Hunting Ban - ten years on

[cptrayes]

The hunts by and large are trying to follow the law as it is written.

Then why are they still 'accidentally' chasing and catching fox?

Surely if they wanted to be absolutely certain of hunting within the law, all they have to do is do what the drag packs do, lay a good scent and train the hounds in recall ?

 

[AdorableAlice]

Then why are they still 'accidentally' chasing and catching fox?

Surely if they wanted to be absolutely certain of hunting within the law, all they have to do is do what the drag packs do, lay a good scent and train the hounds in recall ?

I see no reason why a landowner would want to allow a load of joy riders to trash acres of land for no good reason.

 

[Isbister]

I see no reason why a landowner would want to allow a load of joy riders to trash acres of land for no good reason.

Good answer. CPT strikes me as rather troll-like, obsessed by drag hunting.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Good answer. CPT strikes me as rather troll-like, obsessed by drag hunting.

The problem with debates surrounding hunting is so few people are fully aware of everything that surrounds hunting. Land management, covert laying, hedging, fencing, fallen stock, PM facilities, employment across a massive spectrum etc etc.

For instance hunting in Moorland and Fell areas provide a vital service to sheep farmers, what use is a drag hunt there ! A few days spent with a hill farmer would be a revelation for many.

I find it alarming and disappointing that so many 'horse' people have no concept, understanding or respect regarding farming, land management and wildlife conservation.

 

[cptrayes]

The problem with debates surrounding hunting is so few people are fully aware of everything that surrounds hunting. Land management, covert laying, hedging, fencing, fallen stock, PM facilities, employment across a massive spectrum etc etc.

For instance hunting in Moorland and Fell areas provide a vital service to sheep farmers, what use is a drag hunt there ! A few days spent with a hill farmer would be a revelation for many.

I find it alarming and disappointing that so many 'horse' people have concept, understanding or respect regarding farming, land management and wildlife conservation.

I live slap bang in the middle of hill farming country and several of my friends are sheep farmers. I'm not sure what services you think that a fox hunt provides that a drag hunt doesn't, AA, but both the ones I hunted with have a meat run and slaughter service.

Surely you aren't another poster who is going to pretend that the countryside cannot exist without fox hunting even though there are large areas of the countryside like mine which have never had it?

 

[cptrayes]

I see no reason why a landowner would want to allow a load of joy riders to trash acres of land for no good reason.

They like seeing hunts on their land, as hunts hunting trails within the law and drag hunts and bloodhound packs show. But maybe those followers are more careful than fox hunts, because I'm sure if we 'trashed acres of land' we would not be welcome again.

I love your pejorative use of the term joy riders to describe legal hunters of all kinds. Are you suggesting that the riders following a fox hunt are somehow essential to controlling fox, and therefore not joy riders?

 

[cptrayes]

Good answer. CPT strikes me as rather troll-like, obsessed by drag hunting.

Love it, I'm an obsessed troll and the other people who keep posting are what, exactly ?

Drag hunting and legal trail hunting are the same thing. There is no more reason for one to kill foxes than the other. My obsession lies in correcting the erroneous impression you pro hunting people like to give that trail hunts somehow can't help but 'accidentally' catch fox. And if people keep insisting that it's true, I'll keep insisting that it's not until you give me a really good reason why drag packs don't kill fox while trail hunters using the same type of hounds can't stop them.

We're all here for the discussion, I'm rather enjoying seeing the creative excuses for breaking the law and for wanting it repealed.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I live slap bang in the middle of hill farming country and several of my friends are sheep farmers. I'm not sure what services you think that a fox hunt provides that a drag hunt doesn't, AA, but both the ones I hunted with have a meat run and slaughter service.

Surely you aren't another poster who is going to pretend that the countryside cannot exist without fox hunting even though there are large areas of the countryside like mine which have never had it?

There is a very distinct service that a drag hunt does not provide and living in a hill farming community I would have thought you can see that.

Please tell me why a landowner should welcome a drag hunt ? what benefit is there to the landowner ?

 

[twiggy2]

The problem with debates surrounding hunting is so few people are fully aware of everything that surrounds hunting. Land management, covert laying, hedging, fencing, fallen stock, PM facilities, employment across a massive spectrum etc etc.

For instance hunting in Moorland and Fell areas provide a vital service to sheep farmers, what use is a drag hunt there ! A few days spent with a hill farmer would be a revelation for many.

I find it alarming and disappointing that so many 'horse' people have no concept, understanding or respect regarding farming, land management and wildlife conservation.

why do you think fox hunting provides more of the above than drag hunting?

the 2 hunts near me do not provide any service other than shooting a horse and removing the body for hound meat-I have no criticism of them for this they provide a fantastic service and they are kind, caring and very professional-that said wether the hounds hunt fox or follow a sent they still need to eat

 

[Lizzie66]

Drag hunting and legal trail hunting are the same thing. There is no more reason for one to kill foxes than the other. My obsession lies in correcting the erroneous impression you pro hunting people like to give that trail hunts somehow can't help but 'accidentally' catch fox. And if people keep insisting that it's true, I'll keep insisting that it's not until you give me a really good reason why drag packs don't kill fox while trail hunters using the same type of hounds can't stop them.

