Hunting is in a spot of bother

Clodagh

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 August 2005
Messages
17,255
Location
Essex
I think the 'born as hunters' is a silly comparison tbh.

The only hunters I have respect for are indiginous peoples - their entire way of living is about treading as lightly as possible on the earth. They hunt to survive and have complete respect for the landscape and the animals they kill for sustenance. They live outside of the capitalist, consumer-driven world that the rest of us live in.

Those who hunt fox and stag on the other hand, also drive around is their gass-guzzling 4x4s, tear up the landscape, and going by the video above, couldn't give an eff whether or not the animal is distressed, in pain, suffering. Then probably go home to their posh houses and have champagne in the bath!

When it comes to meat eaters being hypocrites/having double standards, that is fair enough to say, but there is some cognative dissonance at play there. If most people had to kill an animal before they ate it, they probably wouldn't do it, because most people love animals and have empathy for them.

Which is why it is alarming and disturbing when you see hunters getting a THRILL out of seeing an animal in fear, being torn to shreds. Surely that type of person would also beat their wife and hit their kids?

It grosses me out on so many levels.
We kill our food and then eat it, here on the farm, I’m good with that.
We even have poor people (irony here) who come and kill food and eat it. The money people have is so irrelevant and such a silly point.
 

skinnydipper

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 February 2018
Messages
2,909
They don’t kill the carted stag (no idea if it still is a thing) once bought to bay it goes home on the trailer.
TBH, Clodagh, I didn't look to see what it entailed.

(I was unable to watch the whole of the video that was posted on a previous post.)

If it isn't killed, I assume the "pleasure" comes from chasing the thing as it runs for it's life to the point of exhaustion.
 

Miss_Millie

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 August 2020
Messages
113
We kill our food and then eat it, here on the farm, I’m good with that.
We even have poor people (irony here) who come and kill food and eat it. The money people have is so irrelevant and such a silly point.
It's not about the money, it's about the lifestyle that goes with the money and the self-entiled attitude that goes with it.

E.g. indigenous people live off of the land, hunt respectfully and only kill what they need when they need it.

Going by the many years of news reports, hunters in the UK frequently block roads, trespass on land, their dogs attack livestock and kill pets, and if the hunting is 'for sport', then well, I don't think I need to explain why that is totally unsavoury. Not to mention, continuously breaking the law by hunting fox, as if they are above it.
 

ycbm

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 January 2015
Messages
33,558
TBH, Clodagh, I didn't look to see what it entailed.

(I was unable to watch the whole of the video that was posted on a previous post.)

If it isn't killed, I assume the "pleasure" comes from chasing the thing as it runs for it's life to the point of exhaustion.
And then they load it up, take it home, feed it to get it strong again so they can chase it all over again in a different place next week. A flighty prey animal.
.
 

Miss_Millie

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 August 2020
Messages
113
And obviously as I would help my husband gut a deer he has shot I also beat my children. 🙄
I was referring to the kind of individuals who hunt for fun and get pleasure out of seeing an animal suffering, not those who hunt to eat meat.

I don't eat meat myself, but to be honest, killing a deer with one fatal shot in it's natural habitat is almost definitely a lot kinder than what animals have to go through that are raised for slaughter.

Interestingly, there are a lot of studies on the correlation between slaughterhouse workers and domestic violence. The reason being that people who kill every day, become desensitized to violence (because obviously, slitting throats all day is pretty violent).
 

Clodagh

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 August 2005
Messages
17,255
Location
Essex
I was referring to the kind of individuals who hunt for fun and get pleasure out of seeing an animal suffering, not those who hunt to eat meat.

I don't eat meat myself, but to be honest, killing a deer with one fatal shot in it's natural habitat is almost definitely a lot kinder than what animals have to go through that are raised for slaughter.

