Hunting is in a spot of bother

[CrunchieBoi]

And if you celebrated those, pointed them out to the others, made a big fanfare about how you never sab them, then that would further your cause a great deal more than saying they don't exist.

Unless your cause really is the misguided one of getting toffs orf their posh horses.
.

I've never felt the need to go out my way to big up any given activity, sport or hobby on the basis it doesn't involve breaking the law if I'm honest.

 

[FestiveG]

I've never felt the need to go out my way to big up any given activity, sport or hobby on the basis it doesn't involve breaking the law if I'm honest.

Are you sure that's absolutely correct, as some anti hunt behaviour crosses the line into illegality?

 

[Wishfilly]

FWIW I do think it's really tricky. I know two of the hunts local to me hunt fox- like this is a widely known fact, and they've both also lost control of hounds causing harm to people's pets as well (and in one case on the roads, too, which is really dangerous). However, there's another hunt nearby which I thought was decent, and didn't break the law and genuinely hunted trails etc. They were targetted a little while back in the sense of a letter writing campaign etc, and lost some of their meeting spots. I thought they'd been unfairly tarred with the same brush, but then a few people I know and trust who had experience of hunting with them said they were hunting fox at least some of the time, just hiding it better (and keeping their hounds under control, which I suppose is something).

So now I've gone back to assuming that all trail hunts are illegally hunting fox, unless proven otherwise.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

So now I've gone back to assuming that all trail hunts are illegally hunting fox, unless proven otherwise.

I don't think that's unreasonable. The overall opinion in my equine-based friendship group is that the number of hunts making a genuine attempt to hunt within the law is so small and remains so silent that it's pretty much inconsequential.

My own opinion differs. I honestly don't believe that there are really any trail hunts that are genuinely 100% committed to hunting trails and nothing more.

 

[ycbm]

So now I've gone back to assuming that all trail hunts are illegally hunting fox, unless proven otherwise

Given the hostory the assumption is perfectly reasonable and I share it.

What isn't valid is to declare that there are none as Crunchieboi did, because it's not true..

 

[ycbm]

I've never felt the need to go out my way to big up any given activity, sport or hobby on the basis it doesn't involve breaking the law if I'm honest.

Even if it would help stop fox hunting. No, I get that, I understand that you're actually only invested in fighting and not in the most effective way to win.
.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

Even if it would help stop food hunting. No, I get that, I understand that you're actually only invested in fighting and not in the most effective way to win.
.

No clue what this post is trying to convey. Food hunting? I've not said anything about hunting for food.

 

[ycbm]

No clue what this post is trying to convey. Food hunting? I've not said anything about hunting for food.

It was a swype typo and I corrected it several minutes before you posted, though of course you knew full well what word it was supposed to be.
.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

It was a swype typo and I corrected it several minutes before you posted.
.

Deary me, so sorry for my poor internet connection.

 

[GoldenWillow]

As very much an anti due to our local hunts behaviour some of the recent posts by CB don't fill me full of joy either!

 

[Wishfilly]

Given the hostory the assumption is perfectly reasonable and I share it.

What isn't valid is to declare that there are none as Crunchieboi did, because it's not true..

As I say, I genuinely believed this hunt had been unfairly targetted and lumped in with other local hunts who behave really irresponsibly. But since then I've heard from multiple sources who I believe that no, they are hunting fox, just hiding it better (and not letting their hounds riot, which you would think is the bare minimum but...).

I really want to believe there are hunts following the law, and as I say I was totally willing to give these guys the benefit of the doubt. But now I feel doubtful that anyone on the outside can ever say for sure that a trail hunt is not ever hunting fox (on purpose). Trail hunting is such a smoke screen, that even if there are a small number of hunts hunting legally, I almost feel that it should be all drag/bloodhounds etc.

It was also mentioned up thread that some hunts are now very secretive. Obviously they blame it on antis etc, but we don't get a large number of sabs out down here, and I'm now convinced the secrecy is at least in part to try and allow them to hunt and kill foxes illegally. And unfortunately, our police aren't interested at all.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Former Old Berkshire Huntsman Oliver Thompson was spared jail on Monday. He was handed a 20-week prison sentence, suspended for two years, told to complete 300 hours of unpaid work, and to pay costs of £2,500.


He had previously pleaded guilty to two separate Section 4 Animal Welfare Act charges at an earlier hearing, and was back in court this week for sentencing. The court heard how Thompson, during his time as kennel huntsman and whipper-in at the Avon Vale hunt, had, along with huntsman Stuart Radbourne, thrown a fox to the hounds.

The incident was said to have occurred on Christmas Eve 2020 ‘near Melksham’, and was witnessed by a young child who was seen in the video, which had been shared amongst the fox hunting fraternity on social media chat groups. The child was said to belong to another terrierman present.

