Hunting Ban - ten years on

[Nancykitt]

You'd like it to be, wouldn't you? Unfortunately it's not hot air, and not even about me, it's on record in that report.

I'm quite interested in your perspective on this report - please could you post the extract that you consider to be 'hard evidence' that there is so much illegal foxhunting going on?

Smurf's Gran makes a fair point regarding reporting it to the Police. I think the answer was the bit about it taking up too much Police time and it being very hard to show that foxes are being hunted illegally even if you are there on the day.
(I wouldn't have thought it was that hard - if the hunt are following a trail, laid either by a runner or a horse and rider, it would be clear where they were heading? And all the hunts I've been out - post ban- with have known exactly where they were going on any particular day?)

Very interesting that you won't report these people because they are your 'friends'. Do your friends know that you are appalled with their actions?

And actually, if one or more of my 'friends' was openly breaking the law I would probably take some sort of action, particularly if I felt they were putting others at risk. Friendship/principles - it's all fascinating territory.

 

[cptrayes]

You people are laughable. You focus on me and my actions so that you don't have to acknowledge that hunts are hunting illegally and respond to the real questions.

 

[cptrayes]

No doubt you all fully agree with the report when it criticises the RSPCA, but reject the parts where it talks about illegal hunting?

There are hunting people laughing their heads of that you are hunt supporters but you don't think that there is widespread hunting of fox

 

[Smurf's Gran]

You people are laughable. You focus on me and my actions so that you don't have to acknowledge that hunts are hunting illegally and respond to the real questions.

blah blah blah why don't you just answer the question asked.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

blah blah blah why don't you just answer the question asked.

NancyKitt asked for the extract, can we see it please. BTW I am sure there is illegal hunting....just think that when people are aware of it they should report this to the police, not rant away on here and then say you wont report to the police because its actually their own friends who are doing it. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds ?

 

[cptrayes]

NancyKitt asked for the extract, can we see it please. I am sure there is illegal hunting....just think that when people are aware of it they should report this to the police, not rant away on here and then say you wont report to the police because its actually their own friends who are doing it. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds ?

I did not write the report, ask the writer for his evidence if you want it.. I do not need to ask him for his evidence.

I have personally been invited to hunt with three hunts. When I asked if they hunted fox, I was told they did, and I replied that in that case I could not go out with them. I had a conversation with someone I know well who explicitly stated that they were being sabbed because they hunt fox. And I have been informed by someone else I know well, that she had been out with her local hunt and they caught several fox that day.

I KNOW that fox are widely being hunted and I have known it for about three years. That knowledge has been confirmed by the report into the Heythrop prosecution, which do I need to remind you led to a conviction.

When you report your friends/colleagues/aquaintances for speeding, criticise me for not reporting those people for telling me they are fox hunting. When the last child has been protected from the last paedophile, maybe I will, but until then, the Police have better things to do with their time.

But shame on the selective law breakers. That way lies anarchy.

 

[Nancykitt]

I'm not really familiar with the report, that's why I've asked for the relevant bit to be pointed out to me. But if not, could you post a link so I can read the whole thing myself?

One of your earliest posts on this thread, in response to a comment by Isbister, was 'If foxes are killed with regularity I very much doubt that you are hunting within the law'. You must acknowledge that foxes are hunted within the law by a number of hunts. Using a bird of prey or flushing to guns is not illegal.

Your claim is that illegal hunting is widespread. I don't have any secure evidence of this myself. I've only ever been out with two 'live' hunts post-ban and I've seen the huntsman call off hounds (on the trail of live quarry) twice. Prosecutions are rare because it is a ridiculously difficult law, but no-one from a hunt would relish the thought of going through a court case and in those unusual cases where the RSPCA have been successful it has caused a great deal of damage to those hunts.

Your statement that there is not much point in repeal as the law is 'being held in contempt all over the country' is powerful stuff. But your evidence for it seems to amount to a report (written by a single author?) and three invitations - from your friends - to go out and hunt fox. I honestly don't see how this amounts to irrefutable evidence of the law being held in contempt all over the country.

I'm not actually saying that illegal hunting does or doesn't happen - but when people make such strong statements on a public forum, seemingly without the evidence to back it up, I can't see much wrong in questioning this.

 

[Nancykitt]

When you report your friends and colleagues for speeding, criticise me for not reporting people for telling me they are fox hunting. When the last child has been protected from the last paedophile, maybe I will, but until then, the Police have better things to do with their time.