Interestingly, there are a lot of studies on the correlation between slaughterhouse workers and domestic violence. The reason being that people who kill every day, become desensitized to violence (because obviously, slitting throats all day is pretty violent).
That makes a weird sort of sense. How awful and sad. I know the owners of our local slaughterhouse and would say they are pretty blasé about death, but so far as I know haven’t committed domestic violence.
 

skinnydipper

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 February 2018
Messages
2,909
Irish Times. 30.12.20

Huntsman killed by stag at hunt kennels in Co Cork

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...-by-stag-at-hunt-kennels-in-co-cork-1.4447468


"Some pro-hunt sources claimed online that the stag was not only a “pet” but also used for scenting purposes to avoid the foxhounds chasing deers while hunting foxes, but little evidence seems to support this claim. Our source explains the stag was held captive and exploited for carted stag hunting for around three years. One of our sources expressed that keeping a stag captive in a kennel full of 40 barking and howling hounds will likely have caused the stag severe stress during his captivity and exploitation. Stag hunting with (more than two) hounds was made illegal in 2007 under the Wildlife Amendment Act, and if there is definitive proof that illegal hunting occurred, the “Duhallow Hunt” could be prosecuted."

https://huntsabsireland.com/news/stag-hunted-and-killed-29/12/20
 

Miss_Millie

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 August 2020
Messages
113
Irish Times. 30.12.20

Huntsman killed by stag at hunt kennels in Co Cork

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...-by-stag-at-hunt-kennels-in-co-cork-1.4447468


"Some pro-hunt sources claimed online that the stag was not only a “pet” but also used for scenting purposes to avoid the foxhounds chasing deers while hunting foxes, but little evidence seems to support this claim. Our source explains the stag was held captive and exploited for carted stag hunting for around three years. One of our sources expressed that keeping a stag captive in a kennel full of 40 barking and howling hounds will likely have caused the stag severe stress during his captivity and exploitation. Stag hunting with (more than two) hounds was made illegal in 2007 under the Wildlife Amendment Act, and if there is definitive proof that illegal hunting occurred, the “Duhallow Hunt” could be prosecuted."

https://huntsabsireland.com/news/stag-hunted-and-killed-29/12/20
That's so horrible. I don't know how people like that sleep at night.
 

stormox

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 May 2012
Messages
2,793
Location
midlands
The Ward Union used to hunt the carted stag -they have a big herd - and as far as I know, the stag was usually allowed to run back to the cart and got taken home again! It has stopped now as a law was passed that meant the only way the hunt could legally carry on was to lead the stag around the countryside, put him away and then the hounds follow the trail...
 
Last edited:

Miss_Millie

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 August 2020
Messages
113
That makes a weird sort of sense. How awful and sad. I know the owners of our local slaughterhouse and would say they are pretty blasé about death, but so far as I know haven’t committed domestic violence.
Slaughterhouse workers also have highly increased rates of PTSD and alcohol/drug abuse. Suicide rates are very high. It's a huge part of the reason why I stopped eating meat. I see it as a human rights issue as much an an animal rights issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-50986683

'One skill that you master while working at an abattoir is disassociation. You learn to become numb to death and to suffering. Instead of thinking about cows as entire beings, you separate them into their saleable, edible body parts. It doesn't just make the job easier - it's necessary for survival.'
 

palo1

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 July 2012
Messages
2,033
I think the 'born as hunters' is a silly comparison tbh.

The only hunters I have respect for are indiginous peoples - their entire way of living is about treading as lightly as possible on the earth. They hunt to survive and have complete respect for the landscape and the animals they kill for sustenance. They live outside of the capitalist, consumer-driven world that the rest of us live in.

Those who hunt fox and stag on the other hand, also drive around is their gass-guzzling 4x4s, tear up the landscape, and going by the video above, couldn't give an eff whether or not the animal is distressed, in pain, suffering. Then probably go home to their posh houses and have champagne in the bath!

When it comes to meat eaters being hypocrites/having double standards, that is fair enough to say, but there is some cognative dissonance at play there. If most people had to kill an animal before they ate it, they probably wouldn't do it, because most people love animals and have empathy for them.

Which is why it is alarming and disturbing when you see hunters getting a THRILL out of seeing an animal in fear, being torn to shreds. Surely that type of person would also beat their wife and hit their kids?

