Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Clodagh]

I don’t see bull fighting in remotely the same light as fox hunting. The fox knows his country and can travel freely, very different to shutting an animal in an arena and sticking big pins in it until it’s near death before being the big man and dispatching it.
I reiterate, I stopped hunting post ban but I don’t think bull fighting and fox hunting are the same kettle of fish at all.

 

[ycbm]

I don’t see bull fighting in remotely the same light as fox hunting. The fox knows his country and can travel freely, very different to shutting an animal in an arena and sticking big pins in it until it’s near death before being the big man and dispatching it.
I reiterate, I stopped hunting post ban but I don’t think bull fighting and fox hunting are the same kettle of fish at all.

I wouldn't have connected it either, but Palo's argument was repeatedly about the value of continuing culturally important activities. Bullfighting, in the countries which do it, is extremely culturally important. Even I recognise that.

I'm interested in exploring whether there's a limit to Palo's support for using live animals for entertainment on the grounds of cultural importance, and if so, where that limit is, and why.

I think it's a fair question.
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[palo1]

[

I wouldn't have connected it either, but Palo's argument was repeatedly about the value of continuing culturally important activities. Bullfighting, in the countries which do it, is extremely culturally important. Even I recognise that.

I'm interested in exploring whether there's a limit to Palo's support for using live animals for entertainment on the grounds of cultural importance, and if so, where that limit is, and why.

I think it's a fair question.
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I think this is a very pointed and uneccessarily personal response @ycbm. It feels faintly aggressive. But I will answer you. I have never connected bull fighting to hunting. Miss_Millie did that; I have never remotely connected the two which as Clodagh says are quite different; even you admit that you wouldn't connect them. I have only ever referred to hunting in this thread about hunting (not about bull fighting or other forms of animal baiting) and presented Miss_Millie with some information about indigenous people who hunt recreationally and for other reasons. This was because Miss_Millie asserted some things about indigenous people that were, in my experience and academic opinion - entirely evidenced by a great many academics, social scientists, ecologists, environmental scientists and anthropologists entirely unfounded. I was challenging the assertion that indigenous people only hunt for subsistence or survival and do not hunt or enjoy hunting activities recreationally. I have no idea why you have linked this with bull-fighting other than for the purpose of arguing and being somewhat confrontational?!

I know virtually nothing about bull-fighting, have never wanted to watch it or participate in any way. I haven't either ever discussed the matter with anyone Spanish or Portuguese. My opinion of bull fighting from what I have seen can only be described as uninformed but I would never want or see any reason, recreational or otherwise to bait a captive animal. In ANY circumstances. You have acknowledged the cultural importance of this activity to some European cultures; I have literally never mentioned any recreational activity that includes baiting live animals. Considerable amounts have been written and discussed about the difference between animal baiting and animal hunting and there are quite profound differences; I suggest you look those up if you are not clear about them. I do NOT wish to see animals suffer and I think you know that but I am repeating that just in case you or anyone else is in doubt that I do not want to perpetuate unneccesary cruelty to an animal.

Have you asked other people who trail hunt this question in this way @ycbm; you know a great many hunting people? What has their response been? I know no-one who trail hunts who has ever discussed bull fighting nor anyone that has ever spectated this activity. I am not clear why you have asked me this question directly. It is...odd and slightly disturbing tbh.

 

[shortstuff99]

Off topic from fox hunting, but if anyone is interested in the issues of indigenous populations and the environment this is a very famous and classic paper to read.

The pristine myth

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8306.1992.tb01965.x

 

[Miss_Millie]

I honestly don't think that ycbm was trying to be horrible.

I think what he/she was saying is where do you (not you personally but anyone) draw the line when the importance of tradition is tied to unethical sports or practices. As in, just because it is culturally important/has a history with whatever culture or country, if it is cruel and unethical, should that not be enough to put a stop to it in the 21st century? I can also think of 'traditions' in several cultures, that many countries would consider human rights issues, particularly in the treatment of women.

 

[palo1]

Off topic from fox hunting, but if anyone is interested in the issues of indigenous populations and the environment this is a very famous and classic paper to read.

The pristine myth

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-8306.1992.tb01965.x

Yes, this is a good one

 

[palo1]

I honestly don't think that ycbm was trying to be horrible.

I think what he/she was saying is where do you (not you personally but anyone) draw the line when the importance of tradition is tied to unethical sports or practices. As in, just because it is culturally important/has a history with whatever culture or country, if it is cruel and unethical, should that not be enough to put a stop to it in the 21st century? I can also think of 'traditions' in several cultures, that many countries would consider human rights issues, particularly in the treatment of women.

