Hunting is in a spot of bother

[shortstuff99]

Lisa Jaffrey, who was the woman hit by a car at a hunt meeting a couple of weeks ago, has recovered sufficiently to have been back in action, arrested, remanded in custody and bail refused. She is alongside Mel Broughton who has form for arson and terrorism offences (previously jailed). On both sides of the animal rights/hunting debate there are some deeply unpleasant and dangerous individuals. Neither Lisa Jaffrey nor Mel Broughton, nor many of their comrades would be likely to end their activities if there was a complete ban on trail hunting...

I actually know Lisa and her daughter and I wouldn't describe her as a dangerous, violent criminal, she does have mental health issues so I would be careful about throwing things around. Her daughter also drag hunts so she knows what it is about.

 

[Burnttoast]

Another hunt attacking people’s pets, should all be banned from going out.

BREAKING: We've received reports that the Lincolnshire-based Brocklesby Hunt mauled a pet cat, Matrix, yesterday.

Following the attack by the pack of hounds, the cat is currently in a critical condition at a veterinary centre.

More to follow.

It does still astonish me that hunts are held to standards far far lower than are members of the general public when it comes to dogs in public places.

 

[Clodagh]

It does still astonish me that hunts are held to standards far far lower than are members of the general public when it comes to dogs in public places.

And that absolutely shouldn’t be the case.

 

[Clodagh]

When the beagles puppies are around 16 weeks old they are loaded into vans and driven across country for chemical and toxicology tests. Have you ever been to Camp Beagle and heard the puppies whining and barking as they are shipped off for really inhumane tests before they are killed ? The whole country should be up in arms about this and the testing stopped immediately.

That’s just awful. I hate animal testing but I do see it’s better done somewhere with regulations.
I hope the poor beggars are at least testing something important and life changing, and not make up and stuff. Although it makes no difference to the individual.

 

[palo1]

I actually know Lisa and her daughter and I wouldn't describe her as a dangerous, violent criminal, she does have mental health issues so I would be careful about throwing things around. Her daughter also drag hunts so she knows what it is about.

I don't think I have thrown anything about but reported on how LJ is viewed legally in view of some of her activities. It doesn't surprise me that she has mental health issues. The various stresses of some activities she is involved in would be difficult, possibly worse or contributing to that.

 

[palo1]

It does still astonish me that hunts are held to standards far far lower than are members of the general public when it comes to dogs in public places.

It is probably a good thing that cats are increasingly protected as pets in law though there is still a failure to give cat owners a commensurate level of responsibility for their pets activities.

 

[Burnttoast]

And that absolutely shouldn’t be the case.

And yet it is ?‍

 

[Burnttoast]

It is probably a good thing that cats are increasingly protected as pets in law though there is still a failure to give cat owners a commensurate level of responsibility for their pets activities.

I don't know what cats have to do with this. The laws and social expectations that apply to normal dog ownership just don't appear to apply to hunts. I can't be the only person who wonders why this is.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It is probably a good thing that cats are increasingly protected as pets in law though there is still a failure to give cat owners a commensurate level of responsibility for their pets activities.

*probably* ?

How very grudging of you.

You have made it clear many times, palo, that you detest pet cats. Of course pet cats should be protected in law from harm, whether from feckless hunts who cannot or will not control their hounds, or those who set their hounds on cats deliberately, or anyone else.

ETA I have posted about this a few times before, but I heard directly from a hunt subscriber about hounds being sent into rough ground to 'thin out' the feral cats.

 

[palo1]

I don't know what cats have to do with this. The laws and social expectations that apply to normal dog ownership just don't appear to apply to hunts. I can't be the only person who wonders why this is.

Working dogs, including hounds have a slightly separate legal status to pet dogs. That includes a range of 'working' situations but I agree that a pack of hounds should be(and usually are) safe with any form of pet or stock/not able to cause trouble. A huntsman should be able to control all hounds at any time and hound and huntsman training is aimed at exactly that.

 

[palo1]

*probably* ?

How very grudging of you.