Actually, I don't think my friends need me to report them for speeding as the police have highly efficient systems for identifying speeding motorists and dealing with them thereafter.
I have, however, reported someone for an illegal action which had the potential to have far-reaching consequences. It was something I felt strongly about and my view was that if I wasn't part of the solution I was part of the problem.
It's an unusual stance to take - not reporting an illegal act that you feel very strongly about because you feel that the police have better things to do. I do not believe it is down to any of us to prioritise how the police spend their time. If you reported it, then how it was dealt with would be up to the police themselves. If you saw someone breaking into a house would you fail to report it because it was a crime that did not involve paedophilia? Surely selective whistleblowing is not a far cry from selective law breaking?

 

[cptrayes]

And of course the sabs pretty much disappeared in the aftermath of the ban when hunts abided by the law, and are back now in force just because they fancy a good bit of a scuffle on a Saturday?

Whilst they are making some mistakes with hunts they have sabbed, they have returned because hunting fox has returned.

NK, honestly, the reason you are unaware of illegal hunting is because you don't know enough people who are hunting or who have hunts over their land. There is a large land owner in Cheshire who have told the hunt that they may cross their land only if they are in pursuit of a fox.

 

[Lizzie66]

I did not write the report, ask the writer for his evidence if you want it.. I do not need to ask him for his evidence.

I have personally been invited to hunt with three hunts. When I asked if they hunted fox, I was told they did, and I replied that in that case I could not go out with them. I had a conversation with someone I know well who explicitly stated that they were being sabbed because they hunt fox. And I have been informed by someone else I know well, that she had been out with her local hunt and they caught several fox that day.

Its not actually illegal to hunt foxes. You are allowed to use 2 hounds to flush fox to a gun or a bird of prey. So if someone says their pack hunts foxes this is not an admission that a crime is being committed.

 

[cptrayes]

If you saw someone breaking into a house would you fail to report it because it was a crime that did not involve paedophilia?

What a stupid question.

Surely selective whistleblowing is not a far cry from selective law breaking?

No it's a mile away.

 

[cptrayes]

Its not actually illegal to hunt foxes. You are allowed to use 2 hounds to flush fox to a gun or a bird of prey. So if someone says their pack hunts foxes this is not an admission that a crime is being committed.

I was there in those conversations. In all cases, they were admissions that foxes were being illegally hunted with a full pack of hounds.

You guys really are desperate for me not to be right.

 

[Nancykitt]

And of course the sabs pretty much disappeared in the aftermath of the ban when hunts abided by the law, and are back now in force just because they fancy a good bit of a scuffle on a Saturday

In a word, yes. They really do. They turned up at a local meet one boxing day about eight years ago solely for the purpose of starting a fight.

Thank you for explaining why I am unaware of illegal hunting and I'm intrigued that you're able to inform me that I 'don't know enough people who are hunting'.
I actually live in the Northwest and currently I hunt mostly in Cheshire.
But I will say that there were two occasions when I saw a huntsman call off hounds - once when I was out with the Holcombe and once when I was out with the Vale of Lune.

 

[Nancykitt]

You guys really are desperate for me not to be right.

No, really, I'm not desperate at all. I have my own view based on my own experience. You are not going to convince me and I am not going to convince you. But as you've said that one of my questions is 'stupid', I will say that your logic comes over as utterly ridiculous. You feel very, very strongly about illegal foxhunting and feel that this is why the sabs are out. You know for a fact that your friends are taking part in this illegal activity, which you feel is totally unacceptable. But you won't take action yourself because the police should be catching paedophiles. Hmmm.

 

[cptrayes]

No, really, I'm not desperate at all. I have my own view based on my own experience. You are not going to convince me and I am not going to convince you. But as you've said that one of my questions is 'stupid', I will say that your logic comes over as utterly ridiculous. You feel very, very strongly about illegal foxhunting and feel that this is why the sabs are out. You know for a fact that your friends are taking part in this illegal activity, which you feel is totally unacceptable. But you won't take action yourself because the police should be catching paedophiles. Hmmm.

You need to remember that the only people committing a crime when hounds hunt fox illegally are the people on control of the hounds. No-one who I personally know has ever committed that crime.

There's a lot of ridiculous stiff on this thread, probably the daftest being the question you asked me about reporting a burglar , but precious little of it has come from me

 

[Nancykitt]

Hang on - if no-one you personally know has ever committed that crime then why did you not mention it when explaining why you would not report your friends? And it's interesting that you imply I am ignorant of facts because I am not as well-connected as you in hunting circles, yet you don't know any of the masters/hunt staff from the three hunts you were invited out with?

As for my comment about the burglary being ridiculous, maybe to you it is - but look back at the post when you say that you might consider reporting illegal foxhunting when paedophilia has been eradicated and you might see where I am coming from.