YCBM directed the question at me entirely personally Miss_Millie. There are a great many cultural 'traditions' that have been rejected by societies along the way. Hunting is an entirely global human cultural activity and has been, until the Anthropocene (now), been fundamental to what it is to be human. The importance of hunting in human society is still very contested however regardless, of how necessary or unneccessary in any particular situation it is and there are a great many people who will assert that hunting activities are still relevant and acceptable. For example in Sweden, which is largely considered to be a tolerant and enlightened modern Western democracy, the great majority of Swedish people support traditional moose hunting. It may be seen as unneccessary but their general attitude to hunting differs to ours. Of course we don't have to be like the Swedes, or the French who also generally, widely support hunting activities but without any hunting activity in this country there would, arguably be a further cultural disjunct and further elements of our connection with and knowledge of nature removed or destroyed. The knowledge and practices of hunters are very widely understood to provide valuable insights into nature and I believe that is still relevant in the UK. That perspective is not, globally, particularly novel or contentious though in particular situations it becomes massively so. Please bear in mind that I am referring to Trail hunting which is legal in the United Kingdom and I don't support illegal hunting. I don't agree with the assertions that all Trail hunting is illegal and because I believe that the culture of hunting is important to our collective knowledge culturally, environmentally and in relation to specific species and ecosystems which can be of benefit to our understanding and protection of the environment I see hunting as too important to get rid of.

 

[Tiddlypom]

These pesky CCTVs. Recording attempts to send a terrier in underground, then use of drainage rods, before hounds conveniently arrive on scene. No fox this time, though.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...RZqlIe7J3VCcOmMlfaDV0S2G14fllcgqGPEAzA0XXtKW4

A spokesperson for the Grove and Rufford Hunt said: “In the edited video footage allegedly recorded on 12 December, hunt representatives can be seen carrying out exempt hunting activities relating to the use of one dog below ground to protect game birds for shooting, which was being conducted in accordance with the Hunting Act 2004 in full compliance with all of the conditions of the exemption.

Interesting timing, doing all this on a hunting day, shortly before hounds arrive...

 

[Steerpike]

Hunts are not doing themselves any favors, the hunts that hunt by the law need to kick these other hunts into touch or should be disbanded.

 

[palo1]

Hunts are not doing themselves any favors, the hunts that hunt by the law need to kick these other hunts into touch or should be disbanded.

I certainly think that improved governance and discipline are in the pipeline - there is a great deal of anger about the disrepute some hunts are bringing the whole of hunting into. There are definately changes afoot in the 'management' of hunting and hopefully these will be clarified soon. However, it isn't possible to identify whether this CCTV footage is 'clean'. Even in the most extreme case (South Hereford Hunt )the sabs filming the crimes couldn't provide the police with 'clean' CCTV footage and refused to surrender some of their stuff; thus very nearly resulting in the case being dropped completely. Why was that; what exactly do they have to 'hide'? For people in the hunting community there is a definate understanding that a great deal of 'evidence' of hunting crimes is manufactured to some degree. This is reflected in the number of assertions on social media of hunting crimes that never get as far as a criminal investigation but continue to slur hunts that are hunting within the law. Even if the sabs don't like the exemptions and/or legal activities of people in the countryside they may well not be illegal. I certainly don't agree with all the 'legal' things that go on in many many spheres of society but there isn't much traction for me ranting on social media (probably a good thing!!)

Tbh, it has been widely acknowledged in so many places that the 'truth' is rarely relevant these days - the best thing to do is swamp social media with suggestions or alternatives and if you throw enough mud (in either direction) some will stick. It isn't the way forward in resolving conflict, different perspectives or anything really. The Herts Hunt Sabs recently posted this on their twitter feed :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1351464165957918721

They are dismantling some Larsen traps (and boasting about it) if you can't open the link. Lots of people would not want to see traps used (I am probably one of them) but this interfering with them is illegal (not to mention the issues around Covid at this point) and in light of the mess around the RSPB and trapping the whole conversation around these issues cannot be black and white - polarisation of views and communities tends to be very bad news all round. I don't think it is possible to assert loudly and angrily one thing whilst tolerating another of exactly the same sort of activity. I know that most hunt sabs would assert that they are ALWAYS on the side of the animal but sadly this is demonstrably not always true. They are also not always on the side of the law, nor can they take the moral high ground in view of the actions of some sabs. It has become so incredibly fashionable to have a go at 'hunt bashing' that before long I guess the media will have had it's fill...

 

[ycbm]

Have you asked other people who trail hunt this question in this way @ycbm; you know a great many hunting people? What has their response been? I know no-one who trail hunts who has ever discussed bull fighting nor anyone that has ever spectated this activity. I am not clear why you have asked me this question directly. It is...odd and slightly disturbing tbh.

I directed the question at the only person I know who has ever claimed that it was culturally important to the UK to keep hunting, nothing remotely personal except that you were that person.

