How flat are these feet? **pics**

[PapaFrita]

I hope you don't mean me? I'm actually quite intelligent and knowledgeable. I know when I'm out of my depth and never hesitate to call en expert when I'm in doubt. I also question information when something doesn't sound right. I'm not just picking on you.
No hard feelings?

 

[hoofsculpture]

hi when you do you study, and if you find what i was saying
to be correct, will you be woman enough to admit it

 

[PapaFrita]

Of course. If you're right I will publically admit it. I have absolutely no problem admitting I've been wrong. Likewise, I may find that Nailed or TheFarrier (if he posts) are right

 

[vicijp]

OP - Your horses feet aren't horrifically bad, and good to see your farrier is doing something to improve them.
I'm not a fan of great big heavy shoes on horses with problems, ask your farrier about Imprints.
I have used them once (the horse did have laminitis), and they drastically altered his feet to be being near perfect (were upright and boxy before).
I wouldn't hesitate to use them on a case like this.

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
i can be bothered because i have given her good advice

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't mean to be pedantic - but all I can see that you've posted is criticisms - not actual advice on what you as a supposed professional would consider a good option for this particular horse.

I'm still really interested to hear your views on this.

 

[TheFarrier]

My two pennies worth? hi PF

to go back to OP, yes the horses soles are flat, you have been given some good advice and the only other product i would recommend is Hoof Heal but i think you have more than enough to be going along with. I suggest you ask your farrier to put equipak in as the horse may be on and off lame because of something simple such as flat soles and if they are thin or weak they can creat a lot of pain.

I think egg bar shoes should be used with caution and are not a long term shoing method, a few shoeings and then you need to re-evaluate and try something else. Why has your farrier put the egg bars on? (im sorry if you did say later on but i dont have time to read all the replies im sorry) *i think vicijp has a good point

I think that the toe needs shortening as has been pointed out but sometimes change has to be more gradual otherwise you just risk making the problem worse.

I dont think the job that has been done is a bad one, i think your farrier probably did everything he did with a specific reason (which we may not have access too as we have not seen your horse in person)

Try the equipak, i imagine your farrier will shorten those toes again (as you can see he has already) and if the horse is still not right i am all for the suggestions of the last step in your lameness work up. Give the shoes a chance first, and the farrier to take the toes back further. But if you are concerned have a chat with your farrier and find out why he has done what he has done and dont be shy to confirm it with you vet is you feel the need.

Going to work now.

 

[hoofsculpture]

i can see, that no matter what i would say on this forum, there are people waiting to disagree with everything.
i teach farriers how to deal with difficult problems, but
that counts for nothing on this forum. how can so many people know all there is to know about horses feet, and still need a farrier .
rocky715 is well informed, but not on this forum, if you were me would you post any more, only to be told how wrong you are by all the experts

 

[ester]

hs you have still not said how you would treat those feet.

Therefore forum readers are a) not learning anything constructive from you b) struggle to give you credibility the credibility your want because you are just saying what is wrong you have not once said how you would treat those feet.

In comparison to say naileds and thefarriers replies who are always pretty comprehensive and helpful and easy for all to understand. Other members give there EXPERIENCES of what has happened to their horses which is mostly what happens in most of the threads in the hope that the OP can take something from that.

I worry about you blocking 'the forum' into one thing, there are many people using it and many more viewing it. Most of us gather all the info we can from the forum, put it into a big bucket, give it a good stir and pick out what is relevant to our situations. Of course there will be people who disagree with you thats life and the care of horses noone does it all the same way.

 

[AmyMay]

[ QUOTE ]
if you were me would you post any more, only to be told how wrong you are by all the experts

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not an expert, and my knowledge of shoeing and the foot is limited. I have an ongoing problem with my horses feet - a situation which is not dissimilar to the OP, and am keen to learn more.

So far I have confirmed in my own mind from reading other posts that my farrier and vet are working well together.

Vickijp has mentioned Imprint shoes - which I may discuss with my team.

