Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Tiddlypom]

That makes anyone who knowing goes out with a pack that they know is going to hunt fox a CRIMINAL.

Actually, legally speaking it doesn't. As long as a member of the field who is following (on horse or foot) what they know to be an illegal hunt doesn't actively get involved in the illegal hunting, but just tags along, they are not committing an offence, even if the illegal hunting is going on under their nose. The masters and the hunt staff are the ones who bear the risk.

The field get all the illicit thrills but none of the legal risk, which tells you all you need to know about them .

 

[meleeka]

I think there is some confusion over what is 'cruel' (ie causing unnecessary pain and suffering) and what some think is 'immoral'. I don't think shooting an animal for euthanasia is cruel if it is done properly. And personally I don't care what happens to the corpse once the animal is dead. But I can quite understand that a lot of people will feel it is 'immoral' to euthanise healthy animals solely on economic grounds.

I don’t think I used the word ‘cruel’ but I agree that ‘immoral’ is a better word. not that it makes much difference, it’s still something that the majority think is wrong and not something you’d do out of pure convenience, for a much loved dog.

 

[Sandstone1]

Your argument against hunting is yours to believe, your argument stating that shooting hounds is cruel, its fallacious and does nothing to make others believe the rest of your assertions.

I will put it this way then. IF the shooting is carried out by a person that knows what they are doing the act of shooting may not in itself be cruel and thats a big If as I have seen shooting a horse go wrong as I have the injection. What is cruel is the waste of life of a young healthy hound who has been bred to do a job which no longer exists being shot because its not up to the job.
How would you feel for instance if a assistance dog who didnt make the grade was shot simply because it was not suitable for the job?
Lets see whats going to happen a few months down the road when all hunting with hounds is banned. Whos going to be kicking up the fuss about all the hounds that will be put down then? Who will be blaming the sabs? Hunters thats who. They will be whinging and moaning and crying about all the hounds being put down when in reality they should have stopped breeding them. I would like to bet pups are still being bred now when its pretty clear that even trail hunting will be banned soon. They wont rehome them so whats going to happen? A bullet in the head thats what. They should not even be breeding them!

 

[Sandstone1]

I don’t think I used the word ‘cruel’ but I agree that ‘immoral’ is a better word. not that it makes much difference, it’s still something that the majority think is wrong and not something you’d do out of pure convenience, for a much loved dog.

Well most normal human beings wouldnt.

 

[TGM]

I don’t think I used the word ‘cruel’ but I agree that ‘immoral’ is a better word.

It was not in reference to your post.

 

[FestiveG]

cruel
/ˈkruː(ə)l/
Learn to pronounce

adjective

1. wilfully causing pain or suffering to others, or feeling no concern about it.
   "people who are cruel to animals"
   The Oxford dictionary definition of the word
   
   Unpalatable, to you, is probably a better word to describe it. There are many working dogs, in many fields, who do not retire well and who may well have a shorter life than their natural span.

 

[moosea]

But in the point I'm making there can be no debate. The hunt deliberately rode into our fields amongst our in-lamb ewes, lambs due in a week, despite knowing they had no access on any of our farm anywhere.
I used this as the specific example to prove that people definitely do mean and nasty things deliberately, not just through lack of education,and worded it better upthread.
Telling the truth does not show me in a poor light at all, imho.It was a dreadful experience particularly for OH who works so hard with the flock, to have this happen.
Another isolated incident indeed.

I understand that the incident above would have been horrible for your family.
My point was that slating posters who are no longer participating in this thread does not show people in a good light

Of course everyone is allowed a opinion and this is a forum. However the poster in question often just turned things on to sabs saying they had done this and that. Major whataboutery! There was no recognition that illegal hunting is going on. Even with videos and proof of wrong doings. Maybe the hunt they hunt with is innocent but the very many incidents of wrong doings on this thread prove beyond doubt that illegal hunting is commonplace. Fox hunting with hounds is illegal as we all know and to deny its going on is ridiculous. There is no excuse for it.

They are allowed to do that. It's an open public forum. If you have issue with the whataboutery then reply to their posts and discuss it! But please dont slate them when they are no longer involved in this discussion.