I am VERY pleased to hear that you do not support bull fighting, no matter the enormous importance of it culturally to the areas where it takes place.
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[ycbm]

I certainly think that improved governance and discipline are in the pipeline - there is a great deal of anger about the disrepute some hunts are bringing the whole of hunting into. There are definately changes afoot in the 'management' of hunting and hopefully these will be clarified soon.

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Good, it is the only thing which will allow it to survive, and I still harbour dreams of going again one day.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I certainly think that improved governance and discipline are in the pipeline - there is a great deal of anger about the disrepute some hunts are bringing the whole of hunting into. There are definately changes afoot in the 'management' of hunting and hopefully these will be clarified soon.

That is good to hear. It needs to be a complete changing of the guard, though, not just a token twiddle with job titles. No one who featured on the infamous training webinars, or their connections, or who is associated with any of the known ‘naughty‘ hunts should go forward.

There is little support on here for law breaking by sabs, but I must admit that I didn’t realise that Larsen traps were legal...

As I used to say when pro and anti hunt sides were mixing it up here, ‘I want everyone to obey the letter and the spirit of the law’.

 

[Clodagh]

Nothing to do with hunting but Larsen traps save many a life, for all that they are horrible things. The good they do certainly outweighs the unattractive aspects.

 

[palo1]

Nothing to do with hunting but Larsen traps save many a life, for all that they are horrible things. The good they do certainly outweighs the unattractive aspects.

This is the thing isn't it? They don't look great and it is understandable why people don't like them/want them but it isn't black and white at all...I have pondered over the issue of traps a lot lately having read about both Chris Packham and Wild Justice (shooting and trapping) as well as the RSPB action to trap stoats on Orkney in order to support birdlife. (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/06/bbc-quick-listen-chris-packham-friends-rspb/ and the RSPB itself on trapping here: https://community.rspb.org.uk/ourwork/b/investigations/posts/general-licence-to-kill, and a local view here: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18315870.project-get-rid-alien-stoats-left-illegal-traps-isle/ and here: https://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/news/17673426.rspb-reported-illegal-trap-setting/) Unfortunately this got into the news because the traps also caught some domestic cats! https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/project-rid-alien-stoats-kills-23002138 I like stoats, think they are brilliant of course and don't especially like the idea of trapping/killing them but if the RSPB doesn't do that, ground nesting bird's lives will be lost. Some of those birds are incredibly vulnerable and it would seem appallingly negligent not to do our best to support them and their habitat. At the same time CP is the poster boy for the Great British Garden Birdwatch...

The reason I included the tweet about the sabs and Larsen traps is because it isn't possible to know exactly what the consequence of dismantling these traps will be; there can't be an absolute definate animal welfare 'win'.

These issues just aren't simple and it really ires me that the media and social media love to try to make them so...

ETA - I don't want to be even more contentious than normal on this subject but 4 cats were killed by traps, and 18 Hedgehogs on Orkney yet this isn't a news item that hit the headlines like the hunting issues do but I am certain that the cats on Orkney were as loved as the one at High Peak and I hope those cats and hedgehogs were killed as quickly as possible in the traps...we really don't need to be killing hedgehogs!!

 

[Steerpike]

I always wondered what those traps were called, there used to be one on the farm when I first moved my ho|ses there about 7 years ago, they didn't have it up for long and it's now rotted in a corner of a open barn

 

[Clodagh]

ETA - I don't want to be even more contentious than normal on this subject but 4 cats were killed by traps, and 18 Hedgehogs on Orkney yet this isn't a news item that hit the headlines like the hunting issues do but I am certain that the cats on Orkney were as loved as the one at High Peak and I hope those cats and hedgehogs were killed as quickly as possible in the traps...we really don't need to be killing hedgehogs!!

On some islands they do need to be killing hedgehogs as they are decimating the ground nesting birds there. Can't remember where they want to do or do a hedgehog cull, there was a lot of opposition to it and it may have been shelved.
No hedgehogs round here anyway, too many badgers.

 

[palo1]

On some islands they do need to be killing hedgehogs as they are decimating the ground nesting birds there. Can't remember where they want to do or do a hedgehog cull, there was a lot of opposition to it and it may have been shelved.
No hedgehogs round here anyway, too many badgers.

I didn't realise that @Clodagh! (about needing to cull hedge-pigs). I have to say that perfectly demonstrates that nuance and facts are very much needed in any discussion. We do have hedgehogs here and also badgers but increasingly rare curlews and other ground nesters.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Hedghogs are now considered an endangered species.

 

[palo1]

Hedghogs are now considered an endangered species.

Yes, they are and they certainly need protection but it is difficult to know which species should be prioritised - ground nesting birds on the edge of extinction in the UK or our wonderful hedgehogs who are suffering mightily in terms of numbers though not quite in danger of extinction...yet. They all need help in different places and in different ways so blanket policies and opinions about right or wrong ways to manage wildlife are not really that helpful or useful.

