How do you improve submission in a dominant horse?

[cptrayes]

Crikey. Nobody said that you'd 'never taught to lead'... but it was very easy to infer, from what you wrote, that you let your horses bring themselves in for 3 years!
There's more room to go awol in 25 feet than 10 feet, too...
I never said that you didn't know what you were doing with him, either. What a very strange defensive attitude you have. *puzzled*

What is it with this picking over individual words K?

HIS stable door was 10 feet from the gate. My hunter's is around 25 feet from the gate and my third, if I have one,'s stable is right at the gate.


I've let my horses bring themselves in for 21 years, not 3 If someone told me that they would walk out into a muddy field in the dark to put headcollars and ropes on three horses and lead them into stables a maximum of 25 feet away I would laugh at how stupid they were to get their own boots dirty

 

[kirstykate]

If you want control just put the horse in draw reins

Wish I was as brave as you

 

[LCH611]

[QUOTE

It sounds as though you are overhorsed, it's all very well wanting to do it yourself, but if you are not able, far better to let someone much more experienced to work him for a few weeks until he settles, before any damage is done.[/QUOTE]

Blimey that's a bit harsh! I agree with CPTrayes that some horses are just difficult and without seing the horse & rider together we can't really hope to understand what might work for them and all we can do is offer up suggestions/experiences.

I don't think it is right to assume that all horses are unsettled by a change of yards/routine either, as mine don't seem to be even though they have had massive changes. I expect to be able to ride them in different/varied environments without a problem, so i start with the positive attitude of assuming that they are going to be fine- although I like to give myself a head start by assuming that they are being fed correctly.

I have found the groundwork/in hand debate really interesting (& thank God it got back on track before we were onto another yawnsome bitch-fest & sucking up session around the Sparkle Sisters). I am always short of time bringing my 4 in and out, but I have now worked out which ones can always be trusted to take themselves to the correct place if allowed to be free range, and which one absolutely can't under any circumstances be allowed to go any futher han the threshod of his stable to the back by himself! He always gets tempted to go rampaging off aking as many chums with him as possible. Funnily enough it isn't the most playful one who is the problem as he always goes straight to his own stable regardless of what everyone else is doing.

 

[kerilli]

What is it with this picking over individual words K?

HIS stable door was 10 feet from the gate. My hunter's is around 25 feet from the gate and my third, if I have one,'s stable is right at the gate.


I've let my horses bring themselves in for 21 years, not 3 If someone told me that they would walk out into a muddy field in the dark to put headcollars and ropes on three horses and lead them into stables a maximum of 25 feet away I would laugh at how stupid they were to get their own boots dirty

much becomes clear.

 

[kerilli]

I am always short of time bringing my 4 in and out, but I have now worked out which ones can always be trusted to take themselves to the correct place if allowed to be free range, and which one absolutely can't under any circumstances be allowed to go any futher han the threshod of his stable to the back by himself! He always gets tempted to go rampaging off aking as many chums with him as possible. Funnily enough it isn't the most playful one who is the problem as he always goes straight to his own stable regardless of what everyone else is doing.

Yes, this. It's a judgement call, which ones will be fine and which ones absolutely won't. In the case of my one who is very flighty and overreactive, it's not only that she'd endanger herself and possibly the others, it would set her confidence back hugely, I am positive.

 

[Supanova]

This thread is like a soap opera - great entertainment!!

I sometimes think that anyone who posts should also be required to put a video of themselves riding..........however i can see this would also end in a some long running, endless argument!

 

[bananas_22]

Its a shame for the OP if they cannot derive anything useful from this thread, but I do thank you for providing such an entertaining and enlightening thread!!

 

[LCH611]

Yes, this. It's a judgement call, which ones will be fine and which ones absolutely won't. In the case of my one who is very flighty and overreactive, it's not only that she'd endanger herself and possibly the others, it would set her confidence back hugely, I am positive.

My flighty and very overreactive one is always especially pleased with himself when I make an error of judgement and decide to trust to him to go by himself. It usually entails laps through the barn, a bounce up a bank, a hurtle through some bushes a drop down a bigger bank and then back through the barn to rinse & repeat again. When the brambles & nettles have died down he also remembers that there is a potential exit onto 1600 acres of estate which provides great opportunity for mayhem!