And finally I would like to hear what you would do to support the horse in the OP, which as I have said bears some relation to my own situation.

 

[Nailed]

I am far from an expect on the equine hoof, and have never professed to be an expert, and I always encourage forum members to take TheFarriers advice above my own.

However, My comments are usually well informed and constructive. Two things that yours dont seem to be.

Im sorry but if you come on to this forum with that attitude you are going to get shouted down Im afraid!

Fiona, How is he today?!

Lou x

 

[LouBerry]

I'd just like to say i fully sympathise with the OP as i have had a very long battle with my horses feet which unfortunately were very similar to yours, although hers were a lot worse. I realise what a long, frustrating struggle it is and really hope that in the end you can get it sorted. I'm no expert so i'm not going to try and suggest anything based on my experiences as i know each horse is very different and what worked/didn't work for mine might not work for yours.

Just to ask, do insurance companies no longer cover for flat feet conditions? Phew thank god mine was two years ago!! They luckily covered me for the year long investigation.

Have included a few pictures for you of her feet in 2007.

near front

off front

 

[Honeypots]

[ QUOTE ]
hs you have still not said how you would treat those feet.

Therefore forum readers are a) not learning anything constructive from you b) struggle to give you credibility the credibility your want because you are just saying what is wrong you have not once said how you would treat those feet.

In comparison to say naileds and thefarriers replies who are always pretty comprehensive and helpful and easy for all to understand. Other members give there EXPERIENCES of what has happened to their horses which is mostly what happens in most of the threads in the hope that the OP can take something from that.

I worry about you blocking 'the forum' into one thing, there are many people using it and many more viewing it. Most of us gather all the info we can from the forum, put it into a big bucket, give it a good stir and pick out what is relevant to our situations. Of course there will be people who disagree with you thats life and the care of horses noone does it all the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with this...

Hoofsculpture...almost everything you comment on is slamming what is already being done.
You commented on a post of mine about a pony I have which has been confirmed as having laminitis on and off over the last three years by 3 different vet practices and 2 farriers..has had xrays to show the rotation yet you told me he had no laminitis, little rotation, the xrays were no good and he had been severely neglected over the previous years which was untrue expcept that he was allowed to continualy get overweight.
Why then, if we all got it so wrong, since he's been with me and treated for laminitis and slimmed down has he been sound and back in work

People on here would be happy to listen to your advise if you weren't quite so anti everything anyone says...it seems its your way or no way

 

[Flame_]

I've just had a look back at hs's other posts and it appears they are an advocate of some sort of hoof cast type system (please correct me if I've got that wrong hs).

I have to say, as complicated remedial shoeing has been on the whole less successful with my horses than taking the shoes off, for horses that can't be without shoes, this sort of thing sounds like the way forward.

hs, its no good just telling everyone how mis-guided they are if you can't explain where you are coming from clearly. I'm very interested in your shoeing(?) techniques but generally speaking the best techniques available to one horse owners of horses with foot problems are bars shoes and sole guard or barefoot. If you are developing better alternatives, that's fabulous, what are they?

 

[Onyxia]

[ QUOTE ]
i can be bothered because i have given her good advice

[/ QUOTE ]
I cant see any advice posted,just you saying what has been done/is planned to be done is wrong.
Sorry if thats not the case,like everyone here I am always happy to be corrected and learn something new

[ QUOTE ]
and where did i mention you as a forum i did not. i said god help the horse when i heard and seen what some so called experts were saying

[/ QUOTE ]
OK,you dont agree with some advice given.
If you are involved with horses then you will know there are 1001 ways to deal with every problem or situation-thats what makes keeping htem such a minefield.
The owner needs to consider all options and try to choose which will be best for that horse at that time.