You have made it clear many times, palo, that you detest pet cats. Of course pet cats should be protected in law from harm, whether from feckless hunts who cannot or will not control their hounds, or those who set their hounds on cats deliberately, or anyone else.

No, I don't detest pet cats!! I have had several much loved cats in fact BUT I don't see that it is fair to only give rights (to pet cat owners) without equal responsibilities. It is not contested that pet cats harass and kill wildlife and potentially other people's pets, make a nuisance of themselves to neighbours and road users and can be used for pest control yet cat owners do not face the same sanctions or legal responsibilities as dog owners whose dogs may also harrass and kill wildlife (or other people's pets)., make a nuisance of themselves to neighbours or other road users or be used for pest control. That simply doesn't make sense legally or socially.

 

[Millionwords]

Working dogs, including hounds have a slightly separate legal status to pet dogs. That includes a range of 'working' situations but I agree that a pack of hounds should be(and usually are) safe with any form of pet or stock/not able to cause trouble. A huntsman should be able to control all hounds at any time and hound and huntsman training is aimed at exactly that.

And yet they are regularly not controlled, and there are no consequences. Pet cats are a regular occurance, lambs, Alpacas.
If it was one hunt it would be expected, but its across the country.

 

[palo1]

*probably* ?

How very grudging of you.

You have made it clear many times, palo, that you detest pet cats. Of course pet cats should be protected in law from harm, whether from feckless hunts who cannot or will not control their hounds, or those who set their hounds on cats deliberately, or anyone else.

ETA I have posted about this a few times before, but I heard directly from a hunt subscriber about hounds being sent into rough ground to 'thin out' the feral cats.

Yes, that is appalling and I would never defend that! If you are going to be totally logical about it, then sending in terriers to thin out rats should be sanctioned too, yet that is acceptable and considered a humane form of pest control. I have no problem with that and some people (not me) might say that a pack of dogs dealing with pest cats might be ok. (I am not referring to pet cats in any way here).

 

[palo1]

And yet they are regularly not controlled, and there are no consequences. Pet cats are a regular occurance, lambs, Alpacas.
If it was one hunt it would be expected, but its across the country.

It is not regular - each and every occurence (which are all utterly wrong) is reported on massively and repeatedly until it looks as if there are many, many more incidences of loss of control. There shouldn't be any of course.

 

[skinnydipper]

No, I don't detest pet cats!! I have had several much loved cats in fact BUT I don't see that it is fair to only give rights (to pet cat owners) without equal responsibilities. It is not contested that pet cats harass and kill wildlife and potentially other people's pets, make a nuisance of themselves to neighbours and road users and can be used for pest control yet cat owners do not face the same sanctions or legal responsibilities as dog owners whose dogs may also harrass and kill wildlife (or other people's pets)., make a nuisance of themselves to neighbours or other road users or be used for pest control. That simply doesn't make sense legally or socially.

Were your cats indoor only cats?

 

[palo1]

Were your cats indoor only cats?

No, both of my cats were free to roam. They both killed song birds and small reptiles with horrible frequency. They probably crapped in my neighbours gardens, wound up their cats and dogs and came home with occasional injuries (probably from fighting). Neither was injured by vehicles but they could have been. It was the experience of having these cats over a 20 year period that convinced me that I didn't want to have another one; the only way to prevent them killing wildlife and being a nuisance to my neighbours etc was to keep them indoors which I was not comfortable with. I also had the awful experience of running over someone's pet cat on a main road. I was horrified and late at night, tried to find the cat's owner - with no luck at all. I know how devastated that owner probably was when their pet didn't come home though I asked many people locally if they knew who I might speak to. I had to leave the body of someone's loved pet on a verge on a country road and I have never forgotten that. If it had been a dog I would have reported it to the police and the owner may have been found. I am far from ignorant to the charms of a cat but if you have rights you also have to have responsibilities.