 

[daffy44]

This thread is like a soap opera - great entertainment!!

I sometimes think that anyone who posts should also be required to put a video of themselves riding..........however i can see this would also end in a some long running, endless argument!

Totally agree! I am a new poster, and i have to admit to being horrified at the behaviour of some posters, much better to see it as entertainment!

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

much becomes clear.

crying.with.laughter.

 

[kerilli]

This thread is like a soap opera - great entertainment!!

I sometimes think that anyone who posts should also be required to put a video of themselves riding..........however i can see this would also end in a some long running, endless argument!

Isn't it just? Wish I sold popcorn... the OP is probably dreading coming back to the thread every time now...
Some of us have linked to vids of ourselves riding, or included lots of pics on our posts. Warts and all, you know... the way it is in real life. I'll post a link to mine if you want. *shrugs* nothing at all to hide here.

 

[cptrayes]

My flighty and very overreactive one is always especially pleased with himself when I make an error of judgement and decide to trust to him to go by himself. It usually entails laps through the barn, a bounce up a bank, a hurtle through some bushes a drop down a bigger bank and then back through the barn to rinse & repeat again. When the brambles & nettles have died down he also remembers that there is a potential exit onto 1600 acres of estate which provides great opportunity for mayhem!

Well that would be a stupid thing to do, let a horse come in by himself if he has access to any number of ways to escape, wouldn't it?

My horses, on the other hand, are coming into an area which is completely enclosed, 45 feet by 15 feet, where the only option is to stand on the concrete yard or go into their stable and eat.

Anyone who would choose to headcollar their horses and get their boots muddy leading three horses in, in that situation, would, in my humblest opinion, want their heads examined

 

[ellie_e]

Well that would be a stupid thing to do, let a horse come in by himself if he has access to any number of ways to escape, wouldn't it?

My horses, on the other hand, are coming into an area which is completely enclosed, 45 feet by 15 feet, where the only option is to stand on the concrete yard or go into their stable and eat.

Anyone who would choose to headcollar their horses and get their boots muddy leading three horses in, in that situation, would, in my humblest opinion, want their heads examined

What happened to the old BHS way of leading the damm animal in?? Surely it's easier than, going all monty Roberts on them?!

 

[cptrayes]

What happened to the old BHS way of leading the damm animal in?? Surely it's easier than, going all monty Roberts on them?!

I don't understand your comment

How can it be easier for one person to go out into the mud, headcollar three horses and lead them in one by one than to open a gate and allow three horses to walk calmly into their respective stables?

I'm afraid I don't believe in expending unnecessary time or energy on a dark winter's night

 

[kerilli]

What happened to the old BHS way of leading the damm animal in?? Surely it's easier than, going all monty Roberts on them?!

*applause*

Sorry, but I can't help thinking that someone with a horse which sounds as if it was a total and utter fruitcake, but who chose the blur the boundaries every single day for years between 'totally at liberty in the field, do whatever you want sunshine' and 'you're required to come in and do something, so please defer to the human, even if just for 20 secs from gate to stable', just to avoid getting a bit of mud on their wellies, really might need their head examined...

 

[ellie_e]

I don't understand your comment

How can it be easier for one person to go out into the mud, headcollar three horses and lead them in one by one than to open a gate and allow three horses to walk calmly into their respective stables?

I'm afraid I don't believe in expending unnecessary time or energy on a dark winter's night

Are you joking me? You say your horse is a complete nutter and then let it bring itself in...... What happened to lead one horse at a time.....safely! And where there's horse there will ALWAYS be mud!!

 

[ellie_e]

There's also another staying....... Animals take after their owners!......nuts?

 

[cptrayes]

Kerilli can you please explain to me whose horses (which are not 24/7 stabled) do not live in a situation where the owner is saying every day:


" 'totally at liberty in the field, do whatever you want sunshine' and 'you're required to come in and do something, so please defer to the human," ???


Your post makes no sense to me. The 20 seconds that they are spending putting themselves in their boxes is not time I am asking them to defer to me. They are choosing to go for their food. The only thing I ask of them at that time is that they come in quietly one at a time, and that they walk around me and don't invade my space.

You are correct in your initial statement. My KWPN was indeed a fruitcake. I'm glad you got that point.

