Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Koweyka]

I have no knowledge of these activities and I suggest that if you have, that you report your suspicions to the police in that area.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Fellewell]

That isn't true, you only have to go on farming forums to see how anti-hunt many farmers are. Trespass, crops damaged and livestock killed are commonly cited grievances. One such comment on TFF:

'Banned this year on most of mine, totally fed up with there arrogant ways, cutting wire, blocking drains then not unblocking, trampling ditches in because they can't jump and don't get me going about the followers ******* should of done it years ago......'

It is true and when I say traditionally I'm referring to way before the ban in what some would term the golden age (lights touch paper) but farmers still ride to hounds and thankfully landowners still host meets. However for the reasons stated above publishing details and 'with kind permission of' are no longer advisable.

 

[Fellewell]

The poll I linked has data from August 2019 to May 2022. It's from Yougov, so the poll would have been presented as all their other polls are.

I recommend you ask the general public what their opinion on fox hunting is - I'm confident that most would describe a similar opinion to the one I have. My opinion of hunting is foxes being ripped apart - because we know that is what happened whether people saw it for themselves or not.

What people generally saw was a grainy picture of a fox which had been flushed and shot and was being dismembered by hounds. It was already dead.
I think the general public have been bombarded with so much anti-hunt rhetoric that it has become absorbed into the nations consciousness. Social media is awash with unsubstantiated, anecdotal 'evidence' of hunting's 'wrongdoings' and people are primed and ready to be fed a constant diet of anti-hunt propaganda. People who live and work in the countryside don't have the luxury of being on line all day like these media-savvy antis. When the weather turns apocalyptic and people are advised to stay indoors that just doesn't apply to people with livestock and land to manage so arguing with hunt protestors is pretty low on their list of priorities.

 

[Sandstone1]

Well I live in the countryside. Born and bred. Have horses ride and I am a reasonably sensible person. I am very anti hunting. I did go hunting years ago and decided it was not for me.
I can list the reasons I am anti hunting.
Animal welfare.
If a fox is a problem shoot it and dont chase it for miles in the name of sport.
Welfare of the hounds and horses involved.
distress caused to pets and livestock and horses.
Social issues.
Followers cause problems with parking
Hunts damage land and fencing and distress livestock
Hunts block roads
Hunts have killed peoples pets
Hunts trespass on railway lines and land they are not allowed on
Also lets not forget. IT IS NO LONGER LEGAL

 

[sakura]

What people generally saw was a grainy picture of a fox which had been flushed and shot and was being dismembered by hounds. It was already dead.
I think the general public have been bombarded with so much anti-hunt rhetoric that it has become absorbed into the nations consciousness. Social media is awash with unsubstantiated, anecdotal 'evidence' of hunting's 'wrongdoings' and people are primed and ready to be fed a constant diet of anti-hunt propaganda. People who live and work in the countryside don't have the luxury of being on line all day like these media-savvy antis. When the weather turns apocalyptic and people are advised to stay indoors that just doesn't apply to people with livestock and land to manage so arguing with hunt protestors is pretty low on their list of priorities.

I live and work in the countryside. It is not “anti hunt propaganda” to dislike the hunt and their actions. However, the attitude of “I am more country than you because I hunt” does make me dislike hunting even more.

 

[littleshetland]

What people generally saw was a grainy picture of a fox which had been flushed and shot and was being dismembered by hounds. It was already dead.
I think the general public have been bombarded with so much anti-hunt rhetoric that it has become absorbed into the nations consciousness. Social media is awash with unsubstantiated, anecdotal 'evidence' of hunting's 'wrongdoings' and people are primed and ready to be fed a constant diet of anti-hunt propaganda. People who live and work in the countryside don't have the luxury of being on line all day like these media-savvy antis. When the weather turns apocalyptic and people are advised to stay indoors that just doesn't apply to people with livestock and land to manage so arguing with hunt protestors is pretty low on their list of priorities.

Aaah yes, Ive heard this argument before. It goes something like..."We're much to busy being rural and looking after our livestock and 'protecting' and 'caring' for the countryside and all the wildlife in it to be on social media....." Well I'm sorry, but there are legions of people born and bred in the countryside who live and work in it every day who are very opposed to hunting.

 

[Fred66]

This all anecdotal tales with nothing to substantiate. If the farming community hates hunting as much as you profess then all forms of it would have died out years ago. We can only hunt through the goodwill and support of the local farmers.