If you feel you have posted good advice that has been ignored,it is because of how you have posted it.
The way to get a point across on a forum is to post what you see,what you would do and WHY you would do it along with expected outcome.
Even the best horsemen cant know everything which is why we call in professionals who know more about it then we do.
The others who have posted advice have given either the benifit of their experiances with their horses in a similar situation or given advice with the most important line of "get vet and farrier together,these are some options you can discuss" which is the only sensable thing.
We cant possably know everything about this horses feet from two photos,the vet and farrier are there on the ground and can see the horses from all angles in the flesh so are by far the best to advise.

[ QUOTE ]
as for you ,if you are so insulted by what was said on this forum, what are you getting involved for, lets hear what you would do with the horse.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oddly enough I read threads to learn a little about something I have not come across.
Never having worked with or owned a horse with flat feet I would offer nothing constructive other then find a vet and farrier you are confident in and follow their advice,which is allready being done.

I am not insulted by anythign you have posted,dont know where you got that from-I was simply trying to help YOU.
You said you are new/inexperianced with computers and the internet,well then take some good advice from those of us who are not

1)The second you sign onto a forum,you are no-one.
Thats a good thing,but also means whatever you have done in the real world means nothing.
2)If you see some people being listened to,it is because they are long standing members who have proved their ability to give good,sound advice time and time again- we "know" them and that what they say is based on experiance and can be trusted.
3)When what you(or anyone says) is "pulled apart" it is a discussion being held,points being looked at from all angles so that something can be learned from it.
Learnign something new is a theme that underpinns everything,here far more then many other forums and I would rather a piece of advice posted is pulled apart and looked at from all angles whoever posts it then have a situation where a few who are hero worshipped are followed blindly...

 

[hoofsculpture]

up untill about 10 years ago, there was a limited no of hoof repair products on the market, also more in depth knowlege of the equine foot is out there. so it is no longer the case that problem feet have to be, trimmed and shod as a first line strategy, heels , quarters, dorsal wall etc can now be repaired in advance of any type of shoe. the shoe is the last thing to go on. sombody mentioned imprint shoes, the are a good job, but like a steel shoe, the re shaping of the foot is first.
it must be obvious, that if the horse has almost no quarters now to nail to, then he will have less next time, the same with heels. when i started my trade , steel shoes, nails wedges, was all we had, but not now.
it is now impossible for a farrier to address all hoof problems without the products. you cant trim what,s not there, and you cant nail into what,s not there

 

[AmyMay]

So we're still no fecking wiser................

 

[hoofsculpture]

the o p,
has been given advice on what to do, it is up to her to do what she wishes with it.
but there is no point in me saying anything on the subject on this forum.
in spite of the fact that i am leaving now to do a very similar job on a horse in scotland,

 

[ester]

why is there no point on saying on the forum. Why can't everyone else benefit from the knowledge, what if someone else has horse with similar feet like amymay who would really like to know more about what you would do. Many of us would probably love to see pics of before and after photos from horse in scotland if that would then show us what you would do.

I don't understand you at all...............

 

[Rocky715]

[ QUOTE ]
Try the equipak, i imagine your farrier will shorten those toes again (as you can see he has already) and if the horse is still not right i am all for the suggestions of the last step in your lameness work up. Give the shoes a chance first, and the farrier to take the toes back further.

[/ QUOTE ]

hiya - I will definitely ask my farrier about equipak as the more I watch Rocky, the more I think any pain he is feeling is coming from his soles.
With regards to taking the toe back - my farrier has been doing this very very slowly as Rocky is very sensitive and doesn't cope very well if you take too much off too soon.

We are only keeping these shoes on probably for a total of either 8 or 12 weeks and then he is going to re asses.

Thanks for your post

 

[Rocky715]

[ QUOTE ]
Fiona, How is he today?!

Lou x

[/ QUOTE ]

he is MUCH better... but he is still not right on every stride. Now this must either be because he is still getting used to new shoes.... or still slight pain. On advice, I am going to wait until Friday...so the shoes will have been on a week.

xx

 

[Rocky715]

[ QUOTE ]


Just to ask, do insurance companies no longer cover for flat feet conditions? Phew thank god mine was two years ago!! They luckily covered me for the year long investigation.