We're all here for the discussion, I'm rather enjoying seeing the creative excuses for breaking the law and for wanting it repealed.

Drag hunting use hounds that are not bred to follow a fox scent but generally from what I understand an aniseed based one. Fox hounds follow a scent based on the fox (generally urine) which is what they have been bred to follow. It is therefore more likely that fox hounds will find it more difficult to distinguish the scent they are following from that of a genuine fox.

We are not breaking the law, the law allows us to follow an artificially laid scent. If accidents happen then this is obviously regrettable but it is not against the law.

No excuses, no creativity, none needed.

 

[cptrayes]

[Q uoTE=Lizzie66;12718152]Drag hunting use hounds that are not bred to follow a fox scent but generally from what I understand an aniseed based one. Fox hounds follow a scent based on the fox (generally urine) which is what they have been bred to follow. It is therefore more likely that fox hounds will find it more difficult to distinguish the scent they are following from that of a genuine fox.

We are not breaking the law, the law allows us to follow an artificially laid scent. If accidents happen then this is obviously regrettable but it is not against the law.

No excuses, no creativity, none needed.[/QUOTE]


Drag hunts use fox hounds. Drag hounds also find fox from time to time, set off in a direction where the trail has not been laid, and are called off.

If hunt fox hounds cannot stick to a fox scent trail laid artificially, then why, by now, ten years after the ban and with whole new sets of hounds, have hunts not switched to a scent that will reliably prevent them from killing fox?

And end forever any confusion whatsoever which hunts are and are not hunting within the law?

It seems to me that what is needed is not a repeal of the law, but an addition to the law to make it illegal to use a scent which is not easy to distinguish from a live fox. I understood the argument ten years ago that hunts expected a repeal and did not want the hounds to lose the skill, but there is no repeal in sight and they have now trained a whole new set of hounds. Time to live within the spirit of the law and stop making excuses for continuing to hunt fox with hounds, legally 'by accident' or otherwise.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I was hoping someone had answered my question. Why would a landowner want the hunt across when they are not providing a service.

Lots of experts discussing hunting, yet no one is able to tell me how the farmer benefits from drag hunting.

 

[bakewell]

I was hoping someone had answered my question. Why would a landowner want the hunt across when they are not providing a service.

Lots of experts discussing hunting, yet no one is able to tell me how the farmer benefits from drag hunting.

Perhaps the benefit is less tangible, more that it preserves (in a slightly modern form) a tradition. There's not much tradition left in the countryside (comparatively, through economic factors), yet many farms are passed down through families. It could be a relatively harmless way to maintain that link to the past.

(Asides from the services that the hunt provide eg taking aborted/ still born calves which is of economic benefit)

 

[Tiddlypom]

I was hoping someone had answered my question. Why would a landowner want the hunt across when they are not providing a service.

Lots of experts discussing hunting, yet no one is able to tell me how the farmer benefits from drag hunting.

I believe that the Cheshire Bloodhounds pay farmers for the privilege of crossing their land. I don't know if this is common practice or not.

http://m.cheshirebloodhounds.co.uk/Home.html

 

[cptrayes]

I was hoping someone had answered my question. Why would a landowner want the hunt across when they are not providing a service.

Lots of experts discussing hunting, yet no one is able to tell me how the farmer benefits from drag hunting.

For the Cheshire, which was the Cheshire Farmer's and the North East Cheshire, both those drags offered the farmers exactly the same fallen stock service as a fox hunt does. As I have already told you.

You would need to ask some land owners why they like to see riders on their land, but they do, as widespread legal trail hunting, drag hunting and blood hound hunting shows.

 

[AdorableAlice]

You would need to ask some land owners why they like to see a riders on their land, but they do, as widespread legal trail hunting, drag hunting and blood hound hunting shows.

If you believe that, you are best left in your own world.

 

[cptrayes]

If you believe that, you are best left in your own world.

I don't understand you Alice. I have drag hunted in at least five counties with four different hunts, and quite often land owners and their families come and stand in their yards as we all file past so that they can watch us.

How would you interpret the fact the land owners allow drag hunts on their land than that they like to see us there? After all, unlike fox hunts which not infrequently trespass if the hounds are on the scent of a fox, drag hunts only ever go where they are welcome.

I'm completely confused why you think it odd that I believe that people who invite me to ride on their land actually want me to be there. Can you explain?

 

[twiggy2]

I was hoping someone had answered my question. Why would a landowner want the hunt across when they are not providing a service.

Lots of experts discussing hunting, yet no one is able to tell me how the farmer benefits from drag hunting.

tradition is what our yard owner says but she does not know one end of a horse from the other

 

[Lizzie66]

You seem to have finally admitted that generally we are hunting within the law but that you aren't happy with the law as it stands.

Surprise, surprise neither are we !!

We want it repealing, you want it strengthening. Lets hope animal welfare prevails.

