to walk calmly between 0 and 25 feet into their own stable and good groundwork training. But I do find it significant that a horse which has done so perfectly happily for 6 months will one day completely refuse to come near the yard because we changed a white Toyota for a grey Skoda.

This is true. The truly impossible/insane ones are downright dangerous. They usually have a major physical reason for their hyperreactiveness imho (because they feel so vulnerable they are far more nervous, basically) but if they are THAT bad, if what they do is totally without rhyme or reason even when handled calmly, consistently and competently, then I know what I would do with them...

It crossed my mind many times to have him put down. I could not sell him. In the end, the irony was that just as he began to really come right, I had no option but to have him shot

You write as if you do not believe in inherited behaviour traits Kerilli. Whilst it was clear in the end that the horse had a physical problem with his neck from birth, I know that his behaviour was largely hereditary because his father and full brother, neither of whom I have ever had any contact with, were also very quirky. Of course it is possible that both were also wobblers, but since the father was a GP showjumper and the brother has no ridden problems at a year older, that seems rather unlikely.

Dutch warm bloods have been bred for generations to be athletes and to totally accept drilling, not to be hyperreactive nutters - they'd have eaten those long ago, not bred with them!

Tell that to the people who own Opan offspring I understand that Totilas' father had a hell of reputation too, and look at the difficulty Rath is having getting to grips with him. Winstone Bridget has been bred from in spite of being difficult, because of her huge jump. Her sire Rosewall Grandure, now dead, is well known around here for throwing quirky and argumentative stock with fussy mouths. People breed things with the characteristics they want, they don't always consider the ones they don't


Are not the Dutch big fans of hyperflexion? I don't think that would be the case if these horses readily accepted normal training.

 

[kerilli]

You seem to assume that he was never led in hand at any time. That is not correct.

I was interpreting your exact words

I open the gate and my horses bring themselves in. For his first three years with me, if there was anything, even tiny, different about the yard, he would not come in.

I took this to mean that this was the usual way you did it.

I personally see no conflict with opening a gate and expecting my horses to walk calmly between 0 and 25 feet into their own stable and good groundwork training.

Hmm, my horses behave very differently at liberty to the way they do in hand. If they are brought in en masse, they might argue, pick the wrong stable, decide to go and check someone else's dinner, etc etc. I've seen mayhem result from this practice (YO used to do it with about 12 horses at once in winter. Rarely pretty!)

You write as if you do not believe in inherited behaviour traits Kerilli.

No, I never said anything of the sort.

Whilst it was clear in the end that the horse had a physical problem with his neck from birth, I know that his behaviour was largely hereditary because his father and full brother, neither of whom I have ever had any contact with, were also very quirky. Of course it is possible that both were also wobblers, but since the father was a GP showjumper and the brother has no ridden problems at a year older, that seems rather unlikely.

So, his father was a GP sjer (who was, therefore, by definition manageable), and by the sounds of it your horse was 99% unmanageable, but you think his problems stemmed from his genes rather than his neck problem?

Tell that to the people who own Opan offspring I understand that Totilas' father had a hell of reputation too, and look at the difficulty Rath is having getting to grips with him. Winstone Bridget has been bred from in spite of being difficult, because of her huge jump. Her sire Rosewall Grandure, now dead, is well known around here for throwing quirky and argumentative stock with fussy mouths. People breed things with the characteristics they want, they don't always consider the ones they don't

Yes, there are always certain lines that are trickier than others, which are known to be more suitable for Pros. e.g. Master Imp lines are well known to be tricky but I don't hear anyone saying immediately "is it an ISH? OMG they are all ______"

Are not the Dutch big fans of hyperflexion? I don't think that would be the case if these horses readily accepted normal training.

Oh crikey. Let's not even go there, huh? But if we really really have to, can we start with the fact that the first person to use hyperflexion was Nicole Uphoff, on Rembrandt, because he was SO spooky. He was Westphalian, btw... by Romadour II (by Romulus I) and his dam was full sister to Ahlerich. You won't get much more German breeding than that, if my sources are correct!

