Hunting Ban - ten years on

[cptrayes]

Hounds are indeed relentless, but they are not indiscriminate. Though not by intent, I'll grant you, but just as your lurcher which closes with a hare, the intended quarry, whatever it may be, fails itself by it's inability to make good it's escape. The 'failure' will be because of ill health, age, or simple bad-luck. The system has previously provided us with a healthy and vibrant vulpine population. Those who are more concerned with a class structured sport, rather than animal welfare, will see the facts in a different way, but there we are, that's how it is!

Alec.

We've been through this one already.

Fox hounds are completely indiscriminate about what fox they chase. They may kill only the slowest, but they chase whatever scent they find.

 

[cptrayes]

I don't see much that is selective of the sick, weak or old in digging out a fox that has been clever enough to go to ground, either.

 

[twiggy2]

I don't see much that is selective of the sick, weak or old in digging out a fox that has been clever enough to go to ground, either.

I agree and Alec has quoted me out of context as that is what my post basically stated.

good manners have nothing to do with class Alec and nor does hunting anymore.

 

[Leo Walker]

How far do you follow your dog for and for how many minutes does its prey know that it is being chased? Do you dig the rabbit out and shoot it, or fetch a smaller dog to get it out it if it goes down its burrow? Do you train your young dog to catch rabbit by putting some young rabbits in a pen and putting the dog in with it, which is the equivalent of what they do when they go cubbing?

Burglary happens every day, do you have the same feeling about people choosing to ignore that law?

I dont work mine, he does work himself sometimes, but I'm probably not the best person to ask! But AFAIK ferrets and terriers are used in conjunction with lurchers to work rabbits. And as a young dog he was never put in a pen with baby rabbits, but he was given rabbit skins to play with, I also used a flirt pole with a rabbit skin attached for him to chase, he until recently also lure raced. Not as an attempt to train him to work, but to allow him to use his instincts as I dont work him.

 

[Lizzie66]

The evidence that fox packs are widely ignoring the law is contained in the report which was written which heavily criticised the RSPCA for prosecuting one of them.

I have personally been invited to hunt with two, sat at my own hunt ball talking to a senior member of another, and been reliably informed by a member of a fourth, and those are all in the north west.

I thought we had stopped this charade of pretending it didn't happen since the report was published, Lizzie :'(

I asked for evidence not hearsay.

In 10 years there have only been a handful of successful prosecutions. Considering there are getting on for 200 packs of fox hounds, hunting at least twice a week for the better part of 30 weeks a year, this is 120,000 days of hunting.

This does not indicate that there is wide spread flouting of the law.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Do you accept the report following the Heythrop prosecution that the law is to quote, being held in contempt by fox hunters and that they are routinely breaking it?

I can assure you that if you had been chatting to the man I was chatting to, you would have believed every word he said. He was complaining to a group of us about being sabbed. I asked him why he was being sabbed and he almost fell off his chair with astonishment at the naivety of my question before replying 'because we hunt fox of course!'. His partner was a drag hunter and on the same day she went with the drag, he went with a fox hunt precisely because they were hunting fox. On days they weren't out, he often drag hunted.

So if you suspect illegal activity why not report them yourself - a message to their local police, with a message also to the local MP expressing your concerns that your complaint / issue may not be taken seriously, or indeed acted upon. If enough people who don't agree with hunting did this then people power would win the day eventually, It just requires effort and a relentlessness that matches that of the hunters.

 

[marmalade76]

I don't see much that is selective of the sick, weak or old in digging out a fox that has been clever enough to go to ground, either.

Have to agree, not very sporting at all.

 

[cptrayes]

I asked for evidence not hearsay.

In 10 years there have only been a handful of successful prosecutions. Considering there are getting on for 200 packs of fox hounds, hunting at least twice a week for the better part of 30 weeks a year, this is 120,000 days of hunting.

This does not indicate that there is wide spread flouting of the law.

The report has evidence for its conclusions. You are the only person on this forum I know still trying to insist that fox hunting is not widespread, Lizzie. It is.

 

[cptrayes]

It just requires effort and a relentlessness that matches that of the hunters.

Not so. It would require the diversion of huge amounts of public funds from things which are more important, like catching and prosecuting paedophiles.

 

[Alec Swan]

Lizzie66, you are not the only one, and as you rightly say, from the app. 120,000 of hunting days per year, how many prosecutions have there been, since the ban? The figure of 120k days would probably transmute to well in excess of 1,000,000 people-hunting-days. The facts and the rhetoric seem strangely at odds with each other, unless of course warping the facts are what suit the arguments of some!

Alec.

 

[cptrayes]

Lizzie66, you are not the only one, and as you rightly say, from the app. 120,000 of hunting days per year, how many prosecutions have there been, since the ban? The figure of 120k days would probably transmute to well in excess of 1,000,000 people-hunting-days. The facts and the rhetoric seem strangely at odds with each other, unless of course warping the facts are what suit the arguments of some!