It grosses me out on so many levels.
I said I would not post again but...Have you ever lived with, observed or studied any indigenous people @Miss_Millie ? Do you have any clue what the lives and culture of any indigenous group is like in reality? There are virtually no indigenous people who do NOT hunt for recreation; ie sport and leisure. There are lots of reasons for this, depending of which group of people you are looking at, when and in what context and there is a wealth of research around this subject: environmental, ecological and anthropological. Belief systems and cultural reasons are significant drivers in recreational hunting. I am not going to point out the absolute mountain of knowledge on this subject, nor the variety of views on it - that is perhaps something you could do yourself if you were interested. This is an area of knowledge that I have personally, academically and professionally so I do feel confident to challenge your assertions on this.
 

Miss_Millie

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 August 2020
Messages
113
I said I would not post again but...Have you ever lived with, observed or studied any indigenous people @Miss_Millie ? Do you have any clue what the lives and culture of any indigenous group is like in reality? There are virtually no indigenous people who do NOT hunt for recreation; ie sport and leisure. There are lots of reasons for this, depending of which group of people you are looking at, when and in what context and there is a wealth of research around this subject: environmental, ecological and anthropological. Belief systems and cultural reasons are significant drivers in recreational hunting. I am not going to point out the absolute mountain of knowledge on this subject, nor the variety of views on it - that is perhaps something you could do yourself if you were interested. This is an area of knowledge that I have personally, academically and professionally so I do feel confident to challenge your assertions on this.
I would just like to say firstly, Palo, that your language is very condescending. I'm not stupid, but you talk to me like I am. It comes across as really rude.

I'm not an expert on indigenous peoples and I never said that I was. My point in comparing indigenous peoples (from various parts of the world) to those who hunt in westernized countries for sport or 'pleasure', is that their primary purpose for hunting is to eat and survive.

I understand that there are many complexities and probably contradictions to the subject, and you can't tar every person or community with the same brush. That being said, indigenous peoples are generally upheld as stewards of the land and conservationists.

If I were to simplify/broaden my point earlier, it is that I have respect for people who hunt for survival purposes, and zero tolerance for people who kill for fun/take enjoyment out of watching an animal suffer. There are plenty of people who hunt that are drawn to the 'sport' for this reason.
 

AdorableAlice

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 October 2011
Messages
11,869
You might not but someone down the line might well do.

Stressed meat has altered biochemistry/meat quality and a much shorter shelf life. (PSE or DFD meat)
That is correct. My father who died many years ago was a butcher and slaughter man. As a young man he and his brothers reared beef for the business and in later years he picked the beef at market before dealing with it himself. If the beast is stressed on the hoof pre despatch the quality is compromised. I spent many hours with him as a child and he hoped I would take it on. I vividly remember him explaining how the beasts had to be handled well to eat well. My mother who is now in her late eighties still enjoys the occasional steak and I have to be very careful where I buy it from because at the first mouthful she will tell me if the beast was stressed, followed by telling me to put the meat in the bin.
 

palo1

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 July 2012
Messages
2,033
I would just like to say firstly, Palo, that your language is very condescending. I'm not stupid, but you talk to me like I am. It comes across as really rude.

I'm not an expert on indigenous peoples and I never said that I was. My point in comparing indigenous peoples (from various parts of the world) to those who hunt in westernized countries for sport or 'pleasure', is that their primary purpose for hunting is to eat and survive.

I understand that there are many complexities and probably contradictions to the subject, and you can't tar every person or community with the same brush. That being said, indigenous peoples are generally upheld as stewards of the land and conservationists.

If I were to simplify/broaden my point earlier, it is that I have respect for people who hunt for survival purposes, and zero tolerance for people who kill for fun/take enjoyment out of watching an animal suffer. There are plenty of people who hunt that are drawn to the 'sport' for this reason.
I am sorry if you found my tone condescending; I was frustrated when I wrote the post. It just doesn't help anyone to think through any of the issues raised if statements that are not based on any knowledge or understanding are posted. With reference to your post about indigenous people; there is even trouble clarifying what that means in the 21st century and yes, whilst many commentators from the 'outside' of those societies that may be identified as indigenous assert that these people are the best stewards for the land, others assert that these people are not. This will be familiar territory I think.