 

[Tiddlypom]

We can only hunt through the goodwill and support of the local farmers.

Many farmers are tenants and have to allow the hunt on their land, like it or not, if their landlords insist on it as they do herabouts.

 

[palo1]

The media have now reported that the police never spoke to Mark Hankinson, about his alleged crime - he was convicted without even a police interview. How is that possible? I am not sure what the legal process should be but that sounds utterly bizarre - yet that is what the press are saying.

 

[palo1]

Many farmers are tenants and have to allow the hunt on their land, like it or not, if their landlords insist on it as they do herabouts.

Well if the landowner wants certain activity on his land that is his prerogative surely? I understand that agricultural tenants don't find it easy to find alternative properties to rent but the agreement to have trail hunting on the land would be in the contract. It is possible to negotiate at that point.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Where is that reported, Palo?

 

[ycbm]

Many farmers are tenants and have to allow the hunt on their land, like it or not, if their landlords insist on it as they do herabouts.

It's also often a qualified approval on economic grounds as the hunts "buy" permission by offering a cheap rate fallen stock service.

A bit like someone approving of a wind farm if offered 10% off their energy bills to allow one to be built nearby.
.

 

[ycbm]

The media have now reported that the police never spoke to Mark Hankinson, about his alleged crime - he was convicted without even a police interview. How is that possible? I am not sure what the legal process should be but that sounds utterly bizarre - yet that is what the press are saying.

It was a private prosecution by LACS, wasn't it? Many/most animal cruelty prosecutions are done the same way by the RSPCA. Our system allows for anyone to prosecute a crime if they have the funds/skills to do so.

 

[ycbm]

This all anecdotal tales with nothing to substantiate. If the farming community hates hunting as much as you profess then all forms of it would have died out years ago. We can only hunt through the goodwill and support of the local farmers.

Nobody is saying the whole farming community hates hunting. All people are saying is that it's not true that the whole farming community welcomes hunting. I doesn't.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Well if the landowner wants certain activity on his land that is his prerogative surely? I understand that agricultural tenants don't find it easy to find alternative properties to rent but the agreement to have trail hunting on the land would be in the contract. It is possible to negotiate at that point.

Of course its the landowner's perogative, but don't assume that tenant farmers actually welcomes the hunt crossing their land, especially if they are not treated with due courtesy by the hunt and followers. There has been far too much of a sense of entitlement to treat the country as a playground until, as I posted upthread, the landowner themselves revolted.

 

[palo1]

Where is that reported, Palo?

In the Telegraph newspaper here: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ithout-even-talking-says-exonerated-huntsman/. I have seen a couple of other reports but although I would not say I was a DT reader generally, this article was sent to me because of my interest in the subject matter.

 

[palo1]

It was a private prosecution by LACS, wasn't it? Many/most animal cruelty prosecutions are done the same way by the RSPCA. Our system allows for anyone to prosecute a crime if they have the funds/skills to do so.

Yes, but even so, the justice system has...well, a system and everyone in this country is entitled to legal due process which you would think would include an interview under caution or some discussion with the Police prior to actual prosecution would you not?

 

[Tiddlypom]

In the Telegraph newspaper here: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ithout-even-talking-says-exonerated-huntsman/. I have seen a couple of other reports but although I would not say I was a DT reader generally, this article was sent to me because of my interest in the subject matter.

Thanks for the link, but it's behind a paywall, and I'm beggared if I'll even sign up to a free trial with the Torygraph.

 

[Fred66]

It's also often a qualified approval on economic grounds as the hunts "buy" permission by offering a cheap rate fallen stock service.

A bit like someone approving of a wind farm if offered 10% off their energy bills to allow one to be built nearby.
.

They don’t “buy” permission, they have a symbiotic relationship whereby they do offer certain services at a reduced rate and those that partake in those services are more inclined to allow them access across their land.

 

[ycbm]

Yes, but even so, the justice system has...well, a system and everyone in this country is entitled to legal due process which you would think would include an interview under caution or some discussion with the Police prior to actual prosecution would you not?

PACE applies to all criminal prosciuttions, they have to be done to a standard. Inland Revenue and others also prosecute their own cases under PACE rules.
.