 

[cptrayes]

Are you joking me? You say your horse is a complete nutter and then let it bring itself in...... What happened to lead one horse at a time.....safely! And where there's horse there will ALWAYS be mud!!

Have you read the thread?

There was no danger from this animal in that situation. His reaction, very occasionally, was to refuse to come through the gate, not to come in and cause any trouble.

Just because there is mud does not seem, to me, to be any reason to stand in it unnecessarily

Can I offer any of you lurkers popcorn? This looks like it might run for some time, but I will have to take a break for Red Dwarf in a moment

 

[MontyandZoom]

" who chose the blur the boundaries every single day for years between 'totally at liberty in the field, do whatever you want sunshine' and 'you're required to come in and do something, so please defer to the human, even if just for 20 secs from gate to stable' "

Erm.....cptrayes, you kinda left out a pretty important bit of Kerilli's post! It's the blurring the boundries between work time and play time that she was commenting on

Generally when horses are asked to come in they are asked to defer to humans........by letting yours wander in, but then expecting them to tie-up/be shod/be ridden etc it sends mixed messages. (correct me if I'm wrong Kerilli ).

Anyhoo - jumping in.....then jumping out again. Very entertaining stuff

 

[kerilli]

Riiight... when I said "totally at liberty in the field, do whatever you want sunshine' and 'you're required to come in and do something, so please defer to the human' I was trying to illustrate that for most horse owners (and therefore their horses), that represents a total and utterly clear dichotomy. The horse at liberty in the field can do pretty much whatever he wants (okay, no fly pasts at me, and no squabbling if I'm near) but as soon as I ask the horse to leave that area of total freedom, he is MINE, he does as I say. He walks, he stops. He waits. He learns obedience. This gives confidence, both ways.
They know that they'll be required to wait etc. Maybe initially they're bargy, impatient. It doesn't work. They learn and are rewarded. After a bit of this you get the horse who automatically walks through the gate on the end of the rope, turns cleverly with the rope slack, and waits for you to fasten the gate, then walks on with you without needing to be told, pulled etc. Yes? Little bits of daily conditioning to teach the horse obedience, security, reward, teamwork, yadda yadda.
With a horse that presumably came to you with a reputation as a nutter, and did nothing good to dispel that idea, why on earth would you bypass a daily opportunity to create all these good habits, just because you're too lazy to put a headcollar on and take them out of the field one at a time and get a bit of mud on your boots?!
That really is crazy. Or, as a friend used to say, bats**t mental...

Yes MontyandZoom, exactly. Nail on head.

 

[cptrayes]

Riiight... when I said "totally at liberty in the field, do whatever you want sunshine' and 'you're required to come in and do something, so please defer to the human' I was trying to illustrate that for most horse owners (and therefore their horses), that represents a total and utterly clear dichotomy. The horse at liberty in the field can do pretty much whatever he wants (okay, no fly pasts at me, and no squabbling if I'm near) but as soon as I ask the horse to leave that area of total freedom, he is MINE, he does as I say. He walks, he stops. He waits. He learns obedience. This gives confidence, both ways.
They know that they'll be required to wait etc. Maybe initially they're bargy, impatient. It doesn't work. They learn and are rewarded. After a bit of this you get the horse who automatically walks through the gate on the end of the rope, turns cleverly with the rope slack, and waits for you to fasten the gate, then walks on with you without needing to be told, pulled etc. Yes? Little bits of daily conditioning to teach the horse obedience, security, reward, teamwork, yadda yadda.
With a horse that presumably came to you with a reputation as a nutter, and did nothing good to dispel that idea, why on earth would you bypass a daily opportunity to create all these good habits, just because you're too lazy to put a headcollar on and take them out of the field one at a time and get a bit of mud on your boots?!
.

You think that kind of training is absolutely critical for the one minute when you bring the horse in from the field? You think if you miss that one minute it matters in the whole scheme of spending a couple of hours a day with the horse?

Now you are making me smile

I'll keep on keeping my boots clean I think

 

[Ferdinase514]

Wish I was as brave as you

You think i'm joking..... I think draw reins are the way to go

 

[kerilli]

You think that kind of training is absolutely critical for the one minute when you bring the horse in from the field? You think if you miss that one minute it matters in the whole scheme of spending a couple of hours a day with the horse?