I think a lot of people have been kidding themselves about the reality of hunting for a long time. its more than time the truth came out once and for all. No one that can shoot a fit and healthy hound in the head can care for them. No excuses about its best for the hound etc etc. Its cruel. Plain and simple.

It's no crueler than injecting a chemical to kill an animal.
If you kill an animal, it is my opinion, that it should be quick and painfree as far as possible.

 

[Sandstone1]

I understand that the incident above would have been horrible for your family.
My point was that slating posters who are no longer participating in this thread does not show people in a good light




They are allowed to do that. It's an open public forum. If you have issue with the whataboutery then reply to their posts and discuss it! But please dont slate them when they are no longer involved in this discussion.




It's no crueler than injecting a chemical to kill an animal.
If you kill an animal, it is my opinion, that it should be quick and painfree as far as possible.

I was not aware that I was required to have approval from you about what I post? I have replied to that poster more than once and they are quite free to reply to me if they so wish. As you say yourself its a open forum.... I very much disagree with fox hunting and maybe a few people need to remember it is, and has been for a good while illegal. It matters not if you agree with that or not. Its a fact.
This is a subject which is very emotive and I will never change my mind about hunting.

 

[SilverLinings]

I don't know if I'm missing something but despite the fact that this thread/posters have gone off on a tangent a few times, I don't think anyone who has posted has actually said that they think illegal fox hunting is ok or even defensible? Posters have had different opinions on how prevalent illegal hunting is, how legal hunts operate and even whether hunting should have been outlawed in the first place but I haven't seen anyone argue that illegal hunting is justified or acceptable?

 

[suestowford]

Unpalatable, to you, is probably a better word to describe it.

Yes, unpalatable, to me too. I really wouldn't like this although if the shooter is competent it's very quick.
I wouldn't choose it for a horse either but I have been fortunate the last two times to have had the services of excellent vets who did the deed with their needles in a very efficient and compassionate way. The last time was an emergency, and up to the last minute we had hoped to save the horse. The vet was there, and the horse was becoming so distressed that there would have been no time to round up a shooter, even if I had wanted to. Many vets don't have a firearms licence these days, or so I've been told.

 

[FestiveG]

Yes, unpalatable, to me too. I really wouldn't like this although if the shooter is competent it's very quick.
I wouldn't choose it for a horse either but I have been fortunate the last two times to have had the services of excellent vets who did the deed with their needles in a very efficient and compassionate way. The last time was an emergency, and up to the last minute we had hoped to save the horse. The vet was there, and the horse was becoming so distressed that there would have been no time to round up a shooter, even if I had wanted to. Many vets don't have a firearms licence these days, or so I've been told.

A competent knackersperson will shoot a horse cleanly and efficiently. What each individual would choose is entirely up to them. To call someone who chooses a different, but equally legal and efficient, method cruel, is ridiculous imo

 

[MuffettMischief]

Sadly its not a single incident though is it? All these " isolated " incidents add up.

Yep there are plenty of incidents I agree with you there. But of the many thousands of people that go hunting, you cannot suggest that everyone treats their animals badly. You just want to think they do so you carry on

 

[GSD Woman]

She's very beautiful. Out of curiosity, do bloodhounds make good pet dogs? I have read on HHO that many foxhounds can be tricky in pet homes.

Bloodhounds are big, slobbery dogs. If you don't mind slime on the ceiling and stinky hounds* they can be a lot of fun. Don't chose one if you want you want a dog that is easy to obedience train.
*the stinky bit is my own experience. YMMV

I’m pretty sure anyone who shoots hounds doesn’t even give it a thought whether they are acting kindly or not. it’s just disposing of their unwanted possessions in the most convenient way to them without a thought for the dog.

Wow, that is a rude statement. Done correctly shooting is no more unkind than have the vet give an injection. And as someone with over 25 years experience in vet med injections don't always go cleanly. Veins may be hard to hit, IV catheters may not be patent, stuff like that. I was so paranoid about placing a bad catheter that I would flush the snot out of it to make sure it was good. Not everyone is so paranoid.

