Hunting is in a spot of bother

[FestiveG]

Dogs of many occupations do not retire well. Some police dogs do not settle well as pets.
Some sheep dogs are euthanized when they can no longer work. I would hope that anyone who feels that hounds should all be given retirement homes, live a true vegan lifestyle. Livestock farmers care about their animals, but they do not tend to keep them in retirement.

 

[lizziebell]

'Clean boot hunting' is following the natural scent of human runners - this is usually done with bloodhounds because they are renowned for their amazing sense of smell. I'm not sure that foxhounds would have the scenting ability to be able to follow such runners without additional scent being used.

Dogs aren’t born to naturally follow any particular scent. You would train the next generation of foxhounds to follow whatever scent you wish them to follow. I’ve mentioned before that I do Scentwork, and have had a go at mantrailing (so, natural scent of a human runner), and I do this with sighthounds. There are many many breeds of dog successfully doing both sports - I’ve even seen french bulldogs and chihuahuas at a high level. If this is yet another reason given that trail hunting “must” follow fox scent - it’s complete rubbish. (I’m aware you were just posing the question - I was just stating that it’s yet another excuse that trail hunters like to spin for the reason they follow fox scent)

 

[Tiddlypom]

Then last week I watched as a hound was hit by a car, what do you think the hunt did ? Not a thing …. Didn’t even call for help for the hound or the person that hit her.

Was that the injured and dazed hound left standing on the main road that I pictured upthread? Did you find out what happened to her? Hopefully somebody took charge of her and got her checked out by a vet PDQ, she could have sustained internal injuries.

Though if the sabs hadn't been making false horn calls, maybe she would not have ended up on the road.

There are a variety of different flavour of antis after that pack.

 

[TGM]

Dogs aren’t born to naturally follow any particular scent.

I think you misunderstood my post, it is was more about scenting ability rather than the type of scent followed. Bloodhounds are recognised to have more nasal scent receptors than other breeds of dog, so naturally find it easy to follow a subtle scent such as the natural scent of a human runner. Other breeds of hound may not be so well equipped in the nasal scent receptor department, so will find such a task harder. Additionally the long ears of the bloodhound are said to also help scent detection as they help to funnel scent particles towards the nose. That is not to say that other breeds can't follow a runner scent at all, but the bloodhounds are best equipped to do so and particularly show reliability in the hunting field where there may be other humans such as hikers and joggers crossing the quarry's path. After all, there must have been a compelling reason why the pioneers of modern 'clean boot hunting' in the 1970s chose to create bloodhound packs, rather than use the readily available foxhounds.

That said, it is possible for foxhounds to learn to follow stinkier trails, such as the artificial scents used by drag packs, so that is definitely an option.

 

[lizziebell]

I think you misunderstood my post, it is was more about scenting ability rather than the type of scent followed. Bloodhounds are recognised to have more nasal scent receptors than other breeds of dog, so naturally find it easy to follow a subtle scent such as the natural scent of a human runner. Other breeds of hound may not be so well equipped in the nasal scent receptor department, so will find such a task harder. Additionally the long ears of the bloodhound are said to also help scent detection as they help to funnel scent particles towards the nose. That is not to say that other breeds can't follow a runner scent at all, but the bloodhounds are best equipped to do so and particularly show reliability in the hunting field where there may be other humans such as hikers and joggers crossing the quarry's path. After all, there must have been a compelling reason why the pioneers of modern 'clean boot hunting' in the 1970s chose to create bloodhound packs, rather than use the readily available foxhounds.

That said, it is possible for foxhounds to learn to follow stinkier trails, such as the artificial scents used by drag packs, so that is definitely an option.

I did understand your point, and I’m in complete agreement that Bloodhounds are always going to be the preferred breed as their scenting ability is far superior, but I don’t see why that should stop foxhounds being repurposed to follow human or non-animal based artificial scent if the benefit is to keep the bloodlines of foxhounds going.

 

[Koweyka]

Meanwhile the madness continues hereabouts .

