Hunting is in a spot of bother

equinerebel

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Also it is massive anthropomorphisation to attribute a desire to "be home when their partner lays her eggs" to a bird, which is complete rubbish and completely detrimental to any rational discussions of animal welfare.
There are plenty of animals who have an extremely strong instinct to return to their mate during and outside of breeding season - especially birds. Maybe not "home", but the OP's point was clear and not necessarily incorrect.
 

Clodagh

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I guess it comes down to how willing anyone is to use an animal as sporting equipment. We may admire them physically or for their abilities, but we don't have to live in their bodies/heads. When the drive becomes a welfare issue for whatever reason it's the animal that has to suffer for it, even though it doesn't understand *why*. And the stronger the drive, the more likely it will be to cause problems in less than optimum circumstances. I'm only wondering. In a person 'drive' might be considered pathological, almost.
The trouble as I see it is that if you don’t breed animals to work or be sporting equipment you no longer breed for soundness and athleticism.
 

Clodagh

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Or breed at all?
Well looking at Arab horses for instance, plenty still get bred but they would be impossible to ride.
Labradors the pet and show would still be bred and as it would in an ideal world only be legal to walk them round the park they’d be perfect.
I think animals should be fit for a function and if you go for decorative only you’ll lose that.
If racing goes, what would be the point of a thoroughbred?
 

Burnttoast

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The trouble as I see it is that if you don’t breed animals to work or be sporting equipment you no longer breed for soundness and athleticism.
Is a strong drive really 'soundness', though (returning to the point about this aspect of personality in humans)? Many humans with compulsive thoughts and behaviours find them distressing and would prefer not to have them.

The fact that show breeders have done bad things physically to many breeds is not an argument for breeding strong characteristics in other aspects of the animal *other than* good physical and mental health. What about sensible outcrossing? More focus on breeding a nice companion animal? There's recent evidence that brachy breeds are dropping in popularity, so maybe pet owners are starting to get the message - maybe.
 

Clodagh

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Is a strong drive really 'soundness', though (returning to the point about this aspect of personality in humans)? Many humans with compulsive thoughts and behaviours find them distressing and would prefer not to have them.

The fact that show breeders have done bad things physically to many breeds is not an argument for breeding strong characteristics in other aspects of the animal *other than* good physical and mental health. What about sensible outcrossing? More focus on breeding a nice companion animal? There's recent evidence that brachy breeds are dropping in popularity, so maybe pet owners are starting to get the message - maybe.
I suppose the drive is just part of the package.
Humans with unfettered drive (is that the same thing as poor impulse control? Don’t know), are probably people like Richard Branson.
It would be wonderful if brachy breeds did become less popular.
 

Ditchjumper2

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Well looking at Arab horses for instance, plenty still get bred but they would be impossible to ride.
Labradors the pet and show would still be bred and as it would in an ideal world only be legal to walk them round the park they’d be perfect.
I think animals should be fit for a function and if you go for decorative only you’ll lose that.
If racing goes, what would be the point of a thoroughbred?
Thats why there needs to be an element of careful what you wish for. There won't be 1000s of exracehorses grazing idyllically in green pastures, or hounds living their best non hunting life. It just won't happen. No racing no TBs , no hunting no foxhounds, beagles or harriers as like the horses the majority will be shot. Yes animals need to treated kindly and with compassion but its a slippery slope to want to ban everything!
 

Millionwords

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Thats why there needs to be an element of careful what you wish for. There won't be 1000s of exracehorses grazing idyllically in green pastures, or hounds living their best non hunting life. It just won't happen. No racing no TBs , no hunting no foxhounds, beagles or harriers as like the horses the majority will be shot. Yes animals need to treated kindly and with compassion but its a slippery slope to want to ban everything!
Does it really matter if they don't exist? We bred them into existance, theyre not naturally occurring... If there's no "use" for them, what difference does it make if they stop existing?

We don't breed iron age goats, or water fowl for posterity, they just changed and ceased to exist...
Keeping a species of wildlife alive and well is important for the food web and habitats... Keeping for example fox hounds or beagles or dalmatians or siamese cats or chihuahuas isn't.
 

Clodagh

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Does it really matter if they don't exist? We bred them into existance, theyre not naturally occurring... If there's no "use" for them, what difference does it make if they stop existing?

We don't breed iron age goats, or water fowl for posterity, they just changed and ceased to exist...
Keeping a species of wildlife alive and well is important for the food web and habitats... Keeping for example fox hounds or beagles or dalmatians or siamese cats or chihuahuas isn't.
Not a fan of the RBST then?
 

I'm Dun

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The trouble as I see it is that if you don’t breed animals to work or be sporting equipment you no longer breed for soundness and athleticism.

Thats the reasons whippets have so few problems. Enough people are breeding them to work or race etc to keep them physically sound. Theyve not really changed since they were created.
 

