Hunting and Equine flu

[Mule]

But no-one has said that horses haven't been vaccinated against tetanus - the non vaccinated horses that the AHT are listing just haven't been given the flu vaccine. What made you think that some horse owners don't vaccine against tet?

The poster I originally quoted (sel) wrote the following -
"Eye opening how many people don't vaccinate. Can't imagine why you wouldn't want to protect your horse against tetanus. Lots of weird science appearing in FB 😕"
That's what I was replying to.

 

[The-Bookworm]

I don't know where it's been reported that a horse has died, and I'm not sure it's true, but if it is, it definitely ISN'T one of the McCain horses!

It's on here.

 

[ester]

FH DNA sequencing isn’t the initial test it’s PCR. I haven’t checked but would expect them to have an ‘all flu’ then a species specific PCR test.
The sequencing be carried out is to find out if/what has changed which takes a bit longer.

They usually take a nasal pharyngeal swab for PCR and blood for antibodies.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

The poster I originally quoted (sel) wrote the following -
"Eye opening how many people don't vaccinate. Can't imagine why you wouldn't want to protect your horse against tetanus. Lots of weird science appearing in FB 😕"
That's what I was replying to.

I'm sorry, I thought the original comment was yours but there is no evidence that people are not vaccinating against tetanus. There are a lot of people who don't vaccinate against flu, if they don't compete affiliated, at least in part because the vaccine doesn't stop horses getting flu -depending on which strain has been vaccinated against. I don't know who the original poster was but I think they have misunderstood the AHT's figures.

 

[Rowreach]

But no-one has said that horses haven't been vaccinated against tetanus - the non vaccinated horses that the AHT are listing just haven't been given the flu vaccine. What made you think that some horse owners don't vaccine against tet?

I did (also in answer to Sel and mule). Lots of people don't vaccinate against tetanus over here.

 

[ester]

I think it was just a conversational comment given the conversations occurring elsewhere on social media right now about the evils of vaccination/plentybdont vaccinate against tet.

 

[Mule]

I think it was just a conversational comment given the conversations occurring elsewhere on social media right now about the evils of vaccination/plentybdont vaccinate against tet.

That was it.

 

[flying_high]

FH DNA sequencing isn’t the initial test it’s PCR. I haven’t checked but would expect them to have an ‘all flu’ then a species specific PCR test.
The sequencing be carried out is to find out if/what has changed which takes a bit longer.

They usually take a nasal pharyngeal swab for PCR and blood for antibodies.

Thanks.

So the two Kent and Middlesex recently announced are like to definitely be Equine flu but may not be the current mutant strain of concern.

Once pcr done to see if are mutant strain of concern, if they are will be added to AHT list?

On a similar train of thought are all the cases on AHT list FC1 / current mutant strain? Or are the ones saying ongoing (some dated January) unknown / untested / could be any version of equine influenza.

Ps I did a biochemistry degree and it’s a long time since I last referred to PCR!!

 

[ester]

Lol re PCR

I don’t know what rules AHT are applying to add them, the millfield one got added very quickly after it was officially posted for instance. I think it would be a surprise if any of them aren’t FC1 but they might not all be this postulated vaccine resistant strain.

From a resistance point of view the membrane proteins are the most important so they might be sequencing them first but expect they might also do while genome. The actual sequencing doesn’t take long now but the analysis can take a bit longer. They have said the sequences will be added to the database but suspect they’ll have wanted to do the analysis first.

I did similar with some vaccinated pigs a while back (not flu) which was interesting but very clear once we had the sequence and we only did a small portion of genome down in the literature as the ‘good bit’.

 

[meleeka]

Flu is much more serious than strangles it’s much more infectious and causes dangerously high temperatures

Where does your information come from? Strangles also causes very high temperatures and certainly the two I knew fairly recently was a lot more poorly than the unvaccinated horse I knew many years ago that had flu.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Thanks I am a bit confused. I have today seen posts by vet business Facebook posts stating confirmed cases of equine influenza in both Middlesex (by Chiltern vets) and North Kent (by Bell Equine).

These aren’t on the list yet. When a local equine vet says confirmed equine influenza is that after swab testing? After they have DNA sequence tested?
Presumably there are strains of non FC1 equine influenza currently spreading too?

The horses on AHT list that don’t say FC1 and say ongoing, could they be a different more normal strain?

The Middlesex one is actually the one in Hertfordshire on the AHT list, Middlesex as a county has been long gone. Its confirmed as at Pinnerwood.