Then there are going to be a lot of very upset people, when animals are too expensive to keep and the rescues are full. The only responsible option will be euthanasia, whatever form that takes. I would consider it more immoral to keep animals without meeting their needs, because of financial constraints, than having them euthanize

I've always thought it was kinder to euthanize than to warehouse an animal. There are some dogs in particular that get neurotic after living in a cage for year after year.

 

[Millionwords]

I think this shooting/vs injection has been discussed before, and I think the opinion on it depends quite strongly on how you feel about death in general.
I have no problem with either method over all, because the body when dead is just skin and organs, however, there's nuance in how it can be acceptable (either method) from other outside factors. Those however are more subjective and less tangible.
The calmness, the care, the treatment of the body with care and kindness afterwards...(its just a body but being slung in a bin is unpalatable to me at least).

Quality of life - If a hound/horse/insert whatever animal cannot live a quality of life, cannot do all the things that that animal should naturally be able to (within reason) then surely death is better than an unhappy life.

I don't know how well foxhounds would re-home, but if they did show signs of stress, depression in that environment after the initial change of circumstances and settling in period, then it may be kinder to PTS.

That said, animals/dogs are very adaptable, and I think hunts are quick to say they're not rehome-able because the time/effort is greater than they are willing to commit to, so pts is easier.
Which I find incredibly unpalatable.

 

[Sandstone1]

Bloodhounds are big, slobbery dogs. If you don't mind slime on the ceiling and stinky hounds* they can be a lot of fun. Don't chose one if you want you want a dog that is easy to obedience train.
*the stinky bit is my own experience. YMMV



Wow, that is a rude statement. Done correctly shooting is no more unkind than have the vet give an injection. And as someone with over 25 years experience in vet med injections don't always go cleanly. Veins may be hard to hit, IV catheters may not be patent, stuff like that. I was so paranoid about placing a bad catheter that I would flush the snot out of it to make sure it was good. Not everyone is so paranoid.




I've always thought it was kinder to euthanize than to warehouse an animal. There are some dogs in particular that get neurotic after living in a cage for year after year.

Not rude just honest and the sort of people who can release a bagged fox to hounds, stab a fox with a pitch fork and stop badger sets really do not care about hounds or terriers either come to that. They just want to get their " Fun" . I have well over 40 years experience with animals and have seen a lot pts. I do not disagree that a quick end is the best but its more the disposable attitude to shooting hounds that they shouldnt even really be breeding.

 

[Sandstone1]

A competent knackersperson will shoot a horse cleanly and efficiently. What each individual would choose is entirely up to them. To call someone who chooses a different, but equally legal and efficient, method cruel, is ridiculous imo

Thats your opinion and I think you very well understand that its not just the method I disagree with but the fact theses hounds are treated as disposable by the hunt.
Do you really think hunts should continue to breed these hounds when the activity for which they are bred is illegal?
To be clear I do class anyone who goes fox hunting cruel and I can not and will never understand how anyone who professes to love and care for animals can enjoy going out to try to catch and kill a wild animal for fun!

I know I will get all the normal " its for the ride across country, its for the jumping, its for the fun, its for the social aspect, its pest control, its tradition etc etc. While some of those reasons may be true the cold hard fact you all seem to forget is at the end of it you are trying to kill a wild animal. A animal that will be terrified, exhausted and under massive stress.
Now we all know fox hunting with hounds is illegal but sadly we also know in a lot of cases trail hunting is simply a ploy to cover up illegal hunting. There is no point in trying to say thats not true because there is a lot of proof out there.
I am not a fluffy bunny I have been hunting many years ago. I have had animals for many many years and I have been born and brought up in the countryside and seen animals pts by shooting and injection. Maybe I could have worded it better but I stand by the fact that breeding hounds for a job that SHOULD no longer exist and shooting them when they are not required is CRUEL. Maybe the physical act of shooting is not cruel if carried out properly but what is cruel is the waste of life, the casual disposal and the lack of care for the hounds. Dont try and tell me the huntsman loves his hounds. If he can drag a healthy hound out of kennels and shoot it because its not required thats not love.
DO not forget or mistake these are not rescue dogs, they are bred for a purpose. A purpose which is illegal!
I would not argue that a rescue dog may be better off pts if no home was likely, thats not the case here. These hounds were bred for something which is illegal! Why are they still breeding them?
OH WAIT, silly me, of course its for trail hunting is it not. YEAH RIGHT.

