Hunting Ban - ten years on

[Nancykitt]

Lizzie66 - I agree with you entirely. And I'm not convinced that being a townie or lifelong country dweller has a great deal to do with it all; it looks to me as if there are country dwellers who disagree with foxhunting and people like me, born in the city and moved to a more rural area in my 40s, who support hunting wholeheartedly.

I do have some experience of fox shooting - not holding the gun myself, but I've been there when it's happened. This idea of a clean shot that brings about an instant kill and the fox knows nothing about it is all very nice, but even with the very best marksman it doesn't always happen. Foxes can move in the final split second and the bullet will not result in a clean kill at all. I've actually seen this happen on several occasions - and I've also seen attempts to shoot foxes with shotguns (not illegal but definitely not advisable unless the animal is literally right in front of you). It's not humane and it's not pretty. And the 'clean kill' rate is not as high as people would like to think. Whether people are pro-hunting or anti-hunting they really do need to recognise that shooting foxes is not the humane solution that it might seem.

As for all these packs who are allegedly hunting illegally, I wouldn't accept chat at a hunt ball as hard evidence. I've heard a bit of alcohol-fuelled bravado but I cannot accept that these packs are going out and deliberately hunting foxes every week, there are so many sabs around. Also, if it's a dead cert that these packs are breaking the law, why not name and shame?

 

[firm]

CPT I posted exactly what I meant to. Read your reply to my first post. You said "your logic escapes me" What logic? I was only stating that deer shooting I have seen is not always the same as you describe it. No more no less.

 

[cptrayes]

As for all these packs who are allegedly hunting illegally, I wouldn't accept chat at a hunt ball as hard evidence. I've heard a bit of alcohol-fuelled bravado but I cannot accept that these packs are going out and deliberately hunting foxes every week, there are so many sabs around. Also, if it's a dead cert that these packs are breaking the law, why not name and shame?

Do you accept the report following the Heythrop prosecution that the law is to quote, being held in contempt by fox hunters and that they are routinely breaking it?

I can assure you that if you had been chatting to the man I was chatting to, you would have believed every word he said. He was complaining to a group of us about being sabbed. I asked him why he was being sabbed and he almost fell off his chair with astonishment at the naivety of my question before replying 'because we hunt fox of course!'. His partner was a drag hunter and on the same day she went with the drag, he went with a fox hunt precisely because they were hunting fox. On days they weren't out, he often drag hunted.

 

[cptrayes]

CPT I posted exactly what I meant to. Read your reply to my first post. You said "your logic escapes me" What logic? I was only stating that deer shooting I have seen is not always the same as you describe it. No more no less.

Then what was your point? I had never said that everyone who shoots deer does it well.. That does not seem to me to be any reason to chase them with dogs first, and if that was not your point, then what was?

We've got another of the myths going on on this thread now, and I'm not referring to you firm. That is that fox hunting somehow stops foxes being badly shot. No farmer sees a fox after his hens and waits for the next time the hunt are around. He either shoots it himself, snares it, or gets someone else in to shoot it. Bad boys go lamping, always have and always will.

 

[Nancykitt]

If someone disagrees with something - anything, and as it happens it is illegal anyway, then why not report it? Why not 'name and shame'?

Also, just to add, I really wouldn't 'believe every word' that someone said. I'm too old, cynical and - unfortunately - mistrusting for that now.

 

[Nancykitt]

Bad boys go lamping, always have and always will.

Oh absolutely - and repeal or no repeal, shooting foxes will continue.
My point is that I speak to numerous people who believe that shooting has a clean kill rate of over 99% and is completely humane. That, I'm afraid, is nonsense.

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

I do have some experience of fox shooting - ……..

. Whether people are pro-hunting or anti-hunting they really do need to recognise that shooting foxes is not the humane solution that it might seem.

……..

Finally, common sense and drawn from experience, rather than hypothesised twaddle, the rational of which has been grasped from the air, rather than witnessed!

Alec.