 

[SEL]

I think it was just a conversational comment given the conversations occurring elsewhere on social media right now about the evils of vaccination/plentybdont vaccinate against tet.

It was me that said lots of people aren't vaccinating against tetanus. Because of the flu issues the anti vaccine brigade are out in force on various FB groups. Not just them tho, there seems to be a large number of horse owners coming out of the woodwork who just don't vaccinate! Flu might be rarely life threatening but tetanus is - and horses are susceptible.

So not relevant to this thread, just a passing comment really......

 

[Tiddlypom]

Fully agree, SEL. Sadly many folk don't vaccinate against tetanus either. There are the 'can't be bothered's' and the militant antivaxxers. They are popping up everywhere during the flu outbreak, hence the references to it on this thread.

ETA The AHT list refers to 'non vaccinated and 'vaccinated' horses, that is wrt flu vaccinations only.

 

[TGM]

Apparently there isn't a case in Kent, this appeared on FB this morning:

"There are NO confirmed cases of Equine Flu in Kent. We have double checked with Bell Equine due to the confusion of an old screenshot being shared. For the latest updates please see Animal Health Trust website latest updates, which we will post on our Facebook page. RW Equine Vet - Reuben Whittaker"

There are also no reports about a Kent outbreak in the recent posts on the Bell Equine FB page.

 

[Gloi]

I'm sorry, I thought the original comment was yours but there is no evidence that people are not vaccinating against tetanus. .

There was a post on my Facebook this week where somebody's pony had died of tetanus.

 

[Ambers Echo]

But after reading this thread you must know that the decision to allow competition to continue this weekend is, at best, debatable?

The advice is not that competition is 'allowed' but that stopping competition is 'unecessary'. That decision is only debatable on social media. BS, BE, BD, NSEA and Pony Club are united in following BEF advice which is that: "the advice from our veterinary experts remains that it is not necessary to cancel other equine events".

It sure shows up the competition junkies. I would have looked at the same evidence and withdrawn from any competitions.

No it shows that people make their own minds up regardless of veterinary advice (which is fair enough) and then decide everyone who makes a different assessment of risk and thus a different choice is wrong.

 

[Goldenstar]

There was a post on my Facebook this week where somebody's pony had died of tetanus.

As a child I saw a horse dying of tetanus it was appalling .

 

[Ambers Echo]

Just as a slight aside.... Out of curiosity as to how media shapes opinion and how it prioritises 'news' I googled Rebecca Menzies Flu. Her yard feared an outbreak but was cleared when tests came back negative. The top 3 stories with pictures from The Times, Sun and Sky-sports state variants of: Flu Crisis Deepens as THREE horses present with symptoms of flu. The next 3 articles also suggest a worsening crisis with sub- headlines like 'hopes of early end to flu crisis fade as another yard shows signs of flu...". Finally a headline in local news - The Northern Echo - not picked up by any of the nationals - says 'relief as tests come back negative'. That is the only story reporting the negative result on the first google search page.

The press does love a drama.

 

[DabDab]

Ester, I have absolutely no idea what you're on about, but just wanted to say that it's fascinating

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Just as a slight aside.... Out of curiosity as to how media shapes opinion and how it prioritises 'news' I googled Rebecca Menzies Flu. Her yard feared an outbreak but was cleared when tests came back negative. The top 3 stories with pictures from The Times, Sun and Sky-sports state variants of: Flu Crisis Deepens as THREE horses present with symptoms of flu. The next 3 articles also suggest a worsening crisis with sub- headlines like 'hopes of early end to flu crisis fade as another yard shows signs of flu...". Finally a headline in local news - The Northern Echo - not picked up by any of the nationals - says 'relief as tests come back negative'. That is the only story reporting the negative result on the first google search page.

The press does love a drama.

Because it doesnt make selling papers if things go right quickly! These big tabloids will be wanting it to go on for a few more weeks so it will threaten Cheltenham and Aintree. They can concoct great stories for that and sell more papers than ones that say - Flu is under control and theres nothing to panic about.

 

[Rowreach]

Just as a slight aside.... Out of curiosity as to how media shapes opinion and how it prioritises 'news' I googled Rebecca Menzies Flu. Her yard feared an outbreak but was cleared when tests came back negative. The top 3 stories with pictures from The Times, Sun and Sky-sports state variants of: Flu Crisis Deepens as THREE horses present with symptoms of flu. The next 3 articles also suggest a worsening crisis with sub- headlines like 'hopes of early end to flu crisis fade as another yard shows signs of flu...". Finally a headline in local news - The Northern Echo - not picked up by any of the nationals - says 'relief as tests come back negative'. That is the only story reporting the negative result on the first google search page.

