Hunting Ban - ten years on

[cptrayes]

SG I do love your suggestion that it is me keeping this thread going and banging on about illegal hunting. Without you and NK getting hooked on saying it's my responsibility to try to stop illegal hunting, it would have died days ago

The responsibility for stopping illegal hunting lies firmly with those doing it.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

You are utterly peculiar SG, with your fixation on me. Could you perhaps focus on the law breaking going on by hunts, instead? Or does my behaviour really bother you so much more than law breakers? Perhaps you should report me? Feel free.

Since you continue this discussion, can you explain to me why I have never been on a drag hunt where a fox has been chased more than 100 metres, never mind caught, and yet in ten years, with a completely new set of hounds by now, some fox hunts are still unable to stop their hounds chasing and catching foxes?

Can they not get advice from the drag packs how they do it? That way, there would be no confusion about whether they are breaking the law or not.

It is clearly perfectly possibly to lay a trail and follow it without accidentally hunting a fox. Stronger scent and better hound recall training, maybe?

I don't think educating hunts would be effective though, they will do what they want to do, some have admitted as much on here. The effective way to manage this is for individuals to take collective responsibility, and report all suspicions to the police, which of course you don't want to do (for whatever reasons you don't want to say on here ??)

 

[Smurf's Gran]

SG I do love your suggestion that it is me keeping this thread going and banging on about illegal hunting. Without you and NK getting hooked on saying it's my responsibility to try to stop illegal hunting, it would have died days ago

The responsibility for stopping illegal hunting lies firmly with those doing it.

yes it does, but many hunts (hunting fox) don't want to, and wont unless pressure is applied. That pressure should come from the law, but we all need to do our bit, and that's the bit you don't understand.

 

[cptrayes]

SG, if you think that contacting the police about this thread was a good use of your time, that's fine by me, but will you please stop preaching to me about how I should spend mine? I do not actually have to justify myself to a complete stranger on the internet. You seem utterly fixated on me and it's getting a little tiresome. You have absolutely no idea how much time, effort, and soul I have put into supporting the upholding of the law in this country, and it is none of your business, but I doubt very much whether you are in any position to lecture me. Let it go, Louis, let it go

 

[Smurf's Gran]

SG I do love your suggestion that it is me keeping this thread going and banging on about illegal hunting. Without you and NK getting hooked on saying it's my responsibility to try to stop illegal hunting, it would have died days ago

The responsibility for stopping illegal hunting lies firmly with those doing it.

Neither of us have said that its your sole responsibility for stopping hunting (as you well know) but there is a collective responsibility which comes from being an adult in our society. In another thread weren't you suggesting that you are something (or were) in the legal field - JP was it ?? that's just great, and you wont report illegal activity to the police

 

[cptrayes]

we are not saying its your sole responsibility for stopping hunting (as you well know) just dislike hypopcrites

For someone who repeatedly calls me argumentative and rude, you take the biscuit!

It is not my responsibility AT ALL to stop hunting.



(I see you edited your post after calling me a hypocrite)

 

[Smurf's Gran]

For someone who repeatedly calls me argumentative and rude, you take the biscuit!

It is not my responsibility AT ALL to stop hunting.

No but it is your responsibility to report your suspicions of illegal activity to the police.

 

[cptrayes]

No but it is your responsibility to report your suspicions of illegal activity to the police.

How can you possibly think that we have not all understood that is your point of view? Why on earth do you keep on and on and on and on and on repeating yourself?. The question is rhetorical, please for heaven's sake don't answer it

 

[Smurf's Gran]

SG, if you think that contacting the police about this thread was a good use of your time, that's fine by me, but will you please stop preaching to me about how I should spend mine? I do not actually have to justify myself to a complete stranger on the internet. You seem utterly fixated on me and it's getting a little tiresome. You have absolutely no idea how much time, effort, and soul I have put into supporting the upholding of the law in this country, and it is none of your business, but I doubt very much whether you are in any position to lecture me. Let it go, Louis, let it go

You are right you don't have to justify yourself to me, but when you post on a forum such as this and you post strong views, then it would be naïve to expect that you wont be firmly challenged, and held to account if you contradict yourself, and are inconsistent in your views and challenge others very strongly...