 

[sakura]

Sorry, I think I’ve lost the trail of this topic. You don’t need to be a farmer or even live in the country to be against hunting - evidently. There are plenty of us country folk who are against hunting. But it also doesn’t matter, the vast majority of the population support the ban. It won’t be overturned any time soon, if ever.

 

[ycbm]

They don’t “buy” permission, they have a symbiotic relationship whereby they do offer certain services at a reduced rate and those that partake in those services are more inclined to allow them access across their land.

Yup, just like some people have a symbiotic relationship with a wind farm. Do you know anyone who actually wants a wind farm near them who isn't earning money from it?

The inverted commas were there for a reason
.

 

[GoldenWillow]

This all anecdotal tales with nothing to substantiate. If the farming community hates hunting as much as you profess then all forms of it would have died out years ago. We can only hunt through the goodwill and support of the local farmers.

Our local large land owner withdrew his permission for the hunt to go on his land a few years ago due to their behaviour.

 

[Fred66]

There

Yup, just like some people have a symbiotic relationship with a wind farm. Do you know anyone who actually wants a wind farm near them who isn't earning money from it?

The inverted commas were there for a reason
.

Not the same as one provides an ongoing service that is frequently not monetary the other is a purely commercial decision albeit it might be that farmer also has environmental concerns that outweigh a NIMBY attitude.

 

[palo1]

Thanks for the link, but it's behind a paywall, and I'm beggared if I'll even sign up to a free trial with the Torygraph.

Well here are some snippets...I understand your reluctance to read the DT.

Mr Hankinson believes that police and the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) decided to charge him because of “political” pressure from internet trolls and animal rights activists.


“I am just flabbergasted that the police managed to ruin my life without ever even speaking to me,” the former director of the Masters of Foxhounds Association (MFHA) told The Telegraph in his first interview.


Mr Hankinson says he was never spoken to by police officers in the investigation.

 

[Miss_Millie]

This all anecdotal tales with nothing to substantiate. If the farming community hates hunting as much as you profess then all forms of it would have died out years ago. We can only hunt through the goodwill and support of the local farmers.

Another quote taken from The Farming Forum from 2019:

'What is it with the hunt. They lay a trail through a sheep farm with heavy in-lamb ewes everywhere. The hounds deviate from the trail after picking up a scent, force 200 ewes up into a corner as they run through them.
Result ,twenty ewes with premature dead lambs.
This is my neighbour, he works every hour God sends, both on and off his farm. The matter is now with his insurers, it doesn't make it o.k. though. The hunt haven't even had the decency to apologise.
But hey, they've had their day of fun haven't they !'

 

[palo1]

Another quote taken from The Farming Forum from 2019:

'What is it with the hunt. They lay a trail through a sheep farm with heavy in-lamb ewes everywhere. The hounds deviate from the trail after picking up a scent, force 200 ewes up into a corner as they run through them.
Result ,twenty ewes with premature dead lambs.
This is my neighbour, he works every hour God sends, both on and off his farm. The matter is now with his insurers, it doesn't make it o.k. though. The hunt haven't even had the decency to apologise.
But hey, they've had their day of fun haven't they !'

But as has been said upthread, if most farmers were against hunting it simply couldn't happen. The quote you have used isn't from a farmer but about a farmer though that doesn't in any way excuse bad behaviour. All sorts of people DO support trail hunting and some surprising people support all sorts of things. Did you know for example that Worthy Farm (Glastonbury site) supports the badger cull and whilst their organisation famously prevented hunt supporters from stewarding at the festival, major parts of the Glasto bandwagon are supported logistically by their neighbour who is a major hunting landowner? It isn't always as simple as black and white and hunting relies on landowners - without them, there is no hunting at all. (I am referring to legal trail hunting). I know farmers that support hunting and those that don't - here the majority are happy to see the hunt on their land or hills; probably because on the whole, hunting in this area is disciplined and polite and does not cause trouble. It is infuriating when hunts either behave badly or cannot control either their mounted follower or vehicle followers but bad behaviour is reported by several sources, not all of which are reliable btw.