 

[paddy555]

Working dogs, including hounds have a slightly separate legal status to pet dogs. That includes a range of 'working' situations but I agree that a pack of hounds should be(and usually are) safe with any form of pet or stock/not able to cause trouble. A huntsman should be able to control all hounds at any time and hound and huntsman training is aimed at exactly that.

do you class hounds as working dogs? I can't see why they should be. Surely a working dog works, it protects something, works for the police or military, moves sheep and cattle, works as a sniffer dog. If hounds are being used for fox control ie to control vermin(as in foxes) then I can see they would be working. In fact they are simply going out for a day with pleasure riders for a jaunt in the countryside
I can't see that is any different from the average rider taking a couple of dogs out on their ride. Those certainly wouldn't be working dogs. (unless of course the rider was gathering stock)
Hunting is a leisure activity, so the animals that go along are leisure animals.

If we all agree that a huntsman should be able to control hounds at any time why can't they control them around cats?

 

[paddy555]

the quote below is taken from the Devon against hunting FB page. Does anyone know anything about it? Did hounds run onto the road and was one hurt?



Yesterday, 15.11.22, the East Devon Hunt was hunting along the busy 3052 around Hawkerland/Stoneyford/Aylesbeare on Clinton Devon Estate land. As usual they did not follow a trail but were illegally hunting foxes. Their out off control hounds ran onto the busy roads near the former Halfway Inn and caused a serious collision, a hound was hit twice. The injured dog was picked up by hunt members and the witnesses were told that the hound will be brought to the vets. One of the witnesses called all local vets later just to find out that the hound was not brought in.

 

[palo1]

do you class hounds as working dogs? I can't see why they should be. Surely a working dog works, it protects something, works for the police or military, moves sheep and cattle, works as a sniffer dog. If hounds are being used for fox control ie to control vermin(as in foxes) then I can see they would be working. In fact they are simply going out for a day with pleasure riders for a jaunt in the countryside
I can't see that is any different from the average rider taking a couple of dogs out on their ride. Those certainly wouldn't be working dogs. (unless of course the rider was gathering stock)
Hunting is a leisure activity, so the animals that go along are leisure animals.

If we all agree that a huntsman should be able to control hounds at any time why can't they control them around cats?

I entirely understand your point about hounds being working dogs, but then greyhounds and other sporting dogs, including some gun dogs and possibly pedigree stud dogs share the same legal status; they are all essentially recreational animals but with a specific working or 'sporting' purpose. That is just the law and it would probably be extremely difficult, not to mention a waste of parliamentary time to change that. Hounds are classified as working dogs and their keepers are bound to comply with the relevant law. Sheepdogs share the same status which I guess is the reason that it is generally tolerated for sheepdogs to be loose often on the road for example (ie out of control). At least here it seems that way, not to mention that the temperament of some sheep dogs is not really public friendly...some would, if they were 'pet' dogs be considered dangerous or potentially out of control.

 

[Peglo]

so it’s not ok for cats to kill wildlife and follow natural instincts but totally fine for humans to shoot and kill whatever they like for sport or because they are “pests”.

seems a bit double standards to me. But I love cats. And don’t find shooting animals a pleasant pass time.

 

[Millionwords]

It is always amusing to read the arguments in favour of the status quo in this thread, the mental gymnastics are astounding.

 

[paddy555]

I entirely understand your point about hounds being working dogs, but then greyhounds and other sporting dogs, including some gun dogs and possibly pedigree stud dogs share the same legal status; they are all essentially recreational animals but with a specific working or 'sporting' purpose. That is just the law and it would probably be extremely difficult, not to mention a waste of parliamentary time to change that. Hounds are classified as working dogs and their keepers are bound to comply with the relevant law. Sheepdogs share the same status which I guess is the reason that it is generally tolerated for sheepdogs to be loose often on the road for example (ie out of control). At least here it seems that way, not to mention that the temperament of some sheep dogs is not really public friendly...some would, if they were 'pet' dogs be considered dangerous or potentially out of control.

I see the point you are making about working dogs but I don't understand why you continually then deflect the issue.
To explain what I mean you say hounds are classed as working dogs. They do seem to cause a problem as a fair number appear to be out of control on roads, gardens or chasing other animals but that gets no mention in your reply.

You then give 3.5 lines of your views about sheep dogs which are not the issue at all.