 

[ester]

Being a ground nesting bird is a bit of an evolutionary lose really.

 

[Upthecreek]

Very interesting thread, but I keep coming back to this; Hunting animals with dogs is banned and this will never be repealed. So what is the point of hunts continuing? What benefits are there? Whether you were pro hunting or anti hunting for the control of foxes/deer/hare/otter/mink before the ban, what is the point in hunting now?

 

[ycbm]

Very interesting thread, but I keep coming back to this; Hunting animals with dogs is banned and this will never be repealed. So what is the point of hunts continuing? What benefits are there? Whether you were pro hunting or anti hunting for the control of foxes/deer/hare/otter/mink before the ban, what is the point in hunting now?

Trail/drag/clean boot hunting is damned good fun!

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[Upthecreek]

Trail/drag/clean boot hunting is damned good fun!

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But when it causes so many problems in the countryside and animals are being hunted and killed illegally, whether intentionally or not, is it justifiable to continue it just for the fun of those that participate if it is harmful to others? Doing things for fun is fine if it isn’t to the detriment of others - I’m not sure that is the case with hunting.

 

[ycbm]

But when it causes so many problems in the countryside and animals are being hunted and killed illegally, whether intentionally or not, is it justifiable to continue it just for the fun of those that participate if it is harmful to others? Doing things for fun is fine if it isn’t to the detriment of others - I’m not sure that is the case with hunting.

Drag hunting never illegally killed anything all the time I've done it. One lamb, total mistake by hunt and farmer who agreed to have hounds go through sheep with lambs at foot.
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[Upthecreek]

Drag hunting never illegally killed anything all the time I've done it. One lamb, total mistake by hunt and farmer who agreed to have hounds go through sheep with lambs at foot.
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But with all the examples just on this thread of animals killed, livestock terrorised, crops trampled, fences broken, I go back to my original question; what is the point? I cannot understand why landowners allow hunts on their land for zero benefit when there is a risk of damage. Do hunts pay landowners?

 

[Clodagh]

But with all the examples just on this thread of animals killed, livestock terrorised, crops trampled, fences broken, I go back to my original question; what is the point? I cannot understand why landowners allow hunts on their land for zero benefit when there is a risk of damage. Do hunts pay landowners?

I'm not sure! I would not see the point in drag hunting, just go for a hack or if you must a sponsored ride. That is just me though. Hunts do not pay farmers.

 

[teapot]

I keep seeing the hashtag 'huntingwithinthelaw' used by photographers on Instagram.

Not sure whether that's a good thing or a 'we're photographing legal stuff honest guv'...

 

[Orangehorse]

I'm not sure! I would not see the point in drag hunting, just go for a hack or if you must a sponsored ride. That is just me though. Hunts do not pay farmers.

O come on, nothing to compare with (drag) hunting certainly not comparing to hack or a sponsored ride. Tests the bravery of horse and rider, tacking unseen country, trying to keep up with the hounds and huntsman. And it is a social thing too, the hunt can be your 100% social life if you like, from the point-to-point, team chase competition, fund raising events like Christmas Fair, luncheons. All this goes towards the expenses of keeping hounds, horses and paying the hunt staff and maintaining the buildings.

 

[TGM]

I would not see the point in drag hunting, just go for a hack or if you must a sponsored ride. .

I've never drag-hunted but I've been out 'hunting the clean boot' (bloodhounding) and it is totally different from going for a hack or going on a sponsored ride! You get access to land which you normally wouldn't be able to ride over, for a start, and it is very social with a fairly big group of people, some who you may know, and some you have never met before. Whereas hacking or sponsored rides you would generally be with a small group of people you already know. Then there is the thrill of being swept along in the field, not knowing quite where you are going or what you may have to jump or what terrain you have to negotiate. Finally, there is the joy of seeing the hounds work - it is amazing how they can follow the natural scent of a runner without the need for artificial scent.

As to what the farmers/landowners get out of it, whilst they don't get paid, it is often customary to give them a small gift as a thank you afterwards. Many are horse people themselves and are happy to have their land used. Obviously if they ride themselves then they can join in without paying a cap. Some landowners love the tradition of having a meet at their place, without having to worry about the possibility of sabs. I've known some to actually use photos of the meet on their Christmas cards! If they run businesses from their land (wedding venues, farm shops, garden tours etc) then they might feel they get more exposure of that via people hunting there and the associated coverage on Facebook and websites without the worry of being associated with the possibility of illegal hunting.

However, the hunt I've been with do work hard to keep good relations with landowners, being careful to make good any damage etc. As an aside, there are several landowners who have commented how nice it is to be treated respectfully, in contrast to their experience with some other packs.