On the one side, a 'trail' hunting pack determined to see it to the end of the season with a huntsman with a very recent conviction for illegal fox hunting.

On the other, a bunch of antis ranging from non interfering monitors (I've got no problem with them) to full on disruptive sabs (I've got lots of problems with them).

In the middle, the public who get dragged in to the confrontations, the police, and the poor bleddy hounds.

Here's one dazed and injured hound standing on a NSL section of the A534, a fast narrow and busy major East-West route with a lot of heavy goods traffic. Hound had just been knocked over by a car, along with another (fate unknown). Sabs had been deliberately interfering with the control of hounds by blowing a hunting horn. I know that the antis read this thread, FGS do not do this you are complicit in getting hounds onto the main road into the traffic. I know that this hunt is being highly irresponsible too, but direct actions like this from sabs are further putting hounds and the public at risk.

I know this section of road well - it is not at all suitable for horses or hounds to be on except for a strictly controlled crossing over.

These pics are from the antis, I can confirm that the pin point location I show on google maps is correct.

'Allegedly' ie the antis say that the hunt was then given a dispersal notice order by the rural police team and ordered to pack up as hounds were out of control and public safety was being endangered, though whether that is true or not I don't know.

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Where is the evidence an anti was blowing a hunting horn to call them on to the road ?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Where is the evidence an anti was blowing a hunting horn to call them on to the road ?

No evidence that the sabs deliberately called hounds onto the road, but the sabs own report posted on FB of the same day states:-

Just back at home after sabbing Cheshire hounds hunt.
2our sabs run restlessly after them in fields for 2hours, and they started to get very frustrated of our presence.
They showed more anger after our senior sab used horn sounds to call successfully hounds out of coverts in different occasions.

If sabs interfere with the huntsman's control of hounds, then confused hounds end up in places they shouldn't be. This puts the hounds and the public at risk.

 

[Koweyka]

No evidence that the sabs deliberately called hounds onto the road, but the sabs own report posted on FB of the same day states:-

Just back at home after sabbing Cheshire hounds hunt.
2our sabs run restlessly after them in fields for 2hours, and they started to get very frustrated of our presence.
They showed more anger after our senior sab used horn sounds to call successfully hounds out of coverts in different occasions.

If sabs interfere with the huntsman's control of hounds, then confused hounds end up in places they shouldn't be. This puts the hounds and the public at risk.

I wouldn’t believe anything that crack pot group says tbh well known in sabbing circles that they are complete fantasists.

 

[Landcruiser]

No evidence that the sabs deliberately called hounds onto the road, but the sabs own report posted on FB of the same day states:-

Just back at home after sabbing Cheshire hounds hunt.
2our sabs run restlessly after them in fields for 2hours, and they started to get very frustrated of our presence.
They showed more anger after our senior sab used horn sounds to call successfully hounds out of coverts in different occasions.

If sabs interfere with the huntsman's control of hounds, then confused hounds end up in places they shouldn't be. This puts the hounds and the public at risk.

And if they don't interfere, the hounds follow the fox trail which again could go anywhere, including places they shouldn't be, including over busy roads or even into people's back gardens.

 

[Tiddlypom]

And if they don't interfere, the hounds follow the fox trail which again could go anywhere, including places they shouldn't be, including over busy roads or even into people's back gardens.

Well yes, I don't disagree with that either, I am no supporter at all of the illegal hunts, of which there are plenty. That hunt has hunted right over that same main road many a time in the past.

I'm all in favour of the very close monitoring of hunts, but not in direct interference. Get the video evidence in the can of wrong doing and present it to the police. Let the hunts hang themselves.

 

[Sandstone1]

No evidence that the sabs deliberately called hounds onto the road, but the sabs own report posted on FB of the same day states:-

Just back at home after sabbing Cheshire hounds hunt.
2our sabs run restlessly after them in fields for 2hours, and they started to get very frustrated of our presence.
They showed more anger after our senior sab used horn sounds to call successfully hounds out of coverts in different occasions.

If sabs interfere with the huntsman's control of hounds, then confused hounds end up in places they shouldn't be. This puts the hounds and the public at risk.