Now you are making me smile

I'll keep on keeping my boots clean I think

Yes, I absolutely do think so. There's nothing at all special about me doing this stuff, millions of us do it every day with our horses, without thinking.
It's the NOT doing it that requires very very careful thought, especially with a quirky difficult horse. If you really can't see that then I give up.

 

[cptrayes]

There's nothing at all special about me doing this stuff, millions of us do it every day with our horses, without thinking.

Why do you assume that I could not fetch them in one by one with a headcollar if I chose? Of course I could. I just don't when I want them all in together. When I want them one by one, I do exactly that. You are quite right, there is absolutely nothing special about it.

If you really can't see that then I give up.

Since no horse has ever left me behaving anything other than better than it arrived (especially so in the case of the nutter), then I will gratefully accept your offer to give up trying to persuade me that your way is the only way. Night night

 

[cptrayes]

delete

 

[Rouletterose]

[QUOTE

It sounds as though you are overhorsed, it's all very well wanting to do it yourself, but if you are not able, far better to let someone much more experienced to work him for a few weeks until he settles, before any damage is done.

Blimey that's a bit harsh! I agree with CPTrayes that some horses are just difficult and without seing the horse & rider together we can't really hope to understand what might work for them and all we can do is offer up suggestions/experiences.

I don't think it is right to assume that all horses are unsettled by a change of yards/routine either, as mine don't seem to be even though they have had massive changes. I expect to be able to ride them in different/varied environments without a problem, so i start with the positive attitude of assuming that they are going to be fine- although I like to give myself a head start by assuming that they are being fed correctly.

I have found the groundwork/in hand debate really interesting (& thank God it got back on track before we were onto another yawnsome bitch-fest & sucking up session around the Sparkle Sisters). I am always short of time bringing my 4 in and out, but I have now worked out which ones can always be trusted to take themselves to the correct place if allowed to be free range, and which one absolutely can't under any circumstances be allowed to go any futher han the threshod of his stable to the back by himself! He always gets tempted to go rampaging off aking as many chums with him as possible. Funnily enough it isn't the most playful one who is the problem as he always goes straight to his own stable regardless of what everyone else is doing.[/QUOTE]

Have you actually read the OP first 4 posts? I think not, you shouldn't make comments until you have fully read the problem.

 

[kerilli]

Why do you assume that I could not fetch them in one by one with a headcollar if I chose? Of course I could. I just don't when I want them all in together. When I want them one by one, I do exactly that. You are quite right, there is absolutely nothing special about it.

The point is not that you could, it's that you chose not to... every day. For years, apparently. That makes a HUGE difference. Obviously you cannot see that though, which speaks volumes.

Since no horse has ever left me behaving anything other than better than it arrived (especially so in the case of the nutter), then I will gratefully accept your offer to give up trying to persuade me that your way is the only way. Night night

Not 'my way' at all - crikey, I'd be a bigheaded delusional idiot if I thought I was the only one in the world who instills a few manners when leading a horse in and out every day! But it is the way the huge majority of horsey people choose to move their horses around... for good reason! Of course it's not the only way.

 

[cptrayes]

But Kerilli my horses have better manners on the ground than most people's. Except for occasional bizarre behaviour by one, who was immensely improved when he died at 10 from the horse I bought at 4.

And yet you seem to think that just because I choose not to catch my horses to bring them in at night, even though I do at other times, that I am somehow not able to give them manners.

Illogical, sorry, and totally incorrect.



Anyone ready for more popcorn yet? I could break open bottle if anyone's interested?

 

[kerilli]

But Kerilli my horses have better manners than most peoples. Except for occasional bizarre and unpredictable behaviour by one, who was immensely improved when he died at 10 from the horse I bought at 4.

And yet you seem to think that just because I choose not to catch my horses to bring them in I am somehow not able to give them manners.

Illogical, sorry, and totally incorrect.

Oh crikey... it honestly isn't just about instilling manners at all, that's a very small part of it... it's about total consistency, NOT blurring the boundaries!
I can't quite believe it, but it seems you cannot even see that. Or, are you just playing devil's advocate?
This was apparently a totally illogical nutcase of a horse which took 6 years to get an improvement out of, and then it died, you said...
now I really am giving up.
nn everyone. hope you enjoyed your popcorn!