How do you improve submission in a dominant horse?

[cptrayes]

Oh crikey... it honestly isn't just about instilling manners at all, that's a very small part of it... it's about total consistency, NOT blurring the boundaries!

I don't blur the boundaries. The rules for coming into the yard are the same ones as when they are in their stables. The moment they pass through that gate the rules are my rules, playtime is over.

I can't quite believe it, but it seems you cannot even see that. Or, are you just playing devil's advocate?

No, I just think you are wrong that it matters so much that I don't put headcollars on my horses to bring them in from the field.

This was apparently a totally illogical nutcase of a horse which took 6 years to get an improvement out of, and then it died, you said...

In six years in my care the horse improved beyond recognition. It was a crying shame, quite literally, that he died just when all my hard work was paying off big time. I also loved him like no other horse before, he had a personality the size of a house.

now I really am giving up.

Ah, now you've promised me that once already. I hope you mean it this time.
Nighty night.

 

[TarrSteps]

It was me who made the observation that the horse did not sound dominant, in the way that term is used in behaviour theory, leaving aside it's validity as a concept in Equine training.

I also made the point that 'submission' in the way it's used in dressage/training is a different concept again. This horse may or may not need to be 'dominated', he certainly needs to be made more submissive to the rider/aids but there may, in fact, be numerous paths to that end.

 

[Supanova]

I am not taking sides on this but I would just like to applaud both cptrayes and kerrilli for their persistence!

Kerrilli - i have a lot of respect for you from your various posts and i have seen your videos so i know that your words are backed up by riding experience!

cptrayes - i don't know anything about you but it seems for some reason that there is some underlying argument with you and the princesssparkle and there are other people on this forum who have taken against you! I don't know the background to this but I am impressed that you have not just given up on your argument whether it be right or wrong!!

As a final word (or two)...i agree that there are odd horses that will always be difficult but as someone else on here said.........horses are most often a reflection of their owner........

 

[LCH611]

Riiight... when I said "totally at liberty in the field, do whatever you want sunshine' and 'you're required to come in and do something, so please defer to the human' I was trying to illustrate that for most horse owners (and therefore their horses), that represents a total and utterly clear dichotomy. The horse at liberty in the field can do pretty much whatever he wants (okay, no fly pasts at me, and no squabbling if I'm near) but as soon as I ask the horse to leave that area of total freedom, he is MINE, he does as I say. He walks, he stops. He waits. He learns obedience. This gives confidence, both ways.
They know that they'll be required to wait etc. Maybe initially they're bargy, impatient. It doesn't work. They learn and are rewarded. After a bit of this you get the horse who automatically walks through the gate on the end of the rope, turns cleverly with the rope slack, and waits for you to fasten the gate, then walks on with you without needing to be told, pulled etc. Yes? Little bits of daily conditioning to teach the horse obedience, security, reward, teamwork, yadda yadda.
.

This is an extremely valid point. I am guilty of being in such a rush with reduced daylight hours, no electricity, school run & commute to work that I have slipped into the habit of only leading the naughty one & the newly acquired baby, leaving the slow pottery pony who lags behind & gets nipped by the others to come with his rope round his neck, & the one that otherwise has to be retrieved from the bottom of the field to bring himself in, in order to save precious minutes. Once in their stables however they all have to back up & be polite about being fed, rugged & having feet picked out.

Rouletterose of course I have read the first 4 posts - I am glued to this thread because of its fascinating mix of useful insights & Cptrayes' utter determination to be bloodyminded & fight with everyone. If more posts are added whilst I rush out to get more popcorn I will read them with great alacrity when i get back!

 

[BeckyD]

Crikey I've missed all the fun! Blame a busy week at work.

OP it does sound like your horses is simply unsettled with the move - as persevering riding isn't working then I'd perhaps give him a little holiday and see if that helps.

As regards all the other stuff, I'm afraid the only horses I've known be allowed to bring themselves in have been opinionated b*ggers who have absolutely zero respect for humans. Well, perhaps a little. But not enough to make them pleasant to work with.

My previous horse was a dominant TB, dominant in a stalliony way (vets blood-tested him and he wasn't a rig, although subsequent vets questionned the results as they didn't think they could be right). He could be difficult to handle on the ground. In fact, he could be vicious. To ride, he was FANTASTIC. Seriously wonderful. I never quite understand how that could be possible. Anyway, the one thing he taught me, was that the stable was "his" space and woebetide me if I tried to do anything to him whilst he was at liberty in there. If I wanted to groom him or change rugs etc, he came out and was tied up. He was then charming. Much the same in the field. I recall a "Tigger on Speed" incident when I tried poo-picking with him in there

Anyway, the purpose of my waffle is to say that I'm afraid I wouldn't be letting horses bring themselves in. From my limited experience I have found that being the leader of the pack is so important, and not something we should give up on simply due to the fear of mud/tight timescales. Those are not reasons to (IMO) cut corners.