But if sabs do not stop hounds from chasing a fox then it will be killed? Hunters will hunt hounds on to a fox and wont stop them ( Even if they can) My local hunt does actually hunt along main roads. Not sure why they would set a trail along a main road? OH wait......
If sabs do not interfere many more foxes would be killed.

 

[Sandstone1]

Dogs of many occupations do not retire well. Some police dogs do not settle well as pets.
Some sheep dogs are euthanized when they can no longer work. I would hope that anyone who feels that hounds should all be given retirement homes, live a true vegan lifestyle. Livestock farmers care about their animals, but they do not tend to keep them in retirement.

I have not suggested that foxhounds are all given retirement homes, the change in living conditions and lifestyle would make rehoming them to pet homes very challenging. Thats not to say its impossible but it would be difficult.
The sensible thing to do would be stop breeding or at least slow it down a lot.
However, hunts in their wisdom will continue breeding litters and in the fullness of time all hunting with hounds will be banned and who will be making a big deal of whole packs being put down? I wonder.... Come back to this thread in a couple of years and see whos right.

 

[lizziebell]

I have not suggested that foxhounds are all given retirement homes, the change in living conditions and lifestyle would make rehoming them to pet homes very challenging. Thats not to say its impossible but it would be difficult.
The sensible thing to do would be stop breeding or at least slow it down a lot.
However, hunts in their wisdom will continue breeding litters and in the fullness of time all hunting with hounds will be banned and who will be making a big deal of whole packs being put down? I wonder.... Come back to this thread in a couple of years and see whos right.

And hunts who genuinely have the hounds best interests in mind would be looking at preserving the foxhound breed for the future. That is by reducing litters, and training the next generation of hounds to follow alternative scents and planning that now. When the breed ends up a vulnerable native breed it will be by their doing. Hunts need to be more proactive at future planning and get their heads out of the sand

 

[limestonelil]

And hunts who genuinely have the hounds best interests in mind would be looking at preserving the foxhound breed for the future. That is by reducing litters, and training the next generation of hounds to follow alternative scents and planning that now. When the breed ends up a vulnerable native breed it will be by their doing. Hunts need to be more proactive at future planning and get their heads out of the sand

Made me wonder about Otter Hound breed status so had a look on Google. Anybody know an otter hound IRL?

 

[Tiddlypom]

I wouldn’t believe anything that crack pot group says tbh well known in sabbing circles that they are complete fantasists.

Oh ok, I didn't know that, that crack pot group are the self styled Cheshire Hunt Saboteurs.

There seem to be several other groups of antis with Cheshire in their title and a variety of others who visit the local packs on occasion. It seems to be a well anti'd county.

I will make it clear that I have never had any direct dealings with any antis or anti groups, I just have a look and see what's cooking on Facebook from both the pros and the antis. I don't post comments either way. I'm a local who gets caught in the middle.

 

[GSD Woman]

Limestonelil, I have actually seen Otterhounds IRL. Eons ago I had a dog entered in an obedience trial at a big show where the Otterhounds and German Pinschers were having their national specialties. I believe that is the only place I've ever seen either breed.

 

[Sandstone1]

Oh ok, I didn't know that, that crack pot group are the self styled Cheshire Hunt Saboteurs.

There seem to be several other groups of antis with Cheshire in their title and a variety of others who visit the local packs on occasion. It seems to be a well anti'd county.

I will make it clear that I have never had any direct dealings with any antis or anti groups, I just have a look and see what's cooking on Facebook from both the pros and the antis. I don't post comments either way. I'm a local who gets caught in the middle.

I may be wrong but I think she meant the hunt are crack pots not the sabs?

 

[FestiveG]

I may be wrong but I think she meant the hunt are crack pots not the sabs?

The report was from the sabs own page, where they claimed to have disrupted the huntsmans control of the hounds. Her comment was about that group of sabs.

 

[Sandstone1]

The report was from the sabs own page, where they claimed to have disrupted the huntsmans control of the hounds. Her comment was about that group of sabs.