 

[Nancykitt]

OK, I have now had a look at the much-referenced report (assuming it's the Wooler report). I've not read the thing in detail as it goes much wider than foxhunting, but my perception of it is as follows:
- there is evidence that hunts 'in many parts of the country' take the view that it is 'business as usual' when it comes to hunting (NB 'many parts of the country' is not quite synonymous with 'many, many hunts', but relatively it's not important to pursue that point)
- that the RSPCA shouldn't have used the resources they did in trying to prosecute
- that it's extremely difficult to prove that the law had been broken, due to the nature of the Act itself.

It seems to me, therefore, that the reason it is so difficult to secure a prosecution has little to do with hunting taking place in 'secret' locations and a lot more to do with the fact that it is very, very difficult to show, beyond doubt, that the law has been broken.

In spite of our differences we must therefore surely agree that it is a ridiculous piece of legislation?

However, what is to be done about it is another issue.
CPT, I'm not sure what you think the answer is here. You know exactly who is hunting illegally but you won't report them and you give several reasons for this, including your view that the police have better things to do with their time. You mentioned why you don't want to report 'your friends' but then it seems that your friends are in the field so are not guilty at all, and the people who are in control of the hounds are not your friends. Wouldn't this make it easier for you to report them if they are not your friends?
But you've clearly decided that the way to tackle it is to express your views on this forum, ridiculing those who take a different view by saying that hunt staff, and you, are laughing at us...this has very little impact on me I'm afraid.

If people won't report illegal hunting, for whatever reason, then what is to be done about it? What exactly do you suggest?

 

[cptrayes]

Nancykitt, I suggest that people stop hunting illegally.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

I did not write the report, ask the writer for his evidence if you want it.. I do not need to ask him for his evidence.

I have personally been invited to hunt with three hunts. When I asked if they hunted fox, I was told they did, and I replied that in that case I could not go out with them. I had a conversation with someone I know well who explicitly stated that they were being sabbed because they hunt fox. And I have been informed by someone else I know well, that she had been out with her local hunt and they caught several fox that day.

I KNOW that fox are widely being hunted and I have known it for about three years. That knowledge has been confirmed by the report into the Heythrop prosecution, which do I need to remind you led to a conviction.

When you report your friends/colleagues/aquaintances for speeding, criticise me for not reporting those people for telling me they are fox hunting. When the last child has been protected from the last paedophile, maybe I will, but until then, the Police have better things to do with their time.

But shame on the selective law breakers. That way lies anarchy.

You are a selective law breaker as you are complicit in turning a blind eye to your friends who break the law and you knowingly do not report this. Then you concoct a bizarre argument re paedophilia. Your comments are illogical and you contradict yourself regularly.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

No, really, I'm not desperate at all. I have my own view based on my own experience. You are not going to convince me and I am not going to convince you. But as you've said that one of my questions is 'stupid', I will say that your logic comes over as utterly ridiculous. You feel very, very strongly about illegal foxhunting and feel that this is why the sabs are out. You know for a fact that your friends are taking part in this illegal activity, which you feel is totally unacceptable. But you won't take action yourself because the police should be catching paedophiles. Hmmm.

Couldn't have said it better.....

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Nancykitt, I suggest that people stop hunting illegally.

So what do you think your role might be in this .....do nothing ??

 

[cptrayes]

You are a selective law breaker as you are complicit in turning a blind eye to your friends who break the law and you knowingly do not report this. Then you concoct a bizarre argument re paedophilia. Your comments are illogical and you contradict yourself regularly.

My friends are not the ones breaking the law. They are not Huntsmen or Masters.

Your focus on me instead of on hunts breaking the law and hunting illegally is quite bizarre.

Though I am pleased to see that everyone on this thread does now accept that the law is being broken.

 

[cptrayes]

So what do you think your role might be in this .....do nothing ??

Why should it be anything else? I am not a vigilante.

I'll repeat, your focus on me instead of on the law breakers is quite bizarre.

 

[FairyLights]

Havent read all the thread but would like to add to the discussion. I started hunting after the ban, I think there are more people hunting now than before the ban.

 

[LittleRooketRider]

for me it is the fact that a pack of hounds hunting a fox can be so relentless, indiscriminate and I suppose it is also personal experience of the fox going to ground and being flushed by terriers or dug out. Some of it is also the mess that the hunt leave behind them in the way of creating the muddiest tracks and riding for the rest of us, they just don't in my eyes put anything back. they also don't come when they say they will and do come when they are not supposed to and I realise this may not apply to every hunt out there but the 2 that currently affect me and those around me have no manners or thought for others. a lurcher either catches it or does not it is one on one and when the quarry is tired so is the dog so the fit really do survive.

most of the hunts round here do a lot...be it fallen stock, hedgelaying, repairing any fence that is broken by the hunt and they do a fir bit to support the local PC

 

[LittleRooketRider]

But shame on the selective law breakers. That way lies anarchy.