If you are carrying the flag for hunting with hounds then put their case sheep dogs don't come into it.

 

[Burnttoast]

do you class hounds as working dogs? I can't see why they should be. Surely a working dog works, it protects something, works for the police or military, moves sheep and cattle, works as a sniffer dog. If hounds are being used for fox control ie to control vermin(as in foxes) then I can see they would be working. In fact they are simply going out for a day with pleasure riders for a jaunt in the countryside
I can't see that is any different from the average rider taking a couple of dogs out on their ride. Those certainly wouldn't be working dogs. (unless of course the rider was gathering stock)
Hunting is a leisure activity, so the animals that go along are leisure animals.

If we all agree that a huntsman should be able to control hounds at any time why can't they control them around cats?

This ^ Hounds may have a certain status under the law but it's outdated. It's probably true that it would be a waste of parliamentary time to change it but nevertheless in no strict sense are they working dogs. There are also certain expectations of dog owners - it's usually thought polite to pick up after your dog if you possibly can wherever you are, for example (regardless of the law). I'm sure it will be argued that picking up after hounds would be impossible but there is a very easy solution to that which is obvious I would have thought.

 

[Clodagh]

I loathe cats and think they are a scourge. But I wouldn’t wish them killed by dogs. I also wish they didn’t kill my bantams.
It is indeed odd that terriers ratting is fine, when it is set up exactly the same way as historic cubbing was.
Either way I agree hounds should never riot onto any pets or livestock and the offending hounds are usually destroyed.

As for the hound not being taken to the vet, back in my hunting days vets hunted a lot and would have visited the kennels for treatment needed. Also would you admit to the antis that you treated foxhounds? Imagine the hate mail and social media hysteria that would cause. Sabs hunt in packs as much as hounds do.

 

[palo1]

I see the point you are making about working dogs but I don't understand why you continually then deflect the issue.
To explain what I mean you say hounds are classed as working dogs. They do seem to cause a problem as a fair number appear to be out of control on roads, gardens or chasing other animals but that gets no mention in your reply.

You then give 3.5 lines of your views about sheep dogs which are not the issue at all.

If you are carrying the flag for hunting with hounds then put their case sheep dogs don't come into it.

I understand you. The reason I waffled on about sheep dogs is that because locally sheepdogs definitely cause MORE problems than hounds - they roam, fight, lie on the road, chase cars, cyclists, riders and motorbikes, frighten the postman etc but because they have that status as working dogs, they are treated differently. Not all local sheepdogs are rogues here lol but enough of them in a wide enough area for it to be a conversational issue at parish council meetings, where hounds out of control just isn't. If I asked a local policeman which he had more reports on, it would definitely be the sheepdog working crew rather than the hounds. It wasn't meant as deflection but just as an attempt to be logical about 'problem' working dogs. It just always feels to me that there is little logic applied to the issue of hounds here. Anyway, if PETA get their way, sheepdogs (we have 3 of the devils including a divine pup btw) will be on the way out too.

 

[YorksG]

Vets are obliged to not disclose information about their customers. Antis may believe that they have special rights to knowledge about others, but they don't.

 

[palo1]

I see the point you are making about working dogs but I don't understand why you continually then deflect the issue.
To explain what I mean you say hounds are classed as working dogs. They do seem to cause a problem as a fair number appear to be out of control on roads, gardens or chasing other animals but that gets no mention in your reply.

You then give 3.5 lines of your views about sheep dogs which are not the issue at all.

If you are carrying the flag for hunting with hounds then put their case sheep dogs don't come into it.

Pedantic; I gave my views on sheep dogs in 1.5 lines not 3.5!!

 

[skinnydipper]

Pedantic; I gave my views on sheep dogs in 1.5 lines not 3.5!!

Screen size. Big screen fewer lines. Small screen more lines.

 

[paddy555]

Screen size. Big screen fewer lines. Small screen more lines.

thank you. I have a smaller laptop.

 

[Millionwords]

Different hunts, but both recent.
You can see the ragged fox in frame with the hound, and a close up of the fox.
Reported to sabs by a member of the public as being chased and killed seconds before they got there.