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. . The Burns report considered many methods of shooting with a high powered rifle by an excellent shot was considered to be the most efficient method of ensuring the kill. Hunting with hounds was the next best option in that it either resulted in a clean kill or the fox escaped unharmed. The other advantage that hunting with hounds had was it allowed an element of natural selection in that the weak, diseased, infirm were at a greater risk of being killed whilst the healthy and fit were more likely to escape unharmed.
This is what made hunting with hounds acceptable and is why so many people who follow hounds strive to repeal the ban.
What in this argument is incorrect ? You might not like it and you personally might not wish to follow hounds however this does not make it or us wrong.

…….. .

A good post, and though touched on, the sport of night shooting foxes, and it is a sport, is in no way selective. I've yet to really understand the 'control' argument of shooting foxes, except that of course a dead fox, is just that. Night shooting is indiscriminate and for anyone to claim otherwise, would be illogical. Hunting was a sport, and the aspect of the survival of the fittest being those that will produce the next generation, was the reason why our vulpine population were previously as healthy as they were. Healthy and fit foxes better their own kind, and provide worthwhile sport. Currently, those foxes which fall before hounds, accidentally, are but shadows of the worthy quarry which we had, pre-ban.

Right, I'm now off to watch Ch 4 Racing. I suppose that that's wrong too!

Alec.

 

[ester]

Then what was your point? I had never said that everyone who shoots deer does it well.. That does not seem to me to be any reason to chase them with dogs first, and if that was not your point, then what was?

Out of interest CPT what is your opinion of using dogs to flush to guns? Am thinking of deer in wooded areas/foxes in cover you would need out in the open to get a good shot? Or is it extended chase you only have issue with?

 

[cptrayes]

Out of interest CPT what is your opinion of using dogs to flush to guns? Am thinking of deer in wooded areas/foxes in cover you would need out in the open to get a good shot? Or is it extended chase you only have issue with?

It's the chase I disagree with. Flushing to guns I have no experience of. I've just got in from a walk around the reservoir where the deer tracks where they cross a road are very clear. If anyone wanted to cull one of those all they have to do is wait for them to cross, no flushing necessary. And I would have thought that if the animal is not mobile enough to go with the herd it should be easy enough to deal with. But if someone experienced tells me that a short flush to a gun is necessary to deal with an injured, sick or old deer, then I would accept that explanation.

 

[cptrayes]

are but shadows of the worthy quarry which we had, pre-ban.

. .

And even of it were true, what on earth is there to congratulate in breeding animals selectively so that they can be chased further before they die or get away?

 

[cptrayes]

Oh absolutely - and repeal or no repeal, shooting foxes will continue The point is that I speak to numerous people who believe that shooting has a clean kill rate of over 99% and is completely humane. That, I'm afraid, is nonsense.

Yes, total nonsense.

Farmers have always shot and sometimes maimed foxes with shotguns, in areas with hunts as well as those without. They will continue to do so, whether there is a hunt or not, because if a fox is out for your hens, you don't wait until the hunt is next planning to be in your area. I do, though, have farming friends who won't keep a gun, and they call a local marksman with a rifle.

That would be my preference for all shot foxes but I'm not daft enough to think that will ever happen

I do, though, wish we could ban snares. How on earth is it legal to allow an animal to strangle itself to death with a bit of wire?

 

[ester]

I was just thinking you might be waiting for quite a while on the Quantocks (the only place I am very familiar with which has staghounds, never observed though) for one to come out into the open .

 

[cptrayes]

I was just thinking you might be waiting for quite a while on the Quantocks (the only place I am very familiar with which has staghounds, never observed though) for one to come out into the open .

They have to graze some time and most grazers are creatures of habit.

 

[ester]

Oh yes, they do here too but it does seem to be mostly in the dark. Am only pondering.

 

[cptrayes]

Oh yes, they do here too but it does seem to be mostly in the dark. Am only pondering.

I don't know anything about the Quantock deer Ester, but the herds near me leave clear tracks showing the paths that they take in their wanderings. I normally see them within 100 metres of cover, where they rapidly retreat to if they realise I'm not just part of a horse. My maximum sighting was 22 of mixed age, it was absolutely wonderful

I've done a bit of research and it seems deer can be shot at night, so I guess if that when Quantock deer graze, that's when you'd shoot them.

I would be interested to know what happens to a sick or injured deer on National Trust land, anyone know?