Isn't this what you are doing cptrayes, selecting one lawbreaker (that you have openly and vehemently criticised) and choosing not to report it based on it being your acqauintances and a waste of your/police .
You have contradicted yourself many atime....we should report the law breakers but you will not?? surely you can report the relevant hunts/huntmasters if you feel that strongly about it.

 

[LittleRooketRider]

And of course the sabs pretty much disappeared in the aftermath of the ban when hunts abided by the law, and are back now in force just because they fancy a good bit of a scuffle on a Saturday?

Um yes actually... they mostly focused on intimidating and attacking landowners, masters and preety much anybody involved with the hunt last saturday.

But don't worry we reported their harrassment, speeding etc the police turned up and also identified a stolen truck amongst their vehicles...so yes I would say they were just troublemakers

 

[Smurf's Gran]

Why should it be anything else? I am not a vigilante.

I'll repeat, your focus on me instead of on the law breakers is quite bizarre.

I am not asking you to be a vigilante (your description not mine) I am suggesting that, as you are well aware that illegal activity is going on, that you let your local police know so that they can choose whether to follow this up or not (depending of course on how many paedophiles they are tracking that week !!) yet you consistently refuse, and have deflected, changed the subject, etc etc, and ignored some comments. If illegal hunting is happening (and I'm sure it is) the only way to tighten up on this is to inform your local police when you suspect illegal activity, and they it is up to them whether or not they follow up. If you are not happy with illegal hunting (and your comments on here certainly indicate that) what is wrong with picking up the phone and having a conversation with your local police when you suspect something ? Surely if you can do something...no matter how small... and it is for the common good.... then you should do it. And before you reintroduce the paedophilia argument (which by the way is ridiculous) as already mentioned this would be for the police to decide the priorities.

I really don't know why you wont do this ?. Maybe you hunting friends are on here and are actually reading ?? You are happy enough to spout off on this forum on a daily basis, arguing the point with all and sundry, but you wont do a simple thing which might help the cause you are espousing. It is called personal responsibility, standing up for your beliefs, and being a responsible adult within society.

 

[cptrayes]

You are utterly peculiar SG, with your fixation on me. Could you perhaps focus on the law breaking going on by hunts, instead? Or does my behaviour really bother you so much more than law breakers? Perhaps you should report me? Feel free.

Since you continue this discussion, can you explain to me why I have never been on a drag hunt where a fox has been chased more than 100 metres, never mind caught, and yet in ten years, with a completely new set of hounds by now, some fox hunts are still unable to stop their hounds chasing and catching foxes?

Can they not get advice from the drag packs how they do it? That way, there would be no confusion about whether they are breaking the law or not.

It is clearly perfectly possibly to lay a trail and follow it without accidentally hunting a fox. Stronger scent and better hound recall training, maybe?

 

[Smurf's Gran]

I am not asking you to be a vigilante (your description not mine) I am suggesting that, as you are well aware that illegal activity is going on, that you let your local police know so that they can choose whether to follow this up or not (depending of course on how many paedophiles they are tracking that week !!) yet you consistently refuse, and have deflected, changed the subject, etc etc, and ignored some comments. If illegal hunting is happening (and I'm sure it is) the only way to tighten up on this is to inform your local police when you suspect illegal activity, and they it is up to them whether or not they follow up. If you are not happy with illegal hunting (and your comments on here certainly indicate that) what is wrong with picking up the phone and having a conversation with your local police when you suspect something ? Surely if you can do something...no matter how small... and it is for the common good.... then you should do it. And before you reintroduce the paedophilia argument (which by the way is ridiculous) as already mentioned this would be for the police to decide the priorities.

I really don't know why you wont do this ?. Maybe you hunting friends are on here and are actually reading ?? You are happy enough to spout off on this forum on a daily basis, arguing the point with all and sundry, but you wont do a simple thing which might help the cause you are espousing. It is called personal responsibility, standing up for your beliefs, and being a responsible adult within society.

The reason I focus on you is because people like you and I can bring about change, but it takes determination, and being willing to report illegal activity, or a suspicion of it. If enough people did this it would be possible to effect change, but you make every excuse under the sun as to why you cant do this. Given the amount of energy you've expended on here, you clearly do care about this, yet you do nothing.

I suppose the reason why I am continuing this is because I dislike hypocrites. Whatever belief you have is fine by me, but to have the opportunity to pass info onto the police, and then not do it (with every excuse you can think of!) is not something to be proud of.