 

[AmyMay]

Have we not just had this conversation? I have had a horse shot and had lethal injection. It depends on the horse and the circumstances.

And as someone upthread said, the act of injecting can be hugely traumatising for some animals. My little dog has recently undergone surgery. I was more worried about her distress at being injected than the actual surgery.

 

[Sandstone1]

And as someone upthread said, the act of injecting can be hugely traumatising for some animals. My little dog has recently undergone surgery. I was more worried about her distress at being injected than the actual surgery.

I do not disagree if you read what I have said. Its not actually the physical act of shooting. With pet dogs though there is a lot you can do to help with a needle phobia. Its more the waste of life, the disposable aspect. Maybe I am not explaining myself very well.

 

[AmyMay]

I do not disagree if you read what I have said. Its not actually the physical act of shooting. With pet dogs though there is a lot you can do to help with a needle phobia. Its more the waste of life, the disposable aspect. Maybe I am not explaining myself very well.

No, I fully understand what you’re saying. And to a point I don’t disagree.

Maybe I see it as akin to stock farming. Give them the best life you can and a quick end.

 

[Dexter]

Thats your opinion and I think you very well understand that its not just the method I disagree with but the fact theses hounds are treated as disposable by the hunt.
Do you really think hunts should continue to breed these hounds when the activity for which they are bred is illegal?
To be clear I do class anyone who goes fox hunting cruel and I can not and will never understand how anyone who professes to love and care for animals can enjoy going out to try to catch and kill a wild animal for fun!

I know I will get all the normal " its for the ride across country, its for the jumping, its for the fun, its for the social aspect, its pest control, its tradition etc etc. While some of those reasons may be true the cold hard fact you all seem to forget is at the end of it you are trying to kill a wild animal. A animal that will be terrified, exhausted and under massive stress.
Now we all know fox hunting with hounds is illegal but sadly we also know in a lot of cases trail hunting is simply a ploy to cover up illegal hunting. There is no point in trying to say thats not true because there is a lot of proof out there.
I am not a fluffy bunny I have been hunting many years ago. I have had animals for many many years and I have been born and brought up in the countryside and seen animals pts by shooting and injection. Maybe I could have worded it better but I stand by the fact that breeding hounds for a job that SHOULD no longer exist and shooting them when they are not required is CRUEL. Maybe the physical act of shooting is not cruel if carried out properly but what is cruel is the waste of life, the casual disposal and the lack of care for the hounds. Dont try and tell me the huntsman loves his hounds. If he can drag a healthy hound out of kennels and shoot it because its not required thats not love.
DO not forget or mistake these are not rescue dogs, they are bred for a purpose. A purpose which is illegal!
I would not argue that a rescue dog may be better off pts if no home was likely, thats not the case here. These hounds were bred for something which is illegal! Why are they still breeding them?
OH WAIT, silly me, of course its for trail hunting is it not. YEAH RIGHT.

Do you know how much damage your tirades do? Every time I see a post about some awful incident I lean more towards being anti. Then I see a post from you and remember how utterly awful sabs are and get pushed firmly back the other way.

 

[Sandstone1]

Do you know how much damage your tirades do? Every time I see a post about some awful incident I lean more towards being anti. Then I see a post from you and remember how utterly awful sabs are and get pushed firmly back the other way.

Well I am not a sab for your info. The fact that you think being a sab is a insult makes me laugh. Can you say anything I have written is not true? It does actually work the other way too. When I see the tosh pro hunters come out with I get even more anti so I guess we are even. What is it they say? Truth hurts?

 

[Koweyka]

The hounds are nothing but commodity to the hunt from my observation, when they aren’t “useful” any more and get a little slow, lose interest in hunting they are disposed of, doesn’t matter how it’s done but you are destroying healthy dogs with a long life a head of them. They are being over bred, far too many pups and not all will make the “grade” and what happens to those pups ….straight to the green field in the sky by whatever means.

I have seen recent footage of hunt hounds eating dead hounds because they were being starved, this was last season. Hopefully that story will be out at some stage.