 

[Alec Swan]

Except under certain and carefully prescribed conditions, it is illegal to shoot deer at night. Amongst those with a practical knowledge and interest in deer, night shooting is considered to be a crime, both figurative and literal.

Just about all NT land of any suitable size is let out for the purpose of shooting (too good an income stream there, to ignore), and generally those deer which are in need of humane destruction would be despatched by the shooting tenant's employed staff, which would invariably be their employed gamekeeper.

Alec.

 

[kateandluelue]

cptrayes,

you really haven't the first idea of what you're talking about, have you?

Alec.

Bit rude....

 

[kateandluelue]

I tend to feel foxes do need population control, like with many other species- including ourselves! However i am with cptrayes in i dont like the thought of any animal being chased for its life no matter how it ends, im sure it is frightening and exhausting for any animal to be chased by a pack of dogs.

 

[cptrayes]

Except under certain and carefully prescribed conditions, it is illegal to shoot deer at night. Amongst those with a practical knowledge and interest in deer, night shooting is considered to be a crime, both figurative and literal.

Just about all NT land of any suitable size is let out for the purpose of shooting (too good an income stream there, to ignore), and generally those deer which are in need of humane destruction would be despatched by the shooting tenant's employed staff, which would invariably be their employed gamekeeper.

Alec.

Than you Alec. We were looking for information about whether they were flushed with dogs.

Is this site ncorrect? it says that it is legal to shoot deer at night for any of the reasons that we have been discussing here, conservation and to cull a sick or injured deer and to preserve an environment.

Thedeeriniative.co.uk

and it quotes all the relevant legislation for England and Wales.

 

[Alec Swan]

I've tried to cut and paste, and it won't work. If you Google 'Shooting deer at night - The Law', you will read that pursuant of the 1991 Deer Act amended 2007, that without either State Authority (licence), or for one of a couple of accepted but specific reasons, and sport isn't amongst them though the humane destruction of a sick or injured animal is, that the shooting of deer at night, is illegal.

I have shot deer, at night, and without State Authority. I'm not sure if it's considered acceptable grounds in Scotland, but during the harshest of weather, when deer are starving, they will come down from high ground, and raid root crops which are grown as winter feed for sheep, and crops can be decimated overnight. The numbers of Red Deer on high ground continue to expand beyond the numbers that the land can support, and rather than having them die of starvation, in their thousands, so when they raid the valuable winter feed stocks which are being kept for winter sheep keep, so they are shot. Nobody enjoys it, generally the carcasses are so poor as to be of little value, and the slaughter takes place, on humane grounds.

Alec.

 

[cptrayes]

Yes, quite. Exactly as I said. It is legal to shoot deer at night for all the reasons we have discussed on this thread except sport.

 

[twiggy2]

A good post, and though touched on, the sport of night shooting foxes, and it is a sport, is in no way selective. I've yet to really understand the 'control' argument of shooting foxes, except that of course a dead fox, is just that. Night shooting is indiscriminate and for anyone to claim otherwise, would be illogical. Hunting was a sport, and the aspect of the survival of the fittest being those that will produce the next generation, was the reason why our vulpine population were previously as healthy as they were. Healthy and fit foxes better their own kind, and provide worthwhile sport. Currently, those foxes which fall before hounds, accidentally, are but shadows of the worthy quarry which we had, pre-ban.

Right, I'm now off to watch Ch 4 Racing. I suppose that that's wrong too!

Alec.

I work on a small yard (3 horses and a shetland on 12 acres) at the bottom of my garden, my house is in a row of three, we currently have 3 foxes causing a problem, one is a vixen that had cubs out the back this year she is chewing the feed bowls and cr**pping in them, on the hay, taking and chewing anything left about on the yard, the others are possible her cubs-one has taken some of a neighbours chickens the other frequents my garden and carries campylobacter and one of my elderly dogs (he does not leave the garden) contracted it this year.

the end house of 6 is where the man that will shoot these three foxes comes from, one will be shot from my bedroom window when it is in the garden one night at about 10.15-10.30, the other will be shot at dawn one morning when it is tracing the edges of the field as it does every day, the other will be shot one evening as it arrives to dine on the same mans chickens.

tell me a more selective and effective way to dispatch these foxes.

I don't promote the idea of shooting fox for sport but more to control the individual fox that is causing a problem or indeed is seen to be ill and struggling.