 

[Smurf's Gran]

How can you possibly think that we have not all understood that is your point of view? Why on earth do you keep on and on and on and on and on repeating yourself?. The question is rhetorical, please for heaven's sake don't answer it

Because you consistently refuse to answer. Yet you post strong views and criticise others, I don't think you can remember what you've written half the time.

 

[cptrayes]

You are right you don't have to justify yourself to me, but when you post on a forum such as this and you post strong views, then it would be naïve to expect that you wont be firmly challenged, and pd to account if you contradict yourself, and are inconsistent in your views and challenge others very strongly...

And how can you possibly think, with my experience on this forum, that I post anything without expecting to be challenged? . Again, the question is rhetorical,

You really do have a bee in your bonnet about me. I hope you can get over it soon, it must be boring the forum half to death :'(

 

[cptrayes]

Because you consistently refuse to answer. Yet you post strong views and criticise others, I don't think you can remember what you've written half the time.

I have answered, you just don't like my answer. It isn't going to change no matter how often you tell me you don't like it.

 

[Smurf's Gran]

And how can you possibly think, with my experience on this forum, that I post anything without expecting to be challenged? . Again, the question is rhetorical,

You really do have a bee in your bonnet about me. I hope you can get over it soon, it must be boring the forum half to death :'(

I dislike hypocrites, and as you are some sort of Justice of the Peace (which you have alluded to before in other posts - seem to remember a massive argument between you and Dry Rot) ) I actually think that you have an increased personal responsibility to report illegal activity. I will leave it there, you are clearly not going to answer, cannot remember what you have posted, and contradict yourself regularly, and are sometimes indiscreet. As for what the forum think.. I'm sure views will be mixed as usual.

 

[cptrayes]

I dislike hypocrites, and as you are some sort of Justice of the Peace (which you have alluded to before in other posts - seem to remember a massive argument between you and Dry Rot) ) I actually think that you have an increased personal responsibility to report illegal activity. I will leave it there, you are clearly not going to answer, cannot remember what you have posted, and contradict yourself regularly, and are sometimes indiscreet. As for what the forum think.. I'm sure views will be mixed as usual.

Thank God for that!

 

[LittleRooketRider]

I have answered, you just don't like my answer. It isn't going to change no matter how often you tell me you don't like it.

No you haven't given us an answer..what we dislike is your taking of the moral high ground for disapproving of illegal hunting and criticing others for not reporting it..then saying that you do not feel it is necessary for you to report. Whatever any persons opinions on hunting are- and I'm certainly not expecting you to change yours- that is hypocrisy.

 

[Nancykitt]

No you haven't given us an answer..what we dislike is your taking of the moral high ground for disapproving of illegal hunting and criticing others for not reporting it..then saying that you do not feel it is necessary for you to report. Whatever any persons opinions on hunting are- and I'm certainly not expecting you to change yours- that is hypocrisy.

Absolutely, LRR.
As one of my line managers used to say, 'Don't bring me problems if you can't bring me solutions'.
And in this case, a realistic solution is not 'all those involved in illegal hunting should just stop hunting'. Clearly that is not going to happen. If a person does not take exception to illegal foxhunting then no doubt they will do nothing.
If a person does, however, and claims to feel strongly about it - then he/she can either take action - (as you might by reporting any illegal activity) - or do nothing and stop complaining!
Doesn't get more simple than that.

 

[cptrayes]

No you haven't given us an answer..what we dislike is your taking of the moral high ground for disapproving of illegal hunting and criticing others for not reporting it..then saying that you do not feel it is necessary for you to r. Whatever any persons opinions on hunting are- and I'm certainly not expecting you to change yours- that is hypocrisy.

Yes I have given you an answer, you just don't like it.

I have not criticised anyone for not reporting it. I have only stated that people are doing it.

I find it very interesting how much more interested you are in me than in people who are breaking the law.

I'm not sure what moral high ground you think I'm taking. I'm making a plain statement of fact that people are breaking the law. Would you object to me saying that people burgle houses?

How tall is that high horse you're up there on ?

 

[cptrayes]

Absolutely, LRR.
As one of my line managers used to say, 'Don't bring me problems if you can't bring me solutions'.
And in this case, a realistic solution is not 'all those involved in illegal hunting should just stop hunting'. Clearly that is not going to happen. If a person does not take exception to illegal foxhunting then no doubt they will do nothing.
If a person does, however, and claims to feel strongly about it - then he/she can either take action - (as you might by reporting any illegal activity) - or do nothing and stop complaining!
Doesn't get more simple than that.