Also, as I said earlier, there are virtually no 'indigenous' (be careful of that phrase, it is highly politicised and makes some folk very edgy!) people that don't hunt for recreation (sport/pleasure) even if they also need to hunt for survival, subsistence or both. Cultures that hunt for any reason at all will also hunt for pleasure/sport/recreation. That isn't contested although it is not fashionable to study that or even acknowledge it in the mainstream press/media as that entirely contradicts the current narrative about finding a kind of environmental nirvana in 'easy on the eye' indigenous cultures.

The presentation of indigenous tribes as 'pure', naive to consumerism and in total harmony with their environment is appallingly condescending and whilst entirely well meant can be interpreted as pretty offensive and totally unrealistic. People have living, evolving and pretty complex and sophisticated cultures the world over...how do we judge which are the most 'worthy' of support? As an academic my particular research interest was in The Uighur culture of Xinjiang in China; the same poor people who are currently being de-cultured by the Chinese government; their language, hobbies, religion, habits and dress are being taken from them and far, far worse.

Their portrayal in the media until recently was pretty minimal but they share their interest in hunting with eagles with other people of that area. That form of hunting is regularly glamorised by Western media but in reality, Uighurs do NOT need to hunt with eagles to put their tea on the table. They hunt for pleasure, for status, for competition, occasionally to harass wolves which bother their stock and to provide light relief from really quite hard lives. Effectively, whilst it 'looks' very 'different' to perhaps Sheffield, their eagles live in the equivalent of the garden shed. They often hunt foxes and learn this skill in the time honoured fashion of doing and making mistakes. Hunting with eagles undoubtedly takes remarkable skill and knowledge, not to mention no small amount of courage. However, it is as much a part of their culture as moose hunting is in Sweden for example or perhaps...no, I won't go there!! Perhaps though, these people would not be quite 'indigenous' enough for you...it would be a good topic to discuss who is indigenous 'enough' actually, anywhere in the world. There is an awful lot of very interesting stuff about this subject but I really do feel I have had my say now.
 
Last edited:

Miss_Millie

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 August 2020
Messages
113
I'm not sure that this conversation is productive, Palo. My main point was that (to me) there is a big difference between hunting for survival and hunting for sport. It makes me sick to see someone take pleasure out of harming an animal - that is just twisted and derranged.

The majority of the UK public are against fox hunting - to most UK residents it is not culturally important, but distasteful and something we'd rather put in the past - hence the reason it was banned a long time ago.
 

Kipper's Dick

Well-Known Member
Joined
29 November 2020
Messages
60

Miss_Millie

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 August 2020
Messages
113
So they are saying that they do not agree with legal trail-hunting? Do they not realise that fox-hunting is banned now? And that the Mendip Farmers would be/should be a legal trail hunt? Strewth, they can stick their stewarding in the place where the sun don't shine.
The Mendip Hunt have a reputation for breaking the law, including attacking badgers. It's no wonder that a festival as famous as Glastonbury wants to distance themselves from that kind of illegal behaviour.
 

Kipper's Dick

Well-Known Member
Joined
29 November 2020
Messages
60
The Mendip Hunt have a reputation for breaking the law, including attacking badgers. It's no wonder that a festival as famous as Glastonbury wants to distance themselves from that kind of illegal behaviour.
And if this is the information that Glastonbury are basing their decision on, then that is understandable. Though the article didn't make that clear. Quote: 'Glastonbury Festival is absolutely not pro-hunting, and we do not - and would not - donate directly to any hunts'. Note the 'any'. Which proves my earlier assertion that the future for trail-hunting is going to be such an uphill struggle when bad (and illegal) behaviour tarnishes the reputation of law-abiding trail-hunts.
 

Tiddlypom

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 July 2013
Messages
14,251
Location
In between the Midlands and the North
Looks like Spider was not the first known feline casualty of the High Peak Hunt. Going back a few years to 2006, they killed another cat that had the effrontery to stay sitting at the side of the road as hounds were out on in exercise. This happened not far from where Spider was killed.

https://www.wildlifeguardian.co.uk/...T-GqFUfin3OXko5B-2dBTtGyj8yiBYW9Cser-GMOyLTSs

Members of the High Peak Hunt had been riding through Sheldon near Bakewell when the pack of around 40 hounds attacked the animal after spotting it by the side of the road.