The press does love a drama.

I think there are enough sensible people about who can recognise a bit of media hype when they see it, but understand that taking a few simple steps in the meantime can help prevent that hype becoming reality 😃

 

[flying_high]

The Middlesex one is actually the one in Hertfordshire on the AHT list, Middlesex as a county has been long gone. Its confirmed as at Pinnerwood.

Thanks. The Chiltern vets were asked if was Hertfordshire case on their Facebook page, and replied they’d reported as Middlesex.

I was born in Middlesex hospital in Middlesex but nowhere near Pinnerwood or Hertfordshire. All very confusing. I guess Middlesex was originally a big county.

 

[flying_high]

Apparently there isn't a case in Kent, this appeared on FB this morning:

"There are NO confirmed cases of Equine Flu in Kent. We have double checked with Bell Equine due to the confusion of an old screenshot being shared. For the latest updates please see Animal Health Trust website latest updates, which we will post on our Facebook page. RW Equine Vet - Reuben Whittaker"

There are also no reports about a Kent outbreak in the recent posts on the Bell Equine FB page.

Yes

 

[Ambers Echo]

I think there are enough sensible people about who can recognise a bit of media hype when they see it, but understand that taking a few simple steps in the meantime can help prevent that hype becoming reality 😃

But again there is this assumption that the world of social media understand what needs to happen to avert a crisis more than the experts who are being asked for advice do.

I am sure people can see through the more hysterical press stories but it is not just hype but actively misleading to trumpet the 'worsening crisis' story without following it up with the 'oh actually maybe not' one. You have to follow the story very closely to know that that yard tested negative.

I find it odd that people who are choosing to follow official guidance which is informed by facts and expert opinion are being criticised because the world of social and news media have a different and much more alarmist and risk averse point of view on it. And I do suspect that the way things are being reported is part of that.

 

[Goldenstar]

I will be following my vets advice .
If people choose to take another more stringent path that’s up to them
The situation for people like Tiddleypom who is very unfortunate to very very close to the affected yard is different to for instance me in a county miles and miles away with no cases .
If people want to jump up and down on the spot and say that the professional advice is wrong and all horses should locked up in their stables which people at the extreme end are saying then that’s up to them it doesn’t bother me and it won’t make me change my view .

 

[Rowreach]

But again there is this assumption that the world of social media understand what needs to happen to avert a crisis more than the experts who are being asked for advice do.

I am sure people can see through the more hysterical press stories but it is not just hype but actively misleading to trumpet the 'worsening crisis' story without following it up with the 'oh actually maybe not' one. You have to follow the story very closely to know that that yard tested negative.

I find it odd that people who are choosing to follow official guidance which is informed by facts and expert opinion are being criticised because the world of social and news media have a different and much more alarmist and risk averse point of view on it. And I do suspect that the way things are being reported is part of that.

I remember the last F&M crisis where a few cases were reported initially, in a different area to where I was running a hunter livery yard. I rang the Masters because I assumed that hunting would be cancelled as a sensible precaution, while awaiting developments, and was told no, there has been nothing to say that the movement of animals or any events should be cancelled .....

48 hours later, complete crackdown which lasted for months. Every day on the news, images of piles of animals being incinerated.

What is a couple of days out of anyone's timetable, just to be sure that there isn't a major epidemic brewing, which could be limited if people were just .... sensible?

 

[Rowreach]

If people want to jump up and down on the spot and say that the professional advice is wrong and all horses should locked up in their stables which people at the extreme end are saying then that’s up to them it doesn’t bother me and it won’t make me change my view .

I don't think anybody here is "jumping up and down", merely suggesting that there is a middle way ...

 

[Ambers Echo]

Not on here which is very civilised but the pitchforks are out on FB. Some comments on the pages of competition venues who are carrying on are pretty extreme. Let's hope that the experts advising the industry have got it right though and their response has been proportionate and sensible. We will know soon enough one way or another....

 

[ester]

One of the somerset centres was still going to be running quoting that they were following BEF guidelines. Frankly that was a bit daft and they did at least change their minds once this was pointed out to them .
I think one of the hunts was going out but also changed their minds in the end.

The trouble is the pros/experts can’t really win. If it simmers down quickly it will have been an over reaction, if it escalated they won’t have done enough.

It’s amazing how quickly I become a much more popular friend though! 😂

 

[PapaverFollis]

Ester for President!