The video of the infamous Avon Vale Hunt digging out a fox on Christmas Eve 2020 (clearly filmed by someone with the hunt, not covert filming by an anti) is now freely being shared by the anti groups. It is is grimmer than a grim thing. It was used by the prosecution in the recent trial and conviction of their then kennel huntsman and whipper in.

This is a still from the video - be warned that the full video, if you look it up, is truly horrible. The hounds are milling around excitedly and the fox is hurled right into the middle of them once dug out .

 

[ycbm]

As I say, I genuinely believed this hunt had been unfairly targetted and lumped in with other local hunts who behave really irresponsibly. But since then I've heard from multiple sources who I believe that no, they are hunting fox, just hiding it better (and not letting their hounds riot, which you would think is the bare minimum but...).

I really want to believe there are hunts following the law, and as I say I was totally willing to give these guys the benefit of the doubt. But now I feel doubtful that anyone on the outside can ever say for sure that a trail hunt is not ever hunting fox (on purpose). Trail hunting is such a smoke screen, that even if there are a small number of hunts hunting legally, I almost feel that it should be all drag/bloodhounds etc.

It was also mentioned up thread that some hunts are now very secretive. Obviously they blame it on antis etc, but we don't get a large number of sabs out down here, and I'm now convinced the secrecy is at least in part to try and allow them to hunt and kill foxes illegally. And unfortunately, our police aren't interested at all.

Proving a negative is very difficult, but there are some posters on this forum who trail hunt and some of those I would trust that they are out with their hunt and see no evidence at all that fox are being hunted. Sadly they don't bother trying to explain that any more because they are met with attitudes like Crunchieboi's, who demonstrates some of the issues hunts face with more aggressive sabbing.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I’m not at all surprised that many antis don’t believe that there are many genuine trail packs out there .

When the antis do the right thing and back off a hunt which has decided to go legal, and largely leave it alone for years, only for the hunt to get bored of legal hunting and revert to the old ways - not very subtly either. Employ a known bad ‘un, stick with him when he gets a slam dunk conviction for illegal hunting with his old pack (based on his own Whatsapp messages), then he get two more convictions whilst in their employ for hunting a fox right under the noses of the local rural police team.

Inept barely describes it.

Would you trust them when they have promised (yet again, they always said they were) that they are hunting legally?

I despair to have to write that. I genuinely thought that they were showing the way forward, but the hard earned and fragile trust has been destroyed.

 

[ycbm]

Nobody is disputing that there aren't many real trail packs out there.

Crunchiboi said there are none and this is not true.

If people are going to engage in harassing others including children to prevent activities they want stopped, then personally I feel they do need to be telling the truth.

If they don't, then their concerns can too easily be written off as class warfare.

 

[Landcruiser]

The video of the infamous Avon Vale Hunt digging out a fox on Christmas Eve 2020 (clearly filmed by someone with the hunt, not covert filming by an anti) is now freely being shared by the anti groups. It is is grimmer than a grim thing. It was used by the prosecution in the recent trial and conviction of their then kennel huntsman and whipper in.

This is a still from the video - be warned that the full video, if you look it up, is truly horrible. The hounds are milling around excitedly and the fox is hurled right into the middle of them once dug out .

View attachment 130708

I've watched it - it's vile and cruel and inexcusable, and the fact that there is a young child standing there makes it even worse. Violent killing for the sake of it. It tells a very disturbing story about the kind of people these are.

My local hunt have been good with communication this year, perhaps because I kicked up such a stink last year when they let the hounds cross my land right next to my yard, causing mayhem with my horses including my youngster on box rest a week or two after stifle surgery. They caused merry hell all over the local area that day, and the police were involved. They've been in the vicinity twice this season, but apart from het up horses and loose poo all over the yard (my horses all charge around pooing liquid poo on hunt days) there has been no incident here. That said, even letting people know only allows so much mitigation. Even shut in a stable a horse can go crazy and injure itself, or colic. I think they are bloody selfish, as well as obviously lawless and cruel. (Nobody laid a trail over my land!)

 

[Tiddlypom]

To add to the post I put earlier about the recent conviction of the former Wynnstay huntsman for illegal hunting, here is the post verdict Facebook comment by the North Wales Police Rural Crime Team.

A huntsman was fined yesterday after being found guilty by Wrexham Magistrates Court of hunting a fox.

Chris Woodward (39), who now lives in Burford, Oxfordshire was the Huntsman of the Wynnstay hunt at the time of the offence in January 2023. He was fined £525 as well as costs and a surcharge, making a total of £1375.