Then last week I watched as a hound was hit by a car, what do you think the hunt did ? Not a thing …. Didn’t even call for help for the hound or the person that hit her.

So while I won’t tar every hunt with the same brush, from my experience they are seen as nothing but tools of the trade.

Hunts all over the country need to stop/slow the the breeding programme because hunting will end and the crocodile tears and blame game just won’t wash.

 

[Sandstone1]

The hounds are nothing but commodity to the hunt from my observation, when they aren’t “useful” any more and get a little slow, lose interest in hunting they are disposed of, doesn’t matter how it’s done but you are destroying healthy dogs with a long life a head of them. They are being over bred, far too many pups and not all will make the “grade” and what happens to those pups ….straight to the green field in the sky by whatever means.

I have seen recent footage of hunt hounds eating dead hounds because they were being starved, this was last season. Hopefully that story will be out at some stage.


Then last week I watched as a hound was hit by a car, what do you think the hunt did ? Not a thing …. Didn’t even call for help for the hound or the person that hit her.

So while I won’t tar every hunt with the same brush, from my experience they are seen as nothing but tools of the trade.

Hunts all over the country need to stop/slow the the breeding programme because hunting will end and the crocodile tears and blame game just won’t wash.

Exactly my point. How can hunts say they care for their hounds when they treat them like that?

 

[GSD Woman]

Not rude just honest and the sort of people who can release a bagged fox to hounds, stab a fox with a pitch fork and stop badger sets really do not care about hounds or terriers either come to that. They just want to get their " Fun" . I have well over 40 years experience with animals and have seen a lot pts. I do not disagree that a quick end is the best but its more the disposable attitude to shooting hounds that they shouldnt even really be breeding.

That is different from what you said about people not caring about the hounds. I also have over 40 years of working with animals. I must have a different mindset. These are primarily working dogs, not pets. And are there enough homes for all of these hounds that don't make the grade?

Since trail hunting is legal the hunts are, IMO, justified in breeding for their kennel. Honest question, why can't these hounds be retrained to do what you all call clean boot hunting?

As someone posted upthread, I also think of hounds more like livestock.

 

[TGM]

Honest question, why can't these hounds be retrained to do what you all call clean boot hunting?

'Clean boot hunting' is following the natural scent of human runners - this is usually done with bloodhounds because they are renowned for their amazing sense of smell. I'm not sure that foxhounds would have the scenting ability to be able to follow such runners without additional scent being used.

 

[Sandstone1]

That is different from what you said about people not caring about the hounds. I also have over 40 years of working with animals. I must have a different mindset. These are primarily working dogs, not pets. And are there enough homes for all of these hounds that don't make the grade?

Since trail hunting is legal the hunts are, IMO, justified in breeding for their kennel. Honest question, why can't these hounds be retrained to do what you all call clean boot hunting?

As someone posted upthread, I also think of hounds more like livestock.

Fox hounds are never to my knowledge rehomed they are always shot. I think blood hounds are used for hunting the clean boot. Fox hounds are a different breed. I stand by saying that huntsman do not care about the hounds or how could they treat them like a disposable product?

 

[TGM]

Fox hounds are never to my knowledge rehomed they are always shot.

I do actually know of a hunting foxhound who was successfully rehomed to a member of the hunt but I haven't heard of it happening a lot.

 

[Sandstone1]

I do actually know of a hunting foxhound who was successfully rehomed to a member of the hunt but it haven't heard of it happening a lot.

well I am glad it does happen, its not common practice though. I know people have show fox hounds but any that have been kept in a kennel and hunted would be a challenge for a pet home which is why breeding hunting fox hounds should be slowed right down before a total ban comes.

 

[ester]

Sometimes they go back to their puppy walker too.
Show foxhounds in the Uk pretty much if not all come from the same breeder

 

[Tiddlypom]

I do actually know of a hunting foxhound who was successfully rehomed to a member of the hunt but I haven't heard of it happening a lot.

I know of several hunt members who have tried to rehome a favourite hound after it retires from hunting but, despite best efforts, the hound has never settled down to enjoy life in retirement.

Like some people, they miss the routine and the company of their working life too much.