Hunting is in a spot of bother

SilverLinings

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I think it will be a real shame if *proper* trail hunting is completely banned, but as so many hunts have proved themselves to be run by untrustworthy, lawbreaking liars I don't think there is any other way forward. If the ban goes ahead then I hope care is taken to ensure that it is watertight so that we don't have a continuation of the present situation where people pretend they are doing something lawful as a cover for continuing to hunt illegally.

A lot of people who hunt believed that there was a chance for the original ban to be repealed, but I don't understand how a large number of them thought that continuing to break the law would do anything other than damage their chances. Criminals who think they are above the law are never going to win the electorate's support. Ironically they claimed they were preserving tradition, but in reality they will be responsible for it's complete eradication.
 

Abacus

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I'm still struggling to work out if trail hunting includes true drag, or do they mean the so-called trail hunting that the traditional hunts do? In any case, presumably the drag hunts can continue without the hounds if they don't lay a trail but just follow the master.
 

SilverLinings

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I'm still struggling to work out if trail hunting includes true drag, or do they mean the so-called trail hunting that the traditional hunts do? In any case, presumably the drag hunts can continue without the hounds if they don't lay a trail but just follow the master.
I haven't seen any clear information about it yet, but I suspect that the gov't will go the whole hog and ban any situation where hunting could 'accidentally' take place, and that is likely to include drag hunting. The trail hunting debacle has shown that the lawless hunts will take on any guise that allows them to continue hunting illegally. I hope I am wrong, but I'm not sure how the wording could be made so watertight that drag hunting could continue without any risk of it being used as a cover by some people.
 

ycbm

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suestowford

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"A camera on the patio showed a fox, with baying hounds heard getting closer and more frantic. Within 20 seconds, the hounds were running past the patio and a horn and voices could be heard commanding the dogs." It would be interesting to know what commands were being given to the hounds - does anybody know? Perhaps it will come out during the case, but it could make a difference to the verdict if they were attempting to stop the hounds. Or perhaps they were encouraging them...
 

Miss_Millie

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A total ban would be a big relief. No matter what people's views are on killing foxes, we're far too populated of a country now for a pack of dogs to be running loose. Every year there are pet deaths - usually cats but also horses, alpacas and livestock. Hunts seem to have little to no control of their dogs, causing near traffic accidents and deaths of dogs on train lines, roads etc. It's only a matter of time before there is a human fatality and the lack of respect for the law is just astounding.

It has been pointed out many a time that it would have been banned forever ago, were this a working class sport with its main participants living on a council estate.
 

SilverLinings

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A total ban would be a big relief. No matter what people's views are on killing foxes, we're far too populated of a country now for a pack of dogs to be running loose. Every year there are pet deaths - usually cats but also horses, alpacas and livestock. Hunts seem to have little to no control of their dogs, causing near traffic accidents and deaths of dogs on train lines, roads etc. It's only a matter of time before there is a human fatality and the lack of respect for the law is just astounding.

It has been pointed out many a time that it would have been banned forever ago, were this a working class sport with its main participants living on a council estate.
I completely agree with your first paragraph, but not so sure about the second one. I have lived in several counties where the majority of the hunts are run by farmers or other working people, and the field is full of various locals, none of whom are upper class or rich. I have also lived near very wealthy hunts, but I don't think the majority are like that, and haven't been for a long time. I suppose that perception is possibly more important than reality for the press and general public though, and large numbers of them seem to think that anyone who owns a horse is rich and posh, so I can see why that opinion extends to hunting.

I think that political affiliation probably has more to do with it, and rural hunting areas have often been largely Conservative voting (in the heavily populated South mainly, less so in the North), so that has driven the Tory party to not want to ban it, and for years Labour didn't talk of a ban because they didn't want to push possible swing voters towards the Tories.

There has been recent talk about the intrinsic cruelty in pigeon racing and they have now lost their royal patronage because of it, but it is a sport that was traditionally seen as working class, so I don't think class trumps cruelty in the eyes of the general public these days, although it may have in the past (IMO pre-1950s).

It definitely needs to stop now, under the current rules it is just being used as a cover for organised unchecked law-breaking on a regular basis. It is a form of organised crime. It is a shame that legitimate trail hunting can't continue as it's enjoyable for many and preserves much of the tradition, but that has been prevented by those who arrogantly chose to break the law (over and over and over again).
 

Abacus

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It definitely needs to stop now, under the current rules it is just being used as a cover for organised unchecked law-breaking on a regular basis. It is a form of organised crime. It is a shame that legitimate trail hunting can't continue as it's enjoyable for many and preserves much of the tradition, but that has been prevented by those who arrogantly chose to break the law (over and over and over again).

I’m struggling to think of any other example where we ban a perfectly harmless thing because some people doing it break the law. We don’t ban shopping because some people shoplift, or driving because some speed. It’s a dodgy basis for any law (not that it will make a difference sadly).
 

SantaVera

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Our local hunt was definitely hunting illegally this winter and in the past terrier men have been in court for collecting badgers and baiting them.
 