I'm Dun

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Drive is part of the soundness. If they didn't have drive they wouldn't work or race well and wouldn't be bred. Theres also degrees of drive no matter how carefully you breed. I've got 2 here, very similar physically, one is a killing machine with deer, rabbits, squirrels, insanely clever and good at his job, the other does occasionally give a half hearted chase but isn't really interested, he's a bit thick and an adorable clumsy clown. If you repeatedly bred from him and line bred to similar you would have a very different breed of dog pretty quickly. If you repeatedly bred from my other one, then line bred you would breed a huge problem. Malionois type problem with whippet speed. Just the thought gives me judders! Luckily in my breed they take a sensible approach and both types are used to breed a balanced dog normally it means sound in body and mind dogs on the whole.

And yes, I know its not every whippet and every breeder, but its enough the breed stays the same.
 

Burnttoast

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Thats why there needs to be an element of careful what you wish for. There won't be 1000s of exracehorses grazing idyllically in green pastures, or hounds living their best non hunting life. It just won't happen. No racing no TBs , no hunting no foxhounds, beagles or harriers as like the horses the majority will be shot. Yes animals need to treated kindly and with compassion but its a slippery slope to want to ban everything!
A slippery slope for people who want those animals around but not at all for the hypothetical individual animals of the future, who won't care at all that they never got born. If we're going to take it to its philosophical endpoint.
 

SilverLinings

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I'm not sure Exmoor ponies were "created".
I suppose they have heavily been influenced by man though, as the herds have been controlled and kept isolated (as in, no mating with other breeds allowed) for a long time. That's a good thing as otherwise we wouldn't be able to admire the lovely Dave 😍. They're not a human invention like the TB though, and they're supposed to be the oldest breed in the UK and closer to the original 'wild type' than any of the other UK breeds, so I wouldn't really see them as 'created' in the same way as general farmed livestock.
 

Bobthecob15

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Any idea when they might look to ban it? My OH thinks it’s not a priority for government at the moment and won’t be for years….
 

Sandstone1

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Any idea when they might look to ban it? My OH thinks it’s not a priority for government at the moment and won’t be for years….
I am hoping its going to be soon, in reality they have only been in power a couple of weeks and its going to take time. They have loads of things to look at. They have clearly stated that trail hunting will be banned so its a matter of time now.
 

ester

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Thats the reasons whippets have so few problems. Enough people are breeding them to work or race etc to keep them physically sound. Theyve not really changed since they were created.
I found a discussion on greyhounds the other day interesting, as bred for function but a bit like TBs that sometimes negating longer term health as that doesn’t matter so much if you can run fast when you’re younger
 

Landcruiser

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I found a discussion on greyhounds the other day interesting, as bred for function but a bit like TBs that sometimes negating longer term health as that doesn’t matter so much if you can run fast when you’re younger
They don't make old bones IME. We have a lot of clients at vets who take on ex racers. They all seem to get health issues younger than "normal" and seem prone to cancers. Not many of them get past 9 or 10, and some much younger.
 

I'm Dun

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I found a discussion on greyhounds the other day interesting, as bred for function but a bit like TBs that sometimes negating longer term health as that doesn’t matter so much if you can run fast when you’re younger
yeah sadly greyhounds are horribly prone to bone cancer and teeth issues amongst other stuff. Saying they are similar to TBs is probably the best way to describe it. Theres money involved so sense goes out of the window and its all about wringing whatever you can get out of them as soon as you can, then disposing of them. Its really sad. Greyhounds are lovely. More laid back than whippets and big clowns most of the time and would make ideal pets for people if they were bred outside of racing, but its nearly impossible to find a greyhound puppy. Racing for money/betting never does any animal any good I don't think :(
 

Tiddlypom

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The Countryside Alliance seems to have been mulling over the results of the General Election.


“We must give no excuse for precipitate legislative action, and this means both upholding the highest standards of conduct and addressing areas of legitimate public concern, even when this is challenging to traditional ways of doing things. We must be able to demonstrate that rural activities are properly conducted, well-regulated and need no attention from government.” So we urge anyone who is asked to contact their MP to please do so and for everyone else to listen to Lord Herbert’s words.

This sounds like “Oh heck, chaps, we need to clean our act up, and just maybe the government will believe that we are trail hunting within the existing law and will leave us alone”

Right sentiment, but 20 years too late, methinks. The damage has long been done under the watch of those with the future of hunting in their hands. You messed up.
 
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stormox

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Some trail hunts do hunt the drag though. The bloodhounds for example. And some have always been draghounds rather than fox. The Cambridge University
has always followed the drag.
I don't see why they should be banned.
 

TGM

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Some trail hunts do hunt the drag though. The bloodhounds for example. And some have always been draghounds rather than fox. The Cambridge University
has always followed the drag.
I don't see why they should be banned.
Bloodhounding (hunting the clean boot) and drag hunting are NOT 'trail hunting'. 'Trail hunting' is done by former fox hunting packs - it usually involves following an animal based scent.

Most (or all) drag hunting packs existed long before the hunting ban and follow an artificial scent.

Bloodhound packs 'hunt the clean boot' which means following the natural scent of a human runner.
 
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