 

[Alec Swan]

Twiggy, there are no hard and fast rules, and were I in your shoes, your 'visitors' would have been dead long ago!

Alec.

 

[twiggy2]

Twiggy, there are no hard and fast rules, and were I in your shoes, your 'visitors' would have been dead long ago!

Alec.

If it was my call they would have been too Alec

 

[marmalade76]

Funnily enough we were discussing this on Saturday (whilst mounted, obviously!), and saying that actually, to the majority of us, what the hounds are following is irrelevant to our day - they could be following fox, socks or squirrel for all the difference it makes to us. We were treated to a lovely display of the hounds flushing a bunny from covert (quickly stopped by the Whip though) and you could have thrown a blanket over them they were so tight. Just beautiful to watch. What is important to us though was to see hounds working, and working well, on top of that the riding, the social side, the horses and the country we cross is why we go.

Yep, this is how it has been for me, couldn't give a monkey's either way. Can't afford to hunt at all now anyway.

 

[Leo Walker]

I still haven't managed to get out hunting yet due to being a fat cripple who isnt physically up to it at the minute But I have a working bred whippet. I dont work him as I'm not capable, but watching him work himself is an amazing experience! For me, living in the middle of a big city and being a "towny" there is nothing makes me happier than seeing my dog "work" He has had no training, its all instinct but to see him do it is amazing! I was really hoping to get out hunting this season and one of the biggest draws for me would have been seeing hounds working

I am also struggling to see the difference between my dog working rabbits/hares and bigger dogs working foxes, and a hunt working foxes?? I appreciate lurchers taking fox isnt strictly legal but it happens every single day!

 

[twiggy2]

I still haven't managed to get out hunting yet due to being a fat cripple who isnt physically up to it at the minute But I have a working bred whippet. I dont work him as I'm not capable, but watching him work himself is an amazing experience! For me, living in the middle of a big city and being a "towny" there is nothing makes me happier than seeing my dog "work" He has had no training, its all instinct but to see him do it is amazing! I was really hoping to get out hunting this season and one of the biggest draws for me would have been seeing hounds working

I am also struggling to see the difference between my dog working rabbits/hares and bigger dogs working foxes, and a hunt working foxes?? I appreciate lurchers taking fox isnt strictly legal but it happens every single day!

for me it is the fact that a pack of hounds hunting a fox can be so relentless, indiscriminate and I suppose it is also personal experience of the fox going to ground and being flushed by terriers or dug out. Some of it is also the mess that the hunt leave behind them in the way of creating the muddiest tracks and riding for the rest of us, they just don't in my eyes put anything back. they also don't come when they say they will and do come when they are not supposed to and I realise this may not apply to every hunt out there but the 2 that currently affect me and those around me have no manners or thought for others. a lurcher either catches it or does not it is one on one and when the quarry is tired so is the dog so the fit really do survive.

 

[cptrayes]

I am also struggling to see the difference between my dog working rabbits/hares and bigger dogs working foxes, and a hunt working foxes?? I appreciate lurchers taking fox isnt strictly legal but it happens every single day!

How far do you follow your dog for and for how many minutes does its prey know that it is being chased? Do you dig the rabbit out and shoot it, or fetch a smaller dog to get it out it if it goes down its burrow? Do you train your young dog to catch rabbit by putting some young rabbits in a pen and putting the dog in with it, which is the equivalent of what they do when they go cubbing?

Burglary happens every day, do you have the same feeling about people choosing to ignore that law?

 

[Alec Swan]

for me it is the fact that a pack of hounds hunting a fox can be so relentless, indiscriminate ……...

a lurcher either catches it or does not it is one on one and when the quarry is tired so is the dog so the fit really do survive.

Hounds are indeed relentless, but they are not indiscriminate. Though not by intent, I'll grant you, but just as your lurcher which closes with a hare, the intended quarry, whatever it may be, fails itself by it's inability to make good it's escape. The 'failure' will be because of ill health, age, or simple bad-luck. The system has previously provided us with a healthy and vibrant vulpine population. Those who are more concerned with a class structured sport, rather than animal welfare, will see the facts in a different way, but there we are, that's how it is!

Alec.