 

[Kelpie]

This is an extremely valid point. I am guilty of being in such a rush with reduced daylight hours, no electricity, school run & commute to work that I have slipped into the habit of only leading the naughty one & the newly acquired baby, leaving the slow pottery pony who lags behind & gets nipped by the others to come with his rope round his neck, & the one that otherwise has to be retrieved from the bottom of the field to bring himself in, in order to save precious minutes. Once in their stables however they all have to back up & be polite about being fed, rugged & having feet picked out.

Rouletterose of course I have read the first 4 posts - I am glued to this thread because of its fascinating mix of useful insights & Cptrayes' utter determination to be bloodyminded & fight with everyone. If more posts are added whilst I rush out to get more popcorn I will read them with great alacrity when i get back!

Another one here with their popcorn

However.... Shoot me if u will but with my lot, once they know what's what and are general well behaved, I am not convinced it does any harm to be flexible in some things .... My most established lad I event on is welcome to let me know if he wants to stay in or out (tho always politely) and it also makes life easier sometimes to bring the youngsters in and let him come in by himself and it hasn't caused him to be any the less good overall as a result. OTOH, much stricter rules with the youngsters.... Horses for courses maybe?

 

[cptrayes]

As regards all the other stuff, I'm afraid the only horses I've known be allowed to bring themselves in have been opinionated b*ggers who have absolutely zero respect for humans. Well, perhaps a little. But not enough to make them pleasant to work with.

You haven't met mine. They have manners to burn. I do not have to tie them up to do anything with them. I even trim their feet without tying them up. They have total respect for me and a child could handle them in spite of them both being 17 handers, sharp and fit.

Anyway, the purpose of my waffle is to say that I'm afraid I wouldn't be letting horses bring themselves in. From my limited experience I have found that being the leader of the pack is so important, and not something we should give up on simply due to the fear of mud/tight timescales. Those are not reasons to (IMO) cut corners.

I am leader of the pack, nothing has been "given up on". I do not need to waste my time and get my boots dirty in order to be leader of the pack with my horses.

I am not tight for time. I am extremely lucky and can generally spend several hours a day with my horses. I choose not to dirty my boots because it is absolutely pointless to do so.

If you need to get your boots dirty and waste time bringing in horses one by one, so be it. But please don't think we are all unable to control our horses if we allow them to walk calmly into a small yard and put themselves into their stables.

I've heard of lot of nonsense on threads on this board but this thread is priceless

More popcorn anyone? I'm afraid I've just polished off the Cabernet

 

[cptrayes]

Cptrayes' utter determination to be bloodyminded & fight with everyone.

Excuse me?

I made what I hoped would be one helpful suggestion to the OP and was attacked for my suggestion by a number of other posters.

Since when has it been a crime to defend yourself and tell other people that you do not agree with their views?

I object strongly to the way you have written about me in this post.

 

[Andiamo]

Hello again, fellow posters...

this thread went way off track...and to be honest, I haven't read past page 4, and don't feel the need to read the following:
- personal attacks from some certain posters against others
- complete disrespect of each other's opinions and experiences
- utter nonsensical advice being uttered by people who don't even understand the original question
- it descended into arguments, bickering, slandering

It is such a misuse of this forum.
Do those of you who have launched personal attacks, and been rude / disrespectful - did it make you feel better? Did it prove to everyone that you know what you're talking about? Did it prove that you're right?

The answer to all these questions is a two letter word.

I would hope that going forward, that you show some respect for other people, and behave yourself when posting. Abide by the phrase: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".

As a bit of fun, with regards to the argument about horses being led with headcollars / bridles... watch this video. I think someone had better call the BHS police immediately - this man MUST be stopped!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpoHaUBi9QY&feature=related



Now behave!!!!

 

[TarrSteps]

So, how is your horse getting on?

 

[Amaranta]

actually you cure it by doing consistant logical work in and around fillers so the work becomes the comfort blanket and the horse learns to focus on that and not its surroundings.

you dont stop him looking, you train him not to want or need to do it, big difference.

at what level did said horse compete and how did he/she progress with that method of training? how did scores improve etc?

I completely agree with this.

I also agree about the double bridle, too many people are too quick to resort to one and forget about the training, as a judge I see this quite often (and as PS says, I WILL comment) and as a competitor my AM horse is still in a snaffle and getting decent scores.