Sandstone1

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I’m struggling to think of any other example where we ban a perfectly harmless thing because some people doing it break the law. We don’t ban shopping because some people shoplift, or driving because some speed. It’s a dodgy basis for any law (not that it will make a difference sadly).
Its a bit different when probably 80% are using trail hunting as a smokescreen.
 

Sandstone1

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Fair point but not drag hunts.
I can not speak for drag hunts as we do not have one in the area. we do however have a "" Trail hunt"" who do most certainly and obviously use it to hunt and kill foxes as well as causing disruption on the roads, upsetting livestock and killing pets.
 

Abacus

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I drag hunt and have never seen a fox, or seen the hounds do anything other than follow the line. I've absolutely seen the trail hunts go after foxes, and I don't go with them any more.
 

ycbm

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Fair point but not drag hunts.


No, but if they do go down it will be partly because they didn't speak up against what they knew was going on in the trail hunts. Everyone in drag hunting management knew the two Cheshire fox packs were still hunting fox, many hunted with both and the master of one drag pack took on another joint mastership with a different pack in order to hunt fox.
.
 

YourValentine

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Is that why they race home?? Oh my dog that's so sad 😭
No, they race home because they have a homing instinct. And like sheep dogs have been bred for years for that instinct.

Also it is massive anthropomorphisation to attribute a desire to "be home when their partner lays her eggs" to a bird, which is complete rubbish and completely detrimental to any rational discussions of animal welfare.

I'm not sure on what grounds people are questioning pigeon racing but if that is banned before the factory farming of chickens, it goes to show how totally out of touch with reality people are.
 

Abacus

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No, but if they do go down it will be partly because they didn't speak up against what they knew was going on in the trail hunts.
Will it really though? I'm not sure it will go down because drag hunters haven't taken the moral high ground (and absolutely, they should). I think it will be because both types are tarred with the same brush, mostly though ignorance of the difference between the two.
 

Peglo

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No, they race home because they have a homing instinct. And like sheep dogs have been bred for years for that instinct.

Also it is massive anthropomorphisation to attribute a desire to "be home when their partner lays her eggs" to a bird, which is complete rubbish and completely detrimental to any rational discussions of animal welfare.

Obviously not “to be home when their partner lays her eggs” but male birds do as much of the upbringing of the young as the females do so will that not be part of their instinct to be home for? Or do pigeons not co-share the work?

This is not arguing but genuine curiosity. I have no clue about pigeon racing and although I’ve spent years attempting to tame pigeons by feeding them I am not yet like the lady from home alone 2. I like pigeons although the chicks are horrendously ugly 😂
 

Burnttoast

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No, they race home because they have a homing instinct. And like sheep dogs have been bred for years for that instinct.

Also it is massive anthropomorphisation to attribute a desire to "be home when their partner lays her eggs" to a bird, which is complete rubbish and completely detrimental to any rational discussions of animal welfare.

I'm not sure on what grounds people are questioning pigeon racing but if that is banned before the factory farming of chickens, it goes to show how totally out of touch with reality people are.
Their having a strong homing instinct doesn't make exploiting it for fun any more (or at all) ethical. Racing pigeons frequently meet unpleasant fates on their way home or are found exhausted by members of the public. In the same vein my neighbour's collie was run over by a bike as a puppy and has had MSK problems all his life - while she's a brilliant owner who spends a huge amount of time and effort balancing his physical abilities with his mental needs, the fact that he has a strong drive is a real drawback for him given that his body can't really stand up to it. Breeding these strong drives into animals and then exploiting them could be considered really dubious ethically.
 

Clodagh

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Their having a strong homing instinct doesn't make exploiting it for fun any more (or at all) ethical. Racing pigeons frequently meet unpleasant fates on their way home or are found exhausted by members of the public. In the same vein my neighbour's collie was run over by a bike as a puppy and has had MSK problems all his life - while she's a brilliant owner who spends a huge amount of time and effort balancing his physical abilities with his mental needs, the fact that he has a strong drive is a real drawback for him given that his body can't really stand up to it. Breeding these strong drives into animals and then exploiting them could be considered really dubious ethically.
So really only pet dogs should be bred? That’s not meant to sound unduly aggressive but if you are going to do any sport with a dog it needs drive.
Are you ok with agility? Scentwork?
I think racing pigeons are things of beauty. So sleek and physically perfect.
 

Burnttoast

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So really only pet dogs should be bred? That’s not meant to sound unduly aggressive but if you are going to do any sport with a dog it needs drive.
Are you ok with agility? Scentwork?
I think racing pigeons are things of beauty. So sleek and physically perfect.
I guess it comes down to how willing anyone is to use an animal as sporting equipment. We may admire them physically or for their abilities, but we don't have to live in their bodies/heads. When the drive becomes a welfare issue for whatever reason it's the animal that has to suffer for it, even though it doesn't understand *why*. And the stronger the drive, the more likely it will be to cause problems in less than optimum circumstances. I'm only wondering. In a person 'drive' might be considered pathological, almost.
 
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