 

[siennamum]

The way horses behave at liberty vs how they behave in hand or ridden is interesting and unfathomable to me.

Mine will spend time talking to the herd of cows he shares a fence line with. They are all good buddies.

If you ask him, in hand or ridden to go along the track besides the field at precisely the same spot and the cows are still at the fence he absolutely freaks.

It's a complete mystery to me.

 

[Rouletterose]

To the OP surely you know your horse well enough after all the time you've had him, to work out that it is the constant changing of yards? as told by someone else here. Surely you have worked out that very sensitive horses often in my experience take at least 2 months to settle into a new place? he needs reassurance and good solid work, you have had him long enough that he should be listening to you by now even if he is in a new environment especially after a few weeks.

It sounds as though you are overhorsed, it's all very well wanting to do it yourself, but if you are not able, far better to let someone much more experienced to work him for a few weeks until he settles, before any damage is done.

 

[kerilli]

The way horses behave at liberty vs how they behave in hand or ridden is interesting and unfathomable to me.

Mine will spend time talking to the herd of cows he shares a fence line with. They are all good buddies.

If you ask him, in hand or ridden to go along the track besides the field at precisely the same spot and the cows are still at the fence he absolutely freaks.

It's a complete mystery to me.

Yes, absolutely. I have a mare who is very sweet, polite and easy to lead around but volatile and extremely flighty when loose. She takes her cue from the handler... and I'd NEVER give her the option of bringing herself in to bed!
Also, some of the bravest ridden horses are NOT brave when left to their own devices. Murphy Himself, surely the bravest scopiest horse most of us have ever seen, was known to be an utter wuss in the field, he got bullied. No kidding. You'd think that kind of bravado would be constant, but apparently not. And some of the most dominant mares in the field are just fine for people to handle... they are smart enough to know when to throw their weight about, maybe!

Sorry OP, didn't mean to derail your thread. Rouletterose has a valid point. I think I'd be repeating "time = confidence to a horse" and giving him a lot more time, i'd prob go back to baby steps and calm repetition of v easy things, if you can, until his confidence grows again.

 

[cptrayes]

I was interpreting your exact words....... I took this to mean that this was the usual way you did it.

It did not occur to me that anyone would assume that the horse was never taught to lead just because it was not caught and led to a stable door ten feet from the gate to bring it in.

It is the way I always let my horses in. It does not mean that I neglect their groundwork.

So, his father was a GP sjer (who was, therefore, by definition manageable), and by the sounds of it your horse was 99% unmanageable, but you think his problems stemmed from his genes rather than his neck problem?

Since his father was known to be very inconsistent and quirky in spite of being in pro hands, and since his full brother exhibits some of the same extreme behaviours but no ridden physical difficultes and is a year older, yes.


Kerilli you seem to be assuming that I am against all Dutch horses. I'm not. I just wanted the OP to understand that at least one person realises that unless we actually ride and handle her horse we cannot really know what is going on, and that my experience is that there are some horses which are extremely difficult. I have heard personally of more Dutch like it than German but I'm sure there are some crazy Irish Drafts out there too.


I just hate the way people come onto a forum asking for help and saying their horse is, for example, dominant, only to be told by people who don't know it, haven't ridden it and don't know the rider that they are incorrect in describing it as dominant. This isn't aimed at you Kerilli. And it's only one example. It happens all the time on forums.

It really would be nice, if I say that my horse was like nothing I have ever owned or managed or even been anywhere near before, to be believed instead of told that I didn't know what I was doing when I was training him

 

[kerilli]

Crikey. Nobody said that you'd 'never taught to lead'... but it was very easy to infer, from what you wrote, that you let your horses bring themselves in for 3 years!
There's more room to go awol in 25 feet than 10 feet, too...
I never said that you didn't know what you were doing with him, either. What a very strange defensive attitude you have. *puzzled*