Alec.

Since the only people breaking the law are the ones in control of the hounds, Alec, your people days statistic is totally irrelevant.

And you cannot have it both ways, however hard you try. It costs a lot of money to bring a successful prosecution. You are particularly vociferous on other threads that the RSPCA wastes money prosecuting hunts, in which case hunts will not be prosecuted even though they are breaking the law.

A woman who is being assaulted by her partner is typically physically abused thirty seven times before she reports him. The fact that the other thirty six assaults are not reported, and happen out of public view does not mean that they did not happen.

Illegal fox hunting is very difficult to prosecute because it also happens out of easy public view. It does not mean that it is not taking place. It is.

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

Illegal fox hunting is very difficult to prosecute because it also happens out of easy public view. It does not mean that it is not taking place. It is.

Again, and as Lizzie66, could you provide 'Evidence' rather than your 'well known facts'?

Alec.

 

[cptrayes]

Again, and as Lizzie66, could you provide 'Evidence' rather than your 'well known facts'?

Alec.

The evidence is in the report published after the Heythrop investigation. That report was critical of the RSPCA. Oh, don't tell me Alec, you believe everything bad that report contains about the RSPCA , but nothing that it contains about illegal hunting ?

I also have personal evidence of being invited to hunt fox with three packs in my area, but you dismiss that time and again, which I can do nothing about but register how offensive I find it that you accuse me of lying.

 

[Nancykitt]

The evidence is in the report published after the Heythrop investigation. That report was critical of the RSPCA.

I also have personal evidence of being invited to hunt fox with three packs in my area, but you dismiss that time and again, which I can do nothing about but register how offensive I find it that you accuse me of lying.

I can't see that you have been accused of lying - if you say that you've been invited, then who are any of us to argue?
But is it irrefutable evidence that 'many, many' hunts are hunting fox illegally?
At best, it is a possible indication that three are.

And as you know who they are and you clearly object to this, then I assume that you have reported these hunts? If they really are going out and live hunting every week then it should be easy to get the evidence.

 

[cptrayes]

I can't see that you have been accused of lying - if you say that you've been invited, then who are any of us to argue?
But is it irrefutable evidence that 'many, many' hunts are hunting fox illegally?
At best, it is a possible indication that three are.

And as you know who they are and you clearly object to this, then I assume that you have reported these hunts? If they really are going out and live hunting every week then it should be easy to get the evidence.

It is not easy to get evidence of any hunt hunting illegally. It happens out of public view on private land. Why do you think it cost so much to prosecute the Heythrop - because it's not easy.

And I'll repeat again. The evidence is in the report written after that prosecution. If you don't want to accept my hearsay, don't, but if you don't accept it, then at least have the sense to realise that means you are either accusing me of lying or of being such an idiot that I don't understand what people are saying to me when they invite me to go fox hunting.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Not so. It would require the diversion of huge amounts of public funds from things which are more important, like catching and prosecuting paedophiles.

This is your opinion and it isn't fact ???? I'm not saying that catching paedophiles is less important, but there shouldn't be a sliding scale of who the police divert resources to., Breaking the law needs to be reported, and if you are aware of illegal activity then its your civil duty to report it. It would be much more productive than arguing with half of the forum fraternity on points of principle, or pretty much anyone who disagrees with you, and it would be a lot quicker too.

 

[cptrayes]

In your opinion perhaps ????

Well I think the amount it cost to prosecute the Heythrop says that it is rather more than my opinion.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

It is not easy to get evidence of any hunt hunting illegally. It happens out of public view on private land. Why do you think it cost so much to prosecute the Heythrop - because it's not easy.

And I'll repeat again. The evidence is in the report written after that prosecution. If you don't want to accept my hearsay, don't, but if you don't accept it, then at least have the sense to realise that means you are either accusing me of lying or of being such an idiot that I don't understand what people are saying to me when they invite me to go fox hunting.

I note in a previous post you say you have been invited to hunt foxes by three local hunts. I hope that you have informed the police of this. Regardless of how difficult to bring a prosecution it would be your duty to do so.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Well I think the amount it cost to prosecute the Heythrop says that it is rather more than my opinion.

I find it sad (but not surprising) that you only choose to quote parts of my post. You seem to know such a lot about all this illegal activity.. are you reporting it ?? or is it just a lot of hot air on here ??

 

[cptrayes]

This is your opinion and it isn't fact ???? I'm not saying that catching paedophiles is less important, but there shouldn't be a sliding scale of who the police divert resources to., Breaking the law needs to be reported, and if you are aware of illegal activity then its your civil duty to report it. It would be much more productive than arguing with half of the forum fraternity on points of principle, or pretty much anyone who disagrees with you, and it would be a lot quicker too.