Ok, have it your way. Makes little difference to me. Think you are wrong though

 

[FestiveG]

Ok, have it your way. Makes little difference to me.

It isn't about "having it my way" it's about accurate reporting and accurate interpretation. If a follower of sab groups is prepared to say that one group is known to be full of fantasist, then they are more likely to be taken notice of than someone who just chants the mantra hunters bad, sabs good.

 

[littleshetland]

Made me wonder about Otter Hound breed status so had a look on Google. Anybody know an otter hound IRL?

Some neighbours of mine acquired an Otterhound. I think she was about 6 months old when they got her. She was such a beautiful looking dog, but very, very smelly, completely untrainable (for my neighbours anyway. They usually kept Golden retrievers and Labs) and totally trashed their house in a very benign and friendly fashion....She was very sweet natured, but living in a house didn't suit her at all. They moved her on after a few months.

 

[suestowford]

I saw a whole pack of Otterhounds once, at a local show where they had a parade of various hounds. There must have been a dozen of them and I could smell them from a long way off. You'd have to be nose-blind to live with even one!

 

[paddy555]

I saw otterhounds at Devon county. Totally adorable to look at and stroke. Not sure about the rest. Didn't get that close and personal and the tent was well ventilated. They hunted mink.
The mink hounds were the only ones who were invited onto our land. Amazing beasts.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Ok, have it your way. Makes little difference to me. Think you are wrong though

The Cheshire Hunt Sabs boasted on their own Facebook page that they were calling hounds out of covert with horn calls. And have done so again at a more recent meet.

You need to get your head out of the sand. It is not as simple as all sabs/antis are good, all people who hunt are bad.

 

[Indy]

Ok, have it your way. Makes little difference to me. Think you are wrong though

I took her to mean that she meant that particular sab group were nutters too. I suppose you get good and bad within the sabbing fraternity.

 

[FestiveG]

Ok, have it your way. Makes little difference to me. Think you are wrong though

You are at liberty to think what you please, however erroneous your belief. You can believe that the earth is flat, but that will not make it so.

 

[Sandstone1]

The Cheshire Hunt Sabs boasted on their own Facebook page that they were calling hounds out of covert with horn calls. And have done so again at a more recent meet.

You need to get your head out of the sand. It is not as simple as all sabs/antis are good, all people who hunt are bad.

Ok, lets get this straight here. My head is not in the sand at all. I fully understand that not all sabs are good. I have no doubt that some are less than perfect and at times do questionable things. No one is perfect. However, in my opinion the people that need to get their heads out of the sand are the pro hunters. They need to except that a lot of trail hunting is just a ploy for real full blown fox hunting. Not all Im sure there is the odd pack who sticks to the law but on the whole most trail hunts hunt fox given the chance. You can all argue until the cows come home on that one I am afraid.

 

[FestiveG]

Ok, lets get this straight here. My head is not in the sand at all. I fully understand that not all sabs are good. I have no doubt that some are less than perfect and at times do questionable things. No one is perfect. However, in my opinion the people that need to get their heads out of the sand are the pro hunters. They need to except that a lot of trail hunting is just a ploy for real full blown fox hunting. Not all Im sure there is the odd pack who sticks to the law but on the whole most trail hunts hunt fox given the chance. You can all argue until the cows come home on that one I am afraid.

That is your opinion, not proven fact, just keeping on with the same assertion does still not make it fact. Given your belief about a previous post, I would question your ability to critically analyse relevant information

 

[Sandstone1]

You are at liberty to think what you please, however erroneous your belief. You can believe that the earth is flat, but that will not make it so.

Thank you, I am glad you have given me permission to think what I like. Likewise you can think hunting foxes is a ok thing to do. However most normal humans do not.

 

[FestiveG]

Thank you, I am glad you have given me permission to think what I like. Likewise you can think hunting foxes is a ok thing to do. However most normal humans do not.

Do please note that my comment was in response to your error while interpreting another (anti)posters comment, nothing to do with your beliefs about hunting