I have brought you the solution even though you aren't my line manager

The people acting illegally should stop acting illegally.

I'm struggling to understand why three of you are finding that a difficult concept.

 

[Nancykitt]

I have brought you the solution even though you aren't my line manager.

The people acting illegally should stop acting illegally.

I'm struggling to understand why three of you are finding that a difficult concept.

And by the same token, thieves should stop thieving, tax dodgers should stop tax dodging, drug dealers should stop drug dealing....

Not so much a solution as an unrealistic and ideological approach.

People who see their activity as acceptable are generally not going to stop breaking the law without some sort of action from others.

 

[cptrayes]

And by the same token, thieves should stop thieving, tax dodgers should stop tax dodging, drug dealers should stop drug dealing....

Not so much a solution as an unrealistic and ideological approach.

People who see their activity as acceptable are generally not going to stop breaking the law without some sort of action from others.

NK, if you have the funds to pay a private investigator to infiltrate a hunt to get enough information to warrant a prosecution, please write me a cheque and I'll organise it.

The idealism is entirely on your side, I'm afraid, if you think in the current economic climate, and following the level of criticism of the Heythrop prosecution, that the Police or the RSPCA will be able to do anything with a report of a few conversations, unrecorded, that went

Why don't you come out with xyz on Monday/Wednesday/Thursday?
Do you hunt fox?
Yes.
Sorry, I can't.

And if you really want large amounts of public money spent on trying to obtain a prosecution, then I honestly think that you have your priorities badly skewed. I want it spent on policemen on the roads and streets, not in fields.

 

[Nancykitt]

The idealism is entirely on your side, I'm afraid, if you think in the current economic climate, and following the level of criticism of the Heythrop prosecution, that the Police or the RSPCA will be able to do anything with a report of a few conversations, unrecorded, that went

Why don't you come out with xyz on Monday?
Do you hunt fox?
Yes.
Sorry, I can't.

But in an earlier post you gave us all the impression that this conversation was irrefutable evidence of illegal foxhunting? You saw it as that but you don't think the police will see it as that?
I'm not sure you would need to furnish them with the details of how you know there is an illegal activity taking place.

You give the impression that on one hand you are very concerned that there is illegal hunting taking place, but on the other hand you're not concerned enough for the authorities to tackle this and would rather funds are directed elsewhere.

The real problem is that it is a stupid and ridiculous piece of legislation that serves no-one.

 

[LittleRooketRider]

How tall is that high horse you're up there on ?

13'2

 

[Nancykitt]

13'2

That is most definitely the funniest thing on this thread. Hilarious!
I'm a whole hand above you, LRR!

 

[LittleRooketRider]

That is most definitely the funniest thing on this thread. Hilarious!
I'm a whole hand above you, LRR!

So is my little sister...I'm used to it

 

[cptrayes]

But in an earlier post you gave us all the impression that this conversation was irrefutable evidence of illegal foxhunting? You saw it as that but you don't think the police will see it as that?
I'm not sure you would need to furnish them with the details of how you know there is an illegal activity taking place.

You give the impression that on one hand you are very concerned that there is illegal hunting taking place, but on the other hand you're not concerned enough for the authorities to tackle this and would rather funds acted elsewhere.

The real problem is that it is a stupid and ridiculous piece of legislation that serves no-one.

Ah, you support chasing and killing foxes with a pack of hounds. You don't actually want it reported at all, you just want me to shut up letting people know that it's happening.

I personally think that it's not an acceptable practice on this day and age but if it was legal I would accept that your view differs from mine. As it is illegal, then if you do it, you should stop.

The law was written in the expectation that people in a democracy abide, generally, by the wishes of the majority. It imagine that it was written in the expectation that fox hunts would initially have some problems stopping packs used to hunting fox from accidentally doing so.

It was not written, I don't think, in the expectation that ten years later, with completely new sets of hounds, some hunts would deliberately be laying such weak trails that their hounds follow fox 'accidentally' on a routine basis, nor that it would prove somehow impossible for foxhounds to be called off the wrong scent when fox hounds used for drag hunting do it all the time.