If I was arguing with half the forum, it would be a huge thread, but I'm not, I'm arguing with three people who refuse to accept what the rest of the hunting profession know for a fact, that fox are being hunted illegally in many places. And who, in order to distract from this have chosen to try to sideline things by suggesting that it is somehow my personal responsibility to stop it. Red herring, folks, you're looking in the wrong place.

 

[cptrayes]

I find it sad (but not surprising) that you only choose to quote parts of my post. You seem to know such a lot about all this illegal activity.. are you reporting it ?? or is it just a lot of hot air on here ??

You'd like it to be, wouldn't you? Unfortunately it's not hot air, and not even about me, it's on record in that report.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

If I was arguing with half the forum, it would be a huge thread, but I'm not, I'm arguing with three people who refuse to accept what the rest of the hunting profession know for a fact, that fox are being hunted illegally in many places. And who, in order to distract from this have chosen to try to sideline things by suggesting that it is somehow my personal responsibility to stop it. Red herring, folks, you're looking in the wrong place.

CPT, I have seen many of your comments in other threads and you are rude and argumentative, and no one is allowed to challenge you. You've plenty to say about hunting and people who hunt which to my surprise, I find myself agreeing with. However, if you read my post again, and properly ! you will see that I am asking you if you follow up your convictions, and report your knowledge of illegal activity to the police? You've a lot to say on here,, do you follow it up through the proper channels, by your last response I guess that you don't ..just loads of hot air on here ! oh and evasiveness suggesting I am trying to side line the argument. Pathetic, stop ranting on here and do your civic duty instead of making excuses.

 

[cptrayes]

CPT, I have seen many of your comments in other threads and you are rude and argumentative, and no one is allowed to challenge you. You've plenty to say about hunting and people who hunt which to my surprise, I find myself agreeing with. However, if you read my post again, and properly ! you will see that I am asking you if you follow up your convictions, and report your knowledge of illegal activity to the police? You've a lot to say on here,, do you follow it up through the proper channels, by your last response I guess that you don't ..just loads of hot air on here ! oh and evasiveness suggesting I am trying to side line the argument. Pathetic, stop ranting on here and do your civic duty instead of making excuses.

Rude and argumentative? Have you read your own posts to me on this thread?

I've answered your point on my civic duty, and it is getting repetitive that you keep trying to make this into an issue about me. Please stop.

This thread is not about me. It is about the fact that illegal hunting is widespread ten years after the ban has been recorded in a report which was highly critical of the amount of money spent on the Heythrop prosecution by the RSPCA, which has successfully prosecuted a small number of cases so far.

 

[cptrayes]

no one is allowed to challenge you.

I'm rolling on the floor laughing at the idea that I ever managed to stop anyone on this forum from challenging me

 

[cptrayes]

Duplicate

 

[cptrayes]

CPT, I have seen many of your comments in other threads and you are rude and argumentative,



...........



and no one is allowed to challenge you. Pathetic, stop ranting on here and do your civic duty instead of making excuses.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Rude and argumentative? Have you read your own posts to me on this thread?

I've answered you point on my civic duty, and it is getting repetitive that you keep trying to make this into an issue about me. Please stop.

This thread is not about me. It is about the fact that illegal hunting is widespread ten years after the ban has been recorded in a report which was highly critical of the amount of money spent on the Heythrop prosecution by the RSPCA, which has successfully prosecuted a small number of cases so far.

No the thread is not about you, but it was a request to know if you actually follow up and "put your money where your mouth is" as it were, and it seems that you don't Also where is the bit about doing your civic duty ??

I may be being repetitive, but you are stoic in refusing to answer ( actually I know the answer ) so when you are aware of illegal hunting activity do you report this to the police...eeeerr that would be a no then. I will leave it there. I know the answer I was seeking... loads of hot air and opinions expressed but no action.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

You'd like it to be, wouldn't you? Unfortunately it's not hot air, and not even about me, it's on record in that report.

What the three invitations that you've had to go fox hunting ??? did you tell the police about that...oh that would be no.

 

[cptrayes]

What the three invitations that you've had to go fox hunting ??? did you tell the police about that...oh that would be no.

And your point is? Do you go and tell the police every time a friend speeds in a car they are giving you a lift home in?

The fact that I will not report my friends does not mean that illegal hunting is not happening, so I have no idea what on earth your continuing campaign against me is all about, but I'm sure everyone else is just as bored with it as I am.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

And your point is? Do you go and tell the police every time a friend speeds in a car they are giving you a lift home in?

The fact that I will not report my friends does not mean that illegal hunting is not happening, so I have no idea what on earth your continuing campaign against me is all about, but I'm sure everyone else is just as bored with it as I am.

Ahhh so they are your friends...I get it now