 

[cptrayes]

You seem to have finally admitted that generally we are hunting within the law but that you aren't happy with the law as it stands.

Surprise, surprise neither are we !!

We want it repealing, you want it strengthening. Lets hope animal welfare prevails.

I haven't changed my stance at all.

Some hunts are hunting within the spirit of the law.

Some hunts are pushing the boundaries of the law and don't mind if they catch fox as long as the law does not catch them.

Some hunts, more than a few I believe, are completely ignoring the ban, or deliberately laying very weak trails so that they have an excuse to catch fox.

That was my position at the beginning and it is still my position now.

 

[Lizzie66]

I haven't changed my stance at all.

Some hunts are hunting within the spirit of the law.

Some hunts are pushing the boundaries of the law and don't mind if they catch fox as long as the law does not catch them.

Some hunts, more than a few I believe, are completely ignoring the ban, or deliberately laying very weak trails so that they have an excuse to catch fox.

That was my position at the beginning and it is still my position now.

Your stance at the beginning was that most hunts were hunting illegally. You have gradually with pushing admitted that we are laying trails and are therefore by default making an attempt to hunt within the law.

You keep going on about the spirit of the law, which is a flawed concept as the spirit of this law was spite. The original aim and therefore to my mind the spirit that should be behind it was animal welfare and until it becomes this I will continue to follow it to the letter as I really dislike spite.

 

[cptrayes]

No, my stance has not changed one iota. If you read otherwise into what I wrote, it was not what I meant.

 

[a7neu]

Evolution ensures the survival of the best, it does not, in the case of the fox population, need any help from man. Do you think the fox population think that bigger, faster foxes is in some way 'good'?

That's an entirely artificial construct dreamed up by man.

I don't think that's really fair to say. Predation is an important factor of natural selection in the vast majority of the natural world. I imagine it played a role in fox ecology until wolves were extirpated from Great Britain ~500 years ago. I know in Yellowstone Park in the USA, wolves were found to be an important factor in coyote mortality and density. I would think hunting with hounds mimics the selective pressures that foxes lost due to human intervention better than any other kind of population control.

 

[cptrayes]

I don't think that's really fair to say. Predation is an important factor of natural selection in the vast majority of the natural world. I imagine it played a role in fox ecology until wolves were extirpated from Great Britain ~500 years ago. I know in Yellowstone Park in the USA, wolves were found to be an important factor in coyote mortality and density. I would think hunting with hounds mimics the selective pressures that foxes lost due to human intervention better than any other kind of population control.

Foxes are among the most adaptive mammals alive. They do not need any help from man to ensure that the breed stays strong. Farmers need to cull them when they target livestock, some urban areas need to control them to stop them raiding dustbins, but to suggest that the species needs assistance in any evolutionary sense, especially by hunting with hounds, seems rather a weak argument to me, sorry.

 

[respectedpony driver]

It is wrong to chase one animal with another animal for fun.It is sick.

 

[twiggy2]

It is wrong to chase one animal with another animal for fun.It is sick.

well that brings us back down to earth-nice and straight to the point.

what about using one animal to catch another for food?

and some posters are arguing fox hunting is in the interest of foxes (!) as a whole as they say it weeds out the weak and promotes survival of the fittest.

 

[Countryman]

Foxes are among the most adaptive mammals alive. They do not need any help from man to ensure that the breed stays strong. Farmers need to cull them when they target livestock, some urban areas need to control them to stop them raiding dustbins, but to suggest that the species needs assistance in any evolutionary sense, especially by hunting with hounds, seems rather a weak argument to me, sorry.

Do you not believe that in the artificial countryside man has created that we call the British Isles, as the managers of this land and having removed the higher predators and altered the countryside fundamentally, we have a duty to manage the fox population, both to prevent numbers from becoming unacceptably high (for foxes themselves, for other wildlife, and for farmers) and to remove the sick, the old, the wounded and the weak?

 

[Alec Swan]

Do you not believe that in the artificial countryside man has created that we call the British Isles, as the managers of this land and having removed the higher predators and altered the countryside fundamentally, we have a duty to manage the fox population, both to prevent numbers from becoming unacceptably high (for foxes themselves, for other wildlife, and for farmers) and to remove the sick, the old, the wounded and the weak?

A good post. The reason why we previously had a healthy vulpine population was because of Hunting. We protected, we nurtured and we promoted our quarry. Now, or so it seems to me, no one cares and we shoot them, regardless of 'season' or apparent need, and we refer to it as 'management', even though those who would shoot them see little but the glitter of eyes. Those who oppose Hunting, care little for the Fox.

Alec.

 

[twiggy2]

those who oppose hunting, care little for the fox.

Alec.

rubbish

 

[cptrayes]

And yet again two posters try to make out that the only way to manage the fox population is to hunt it on horseback with a pack of hounds, ignoring the fact that there are large areas of the countryside like my own with healthy fox populations in spite of the fact that the area is not hunted with hounds.

How many more times is this one going to keep coming up, Countryman and Alec?