 

[Miss_Millie]

But as has been said upthread, if most farmers were against hunting it simply couldn't happen. The quote you have used isn't from a farmer but about a farmer though that doesn't in any way excuse bad behaviour. All sorts of people DO support trail hunting and some surprising people support all sorts of things. Did you know for example that Worthy Farm (Glastonbury site) supports the badger cull and whilst their organisation famously prevented hunt supporters from stewarding at the festival, major parts of the Glasto bandwagon are supported logistically by their neighbour who is a major hunting landowner? It isn't always as simple as black and white and hunting relies on landowners - without them, there is no hunting at all. (I am referring to legal trail hunting). I know farmers that support hunting and those that don't - here the majority are happy to see the hunt on their land or hills; probably because on the whole, hunting in this area is disciplined and polite and does not cause trouble. It is infuriating when hunts either behave badly or cannot control either their mounted follower or vehicle followers but bad behaviour is reported by several sources, not all of which are reliable btw.

Here's another quote from the TFF if that one wasn't solid enough evidence that many farmers do not like the behaviour of some hunts:


'I had 9 cows abort after a very bad upset all day long by the local hunt around 12 year's ago. Took two weeks to get near those cow's again and even in the same field and the were dead quiet beforehand.'


I know that hunting relies on landowners, and this is EXACTLY why hunting seriously needs to clean up its act if it wants to survive. If all trail hunts were as well behaved as yours supposedly is, I would see no problem with them - they would exist like any other sport. But the evidence overwhelmingly points to the opposite. You seem to find it hard to accept that hunting has created a really bad image for itself. And before you say that anti-hunt propaganda from LACS and the like is to blame, I have never followed LACS or any anti-hunt groups, I only have to keep up with BBC news and country forums to read the various escapades of hunts each year - the fatal pet attacks, livestock killed, crops trampled.

As a horse owner who loves nothing more than cantering across the countryside, I cannot wrap my head around the arrogance of destroying someone's crops, cutting someone's fences or upsetting someone's stock, JUST so I can have a fun day out.

I think that hunting COULD survive if it MAJORLY changed its public image. But all of the comments I see from pro-hunt on here are defending their every action and seem in denial that it needs a serious overhaul. And I think this will be its final downfall - the severe lack of self awareness.

 

[palo1]

Here's another quote from the TFF if that one wasn't solid enough evidence that many farmers do not like the behaviour of some hunts:


'I had 9 cows abort after a very bad upset all day long by the local hunt around 12 year's ago. Took two weeks to get near those cow's again and even in the same field and the were dead quiet beforehand.'


I know that hunting relies on landowners, and this is EXACTLY why hunting seriously needs to clean up its act if it wants to survive. If all trail hunts were as well behaved as yours supposedly is, I would see no problem with them - they would exist like any other sport. But the evidence overwhelmingly points to the opposite. You seem to find it hard to accept that hunting has created a really bad image for itself. And before you say that anti-hunt propaganda from LACS and the like is to blame, I have never followed LACS or any anti-hunt groups, I only have to keep up with BBC news and country forums to read the various escapades of hunts each year - the fatal pet attacks, livestock killed, crops trampled.

As a horse owner who loves nothing more than cantering across the countryside, I cannot wrap my head around the arrogance of destroying someone's crops, cutting someone's fences or upsetting someone's stock, JUST so I can have a fun day out.

I think that hunting COULD survive if it MAJORLY changed its public image. But all of the comments I see from pro-hunt on here are defending their every action and seem in denial that it needs a serious overhaul. And I think this will be its final downfall - the severe lack of self awareness.

Gawd. I haven't ever said that there are not farmers who don't like hunting and don't want trail hunting on their land and there is no excuse for bad behaviour on the part of anyone accessing anyone else's land! I just pointed out that as logic would dictate, if most farmers didn't support hunting it simply wouldn't happen.

You say that my my hunt 'supposedly' behaves well. Thanks.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Gawd. I haven't ever said that there are not farmers who don't like hunting and don't want trail hunting on their land and there is no excuse for bad behaviour on the part of anyone accessing anyone else's land! I just pointed out that as logic would dictate, if most farmers didn't support hunting it simply wouldn't happen.

You say that my my hunt 'supposedly' behaves well. Thanks.

And I am pointing out that it only takes one bad experience for a farmer to ban the hunt from their land. So if hunts continue to be blasé about the little things that tick farmers off, they soon won't have much land left to ride over.

I say supposedly because I'm only going off of your word. I don't know what hunt you are with and I doubt you will share the name of your hunt (fair enough) so I can't google search if they've done anything illegal since the ban. You don't have to take it personally.