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about other companies but mine excluded it from the word go. I am with NFU.
xx

 

[Rocky715]

HS - will you allow me to put your message that you sent me on here publicly? I genuinely believe there may be some people who could also benefit from hearing your thoughts as they are a valid point of view?

 

[LouBerry]

Hmm, i must have pipped it to the post just at the right time then as i was with NFU as well and they fully paid out luckily. Couldn't have done the remedial shoeing without it.

I'd probably say listen to your farrier and listen to your vets and try and muddle through everything anyone tells you and pick out the bits that you think are relevant. The worst thing i found was all the opinions and experiences i got told got so confusing after awhile as you couldn't please everyone!

My mare was in straight bar remedial shoes for about four months i think, then she went back to normal shoes. She spent about five months sound but unfortunately due to her clinically shi* feet the problem came back so she spent another four months back in remedial shoes by a different farrier. So what i'm trying to say is give the shoes chance to work and see how it goes. It's usually a waiting game i've found. I think i'm just in the 1% whose horse will never recover

 

[hoofsculpture]

why not rocky. good luck to you and horsey

 

[hoofsculpture]

sorry , i meant FIONA NOT ROCKY, BUT ROCKY AS WELL

 

[Rocky715]

here is the message I got from HS. Thanks for the good luck!

firstly, sorry about the stuff on the forum, i am sending you this as i really think you want advice, and i deal with far worse than this all the time,
first can i say ,dont worry ,you,r horse will be o k. i feel that you are nearly out of the woods for now.
how ever you must face facts, you horse need attention now in preparation for the next shoeing, there is no where to drive a nail, he has little or no heels, and what he has are curled inward, these cannot come good without a plan of action, and any growth there is will be forced underneath by the shoe. so i recomend what i would do in cases like this. his underrun heels should be trimmed on the inside, to encourage an outward growth, when that is done, what heel he has must be protected and built up with vettec adhere, all the dead hoofwall at the quarters[nail site] should be trimmed back and reshaped with vettec,
his toe while it does,nt look very long[long out front, not long from cornet to ground] is flared out from white line, this should be trimmed back into the stretched white line. when all this is done, his foot can be shaped for a shoe, giving him a perfectly shaped foot. the vettec can be nailed like a normal foot, and everything should stay in place for a full cycle. during this time his heels and quarters will grow as normal, pushing the repair in front of it.
after a shoeing cycle , everything can be removed for inspection. if he needs more growth, to establish full heels and quarters, do the same again untill he is correct, this procedure is only possible today because or the amazing products available. i have returned deformed feet into beautyfull to behold for many years using this method. it simply cant be done without building the heels, if you need any more advice, p m me and i will give you my e mail address, that way i could send you pictures of my work, if you find this helpfull, perhaps you could mention it on the forum, the wont listen to me. very good luck to you and you,r horse, p s if i thought you needed help bad enough i would go to you,r horse
pps go to u tube, vettec adhere, and read about the products, the save horses all the time for me

 

[Angua2]

I wish I had read that years ago, as it may have really helped my boy.

 

[ester]

Thanks for posting that Fiona, and thanks for allowing it to be posted hs, that is really interesting.

 

[Jericho]

this is exactly what my farrier is doing with equilok - its like a false hoof wall, the heels were built up with it and natural balance shoes put on. My farrier said it is a waiting game and not to give up on horse despite vets prognosis.
Hoofscuplture does actually say somevery interesting things and much in line with what my farrier has been saying - perhaps hs has a funny way of expressing it but lets not fire people down who can offer useful advice.

Rocky - good luck , I am sure it will all come right in the end - you will become best friends with farrier thats for sure!

 

[Jericho]

another excellent response, TheFarrier, without blame or criticism or provoking a slanging match - I am sure this is exactly the type of response the OP came on here for. Your opinion is well and truly valued.... even if its not my horse!