Speaking after the verdict, Rural Crime Team Officer PC Dave Allen said: “We welcome the court’s verdict and thank the CPS and the witnesses for their assistance in bringing this case.

“As people may be aware, convictions under Sec 1 of the Hunting Act 2004 can be difficult to achieve due to many legal defences, however North Wales Police do investigate every matter and we will prosecute offenders whenever sufficient evidence comes to light.

“It is pleasing in this case that the Court agreed that a prominent member of an organised hunt did indeed commit the offence of hunting a wild mammal with dogs, and we would urge the public to continue to report such matters.”

https://fb.watch/p6zHcyZabl/

The apparently widespread former presumption by the local police in these parts that hunts were, in the main, acting legally and were being harassed by other parties when taking part in lawful activities has definitely shifted to a more open minded view.

Each similar conviction to this reinforces that view.

 

[Wishfilly]

Nobody is disputing that there aren't many real trail packs out there.

Crunchiboi said there are none and this is not true.

If people are going to engage in harassing others including children to prevent activities they want stopped, then personally I feel they do need to be telling the truth.

If they don't, then their concerns can too easily be written off as class warfare.

I obviously don't agree with harassing children, but I have to say in any other walk of life, taking your children to an event where you *knew* criminal activity would be taking place would be quite a serious safeguarding concern. I do find the attitude around taking children hunting with packs that the parents know are hunting fox bloody odd. But then I also find our local police's attitude pretty disappointing too. I do think there is a class element to it, because I think hunts get away with it because of their social class.

If I took my (hypothetical) 11yo child to a dog fight, I am sure I would face some consequences. As a teacher, I'd probably face consequences within my career, too. But I know people who take their children hunting with various packs around here who are all hunting fox, and apparently, that's fine- which, genuinely, I find very confusing. I don't say confusing to be disingenuous here, I am genuinely confused as to what the difference is, but there clearly is one in most people's eyes.

At this point, I think it does show there is one law for the rich, and one law for everyone else. If we want people to respect rule of law in this country, I'd say either we may as well just give up on the ban, or we need to enforce the ban that exists, OR we should perhaps consider banning trail hunting entirely because clearly it is a very effective smoke screen.

 

[Wishfilly]

To add to the post I put earlier about the recent conviction of the former Wynnstay huntsman for illegal hunting, here is the post verdict Facebook comment by the North Wales Police Rural Crime Team.

A huntsman was fined yesterday after being found guilty by Wrexham Magistrates Court of hunting a fox.

Chris Woodward (39), who now lives in Burford, Oxfordshire was the Huntsman of the Wynnstay hunt at the time of the offence in January 2023. He was fined £525 as well as costs and a surcharge, making a total of £1375.

Speaking after the verdict, Rural Crime Team Officer PC Dave Allen said: “We welcome the court’s verdict and thank the CPS and the witnesses for their assistance in bringing this case.

“As people may be aware, convictions under Sec 1 of the Hunting Act 2004 can be difficult to achieve due to many legal defences, however North Wales Police do investigate every matter and we will prosecute offenders whenever sufficient evidence comes to light.

“It is pleasing in this case that the Court agreed that a prominent member of an organised hunt did indeed commit the offence of hunting a wild mammal with dogs, and we would urge the public to continue to report such matters.”

https://fb.watch/p6zHcyZabl/

The apparently widespread former presumption by the local police in these parts that hunts were, in the main, acting legally and were being harassed by other parties when taking part in lawful activities has definitely shifted to a more open minded view.

Each similar conviction to this reinforces that view.

Unfortunately, I think it depends a lot on your local police and whether there is a will there to get involved. Around here, even with hunts with a widespread history of breaking the law (including convictions) seem to be allowed to do what they want with impunity, and unfortunately, the police appear largely disinterested. I assume it is mainly a lack of resources, but it is pretty concerning.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Wishfilly, do you have a Police Rural Crime Team in your county? That’s what has made all the difference in these parts. Rather than mostly urban beat bobbies being called in to police a volatile situation in which they have no great knowledge of what’s legal and what’s not, we have mobile specialist teams with the knowledge to see beyond a smokescreen.

 

[Wishfilly]

Wishfilly, do you have a Police Rural Crime Team in your county? That’s what has made all the difference in these parts. Rather than mostly urban beat bobbies being called in to police a volatile situation in which they have no great knowledge of what’s legal and what’s not, we have mobile specialist teams with the knowledge to see beyond a smokescreen.

Nominally, I believe we do. But my understanding is they are very small, and have to cover 2 counties. To be fair, I've never tried to contact them, but I know people who have (about all sorts of things, not just hunting) and been told that it's unlikely an officer will be able to attend.