The people who have worked to break the spirit of the law are the ones who have made it ridiculous Nancykitt.

 

[Nancykitt]

Ah, you support chasing and killing foxes with a pack of hounds. You don't actually want it reported at all, you just want me to shut up letting people know that it's happening.

...
The people who have worked to break the spirit of the law are the ones who have made it ridiculous Nancykitt.

CPT, I am past caring whether you report it or not. It's just that I and several others were a little puzzled that you seemed to take such a firm stance against it and yet you were not prepared to do anything about it yourself, (ie, reporting illegal activity) for a number of reasons, all of which have become rather confusing. First of all it was because you didn't want to report your friends, then it was because you didn't know the actual lawbreakers (ie, those in control of the hounds) personally, then it was because it would be difficult to prove because it takes place in secret, then it would be because it would cost too much and the police might not accept your conversation as 'evidence' (although it's their job to gather sufficient evidence, not yours). Report it if you want, don't bother if you don't want. You can, if you like, hang on to your hope that those breaking the law will simply stop doing so, perhaps after experiencing a moment of 'enlightenment', but I very much doubt that this will ever happen.
I am pro-hunting but I hunt within the law, so any decision you take will have no impact on me personally whatsoever.

I do maintain that the Hunting Act is a ridiculous piece of legislation - this is one of the reasons it takes so much time in court to decide whether or not the law has actually been broken. Those breaking the law didn't word the thing, they didn't even want it in the first place, so blaming them for the contents of the Act is futile.

If I know illegal activity is happening and I feel strongly about it then I'll report it and I have done so in the past.
The fact that you choose not to do so in this case is neither here nor there to me.

 

[cptrayes]

CPT, I am past caring whether you report it or not. It's just that I and several others were a little puzzled that you seemed to take such a firm stance against it and yet you were not prepared to do anything about it yourself, (ie, reporting illegal activity) for a number of reasons, all of which have become rather confusing. First of all it was because you didn't want to report your friends, then it was because you didn't know the actual lawbreakers (ie, those in control of the hounds) personally, then it was because it would be difficult to prove because it takes place in secret, then it would be because it would cost too much and the police might not accept your conversation as 'evidence' (although it's their job to gather sufficient evidence, not yours). Report it if you want, don't bother if you don't want. You can, if you like, hang on to your hope that those breaking the law will simply stop doing so, perhaps after experiencing a moment of 'enlightenment', but I very much doubt that this will ever happen.
I am pro-hunting but I hunt within the law, so any decision you take will have no impact on me personally whatsoever.

I do maintain that the Hunting Act is a ridiculous piece of legislation - this is one of the reasons it takes so much time in court to decide whether or not the law has actually been broken. Those breaking the law didn't word the thing, they didn't even want it in the first place, so blaming them for the contents of the Act is futile.

If I know illegal activity is happening and I feel strongly about it then I'll report it and I have done so in the past.
The fact that you choose not to do so in this case is neither here nor there to me.

For someone who is 'past caring. and who says my actions are 'neither here nor there' to you, you've spent an awful lot of time and effort writing a very lengthy post NK.

 

[Nancykitt]

No, it only took me about 10 mins thinking and writing time actually. Waiting for an appointment so a bit of time to kill. Makes a change from reading ancient magazines.

 

[Lizzie66]

Its amazing how peoples responses change when asked questions in different ways !!

On one hand they are making it clear they are breaking the law on the other not clear enough to report to the police
On one hand we are all breaking the law if we follow foxhounds on the other only the huntsman/fieldmaster are breaking the law (and if we aren't then why should we stop??)

This particular law is badly written and ill conceived. The original intent to improve animal welfare was lost in petty spite by the labour backbenchers who were wanting to put the toffs in their place. The hunts by and large are trying to follow the law as it is written.

If you feel that strongly that the law is being broken then report it, if not then stop whinging about it.

 

[Nancykitt]

This particular law is badly written and ill conceived. The original intent to improve animal welfare was lost in petty spite by the labour backbenchers who were wanting to put the toffs in their place. The hunts by and large are trying to follow the law as it is written.

If you feel that strongly that the law is being broken then report it, if not then stop whinging about it.

Exactly.