 

[AmyMay]

Absolutely I was thinking that as I wrote it



I wouldn't mind him being out, I have enough turn out rugs for him. But then he wouldn't get his twice daily feeds, because I can't get there twice a day. I moved from DIY because I needed the extra help, also the mucking out and field poo-picking was killing my back (old riding injuries). If he goes back on grass, I will be back to having to poo pick (unless I can find someone to do and pay them). Grass livery definitely is kinder on the wallet. It also made him easier, and less stressed. Hmmm, must consider this option...

Seems like (at least for the moment anyway) 24/7 turnout could be your answer. It will obviously need someone seeing to the horse twice a day (clearly). But that's what I'd go with.

Moving yards can be hugely stressful for some horses - and your horse sounds stressed. That coupled with the fact that he sees you only once a day (the one constant in his life) must be adding to the stress. Especially as you are stressed about his lack of 'submission'.......

Seems like the poor horse doesn't know whether it's coming or going.

 

[henryhorn]

I have followed this thread with interest, there has been some wise advice given and some excuses at times from you why it isn't possible to follow it.
I find some things confusing, if you are as experienced as you say (and truly I'm not being bitchy just stating a fact) you would know why your horse is behaving the way he is.
He has changed homes, a deeply unsettling thing in many horse's lives so of course he is stressed. Imagine starting a new school and facing unknown pupils who may bite/kick or just ignore you. The kindest way to cope with a move like this is a week of nothing but chill out time. No riding just visits from you with titbits and a reassuring groom now and then.
The ridden problems need help by ground work. Not the natural horsemanship type start lungeing him with two reins back to your hands and do everything you would do when riding him. Any spooking or messing about is solvable with two reins, as is that rushed canter. You may find you have to be fairly determined re his slowing his canter down but using two reins gives you finesse if you do it enough times. He will also feel secure being able to see you and know you are there on the bridle.
The other thing is feeding. I would be ensuring he has ad lib forage if he has to be in and virtually no hard feed until he settles.
As for turn out if you really must have him in overnight (and I appreciate some yards insist) then try and turn him out as many hours as you can, and with just two companions not in a massive bunch.
I think the majority of partnerships go through problem stages, I know we do with our horses, but we always sit and think hard why and always there is a reason. One thing I have learned and it is a very difficult thing for one horse owners to ever understand, is sometimes the horse you have bought for a specific discipline just isn't mentally suited for it. You probably love your horse but ask yourself, has the the brain to cope with what you want from him? If the answer is no then find something he loves and does well and sell him on.
I have been breeding horses for many years now and some just don't suit a specific job; often they excell doing something else and I do wonder with all the difficulties mentioned in this thread whether he is what you need.
I understand your basic request in the original post, but quite honestly if you have to ask then you may not be the right person for this horse either.. It takes a lot to sometimes face facts, from what you have said he may perform better in a professional's hands where he won't even attempt to try it on.
Apologies if this offends but you did ask for help, I would also suggest if you don't want to turn him away for a week get a good instructor to watch you ride him (and I mean someone who is a well known dressage name, not the average BHSAI). Those top trainers can make an enormous difference in even one session, do pm me if you want some name suggestions..

 

[TarrSteps]

^ Very good advice, if not always what people want to hear. The old "never teach a pig to sing" idea.

Also, OP, these threads are always a bit "to the common knowledge" not just to the person who starts them, especially since the people offering advice may actually have other people in mind when they are answering. It's always useful to think what advice YOU would give, if you were not on the receiving end, just to cut the emotion a bit.

 

[Froggy1990]

Yes, very silly of you.

In future, may I suggest you use the following phrase; "The discussion is not relevant to me, my sister or either of our horses, let us not discuss them further " instead of the in-depth analysis? You think you could do that???

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

hmmm, you've made precisely 3 posts since joining, all to have a dig, and having got this thread back on track, oh look here you are to de-rail it again......

perhaps you could try and find somthing more relevant to contribute??? you think you could do that?

 

[kerilli]

PS, do you want some popcorn to feed that troll? there seems to be a lot of it around here...

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

i think my greedy OH ate all my popcorn so yeah, extra popcorn would be appreciated K...........!

 

[bex1984]

I know nothing, so maybe I am being overly simplistic here...but sounds like horse is just unsettled by the move and/or needs more turnout?! Especially as OP states that things were going well 80% of the time before the move and it's just been a big step backwards. It's easy to over-analyse and worry and stress, when maybe all that is needed is a bit of time to settle and adjust?