I think our police are extremely stretched having to cover a wide area, and my experience with them in other circumstances (including some quite serious stuff at work) is that they aren't really able to attend unless a life is in danger. Sometimes they will attend later if they think there's a strong possibility of arrest.

A few years back when there was footage of hounds chasing and in one case kill pets, action was taken, but I've been told (again by someone I know well and has no reason to lie) that they said they wouldn't/couldn't attend for hounds out of control chasing a pet dog.

The ones who use open moorland to hunt are AFIAK far more in control of their hounds- I think a lot of their members farm and if the hounds started e.g. killing sheep on the moor, the hunt would probably fall apart. Whereas other hunts in the county mainly hunt on private land, but when they do come into contact with the public, their hounds can be completely out of control (which is actually my bigger concern because it is genuinely dangerous).

 

[Muddywellies]

I dont understand why people still go out 'hunting'. Since the ban it is now just a glorified hack, which seems to cause carnage. Baffled

 

[SEL]

I dont understand why people still go out 'hunting'. Since the ban it is now just a glorified hack, which seems to cause carnage. Baffled

But the glorified hack is fast, over land equestrians can't normally access and often with jumps. I completely get the attraction!

Even better if you can trash all the bridlepaths in that area without consequence - because it's miles away from where you live and ride yourself

 

[littleshetland]

But the glorified hack is fast, over land equestrians can't normally access and often with jumps. I completely get the attraction!

Even better if you can trash all the bridlepaths in that area without consequence - because it's miles away from where you live and ride yourself

When I lived adjacent to the hunt, all the bridlepaths around me were mud swamps all winter and pretty much impassable.

 

[Muddywellies]

But the glorified hack is fast, over land equestrians can't normally access and often with jumps. I completely get the attraction!

Even better if you can trash all the bridlepaths in that area without consequence - because it's miles away from where you live and ride yourself

So now a days, the only reason for the hunt is for the pleasure of the riders? It used to benefit the farmers. The hunt causes such mayhem, and for what? So a bunch of people can have a jolly ? I was at the Liberty and Livelihood march in London many moons ago, but now since the ban, I just don't see the point anymore. Once a month its carnage. If I caused that carnage on my hacks, I don't think it would go down too well.

 

[SantaVera]

I didn't go hunting until after the ban,thinking that trail hunting would be more like drag hunting with no foxes killed. I saw the law being broken on every hunt and badgers dug out of setts presumably for baiting. The local hunts maintain they hunt within the law. I don't think so .

 

[ycbm]

So now a days, the only reason for the hunt is for the pleasure of the riders? It used to benefit the farmers.

Not entirely. Some hunts will still shoot and or collect fallen stock. Some supply terrier services which are still legal. Some farmers ride with the hunt. And some farmers like the tradition.

All reasons why farmers have also allowed drag hunting up to now.
.

 

[spacefaer]

Not entirely. Some hunts will still shoot and or collect fallen stock. Some supply terrier services which are still legal. Some farmers ride with the hunt. And some farmers like the tradition.

All reasons why farmers have also allowed drag hunting up to now.
.

And some drag packs pay the farmer for access.

 

[Millionwords]

Distressing images.

Devon Hunt kill 2 hounds on A30.

.

Devon Hunt Kills Two Hounds On Busy A30

The Hunt Saboteurs Association has received reports of two foxhounds who were tragically hit and killed by cars today on the busy A30, near Okehampton, Devon.

Hound is stretchered into the vets in an attempt to save their life. One of the hounds, who was discovered by members of the public whilst still alive, was found to have sustained a broken spine during a car collision. They were taken to a nearby vets for treatment but sadly had to be put to sleep due to the severity of their injuries. Members of the public cared for this hound with a broken spine A second hound was later found dead on the side of the road by Devon County Hunt Saboteurs, who were returning home from sabotaging the Stevenstone Hunt. Having been alerted to the incident via a local Facebook group, the sabs rushed over to see whether anything could be done to save the poor dog. A second hound was found dead beside the A30 The hounds are believed to belong to the Mid Devon Hunt who were hunting foxes in the area at the time. The hunt met in the village of Belstone, less than a mile from where the two victims were found. An HSA spokesperson commented: “Hounds are as much victims of these cruel organisations as any other animal. Treated as mere tools by hunt staff, and deliberately put into exceedingly dangerous situations, RTAs involving foxhounds are sadly not uncommon. The fact that the hunt didn’t even go looking for any lost hounds speaks volumes. It is clear that the Mid Devon were intentionally hunting foxes close to the busy A road and as a direct result two hounds lost their lives.”

 

[shortstuff99]

The worst of it is they didn't collect the hounds themselves just left them to be found in the evening by locals.