Bob Graham, joint master of the hunt, said some of the younger hounds ran to the cat before the other dogs followed – eventually killing the pet – during the early morning ride through the village.

He said: “We are all deeply shocked and saddened that something like this has happened – it is not something I have seen before in all my years with the hunt.

“Normally a cat will run away as soon as it sees or hears us coming, but this one stayed sat at the side of the road.
 

ycbm

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 January 2015
Messages
33,558
I'm not sure that this conversation is productive, Palo. My main point was that (to me) there is a big difference between hunting for survival and hunting for sport. It makes me sick to see someone take pleasure out of harming an animal - that is just twisted and derranged.

The majority of the UK public are against fox hunting - to most UK residents it is not culturally important, but distasteful and something we'd rather put in the past - hence the reason it was banned a long time ago.
I don't agree with all you write, (and it certainly isn't about money these days) but I have a big problem with comparing modern European hunting for sport with the origins of hunting for sport in indigenous people.

It's my understanding that the origin of hunting for sport will have been a practice for the real thing by the inexperienced, and then a test of courage and skill which would have enhanced the successful hunters chances of mating with a female and carrying on his genes.

While I have come across a great deal of such peacock-tail twitching among male hunt followers over the years, I don't accept that it is a valid reason to hunt an animal for sport in 2st century Europe.



NB by origins, I don't mean any form of hunting which is able to be studied in the current day.
 
Last edited:

palo1

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 July 2012
Messages
2,033
I don't agree with all you write, (and it certainly isn't about money these days) but I have a big problem with comparing modern European hunting for sport with the origins of hunting for sport in indigenous people.

Is my understanding that the origin of hunting for sport will have been a practice for the real thing by the inexperienced, and then a test of courage and skill which would have enhanced the successful hunters chances of mating with a female and carrying on his genes.

While I have come across a great deal of such peacock-tail twitching among male hunt followers over the years, I don't accept that it is a valid reason to hunt an animal for sport in 2st century Europe.
.
Sorry ycbm you are wrong; recreational/sport hunting exists in indigenous communities alongside but also separately and differently to subsistence hunting though the two have a number of cross-over activities too. Recreational hunting is recognised and valued in it's own way in most cultures where this has been discussed and studied.
 

ycbm

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 January 2015
Messages
33,558
I have just done an NB to cover the nit I knew you were about to pick, Palo.


The fact that there are non-"westernised" tribes hunting animals for fun does not in any way, in my view, justify westernised societies doing the same.

But if we are going to continue the debate about history and culture, do you support bull fighting, the systematic torture of a bull until it dies, for the entertainment of a crowd? It's an important part of the culture of Spain and Portugal for many people.
 

Blazingsaddles

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 May 2018
Messages
1,878
As a previous owner of Lurchers and whippets of over 25 years, I never got any pleasure from seeing them chase a fellow animal. I still don’t understand how anyone can. Fortunately, if they did chase and kill a wild furry (very rarely) death came quickly. Still saddened me though.
 

Miss_Millie

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 August 2020
Messages
113
I have just done an NB to cover the nit I knew you were about to pick, Palo.


The fact that there are non-"westernised" tribes hunting animals for fun does not in any way, in my view, justify westernised societies doing the same.

But if we are going to continue the debate about history and culture, do you support bull fighting, the systematic torture of a bull until it dies, for the entertainment of a crowd? It's an important part of the culture of Spain and Portugal for many people.
Thanks ycbm, I appreciate your input on the subject (on this post and above)

When I talk of the money/priviledge aspect in the UK, I am referring to hush money used to pay off people who's pets are killed so they don't spill the beans (this has supposedly happened on several occasions), hunts saying they compensate farmers when their livestock are killed or crops are destroyed. It just seems like a very backwards and priviledged attitude to think 'if we eff anything up then we'll just pay people off, it's nothing to us, so let's just do what we like because there are no consequences/we don't care if innocent people are hurt along the way.'

No to mention that I feel, given how many people have blantantly been caught hunting fox since the ban and not prosecuted, despite breaking the law, there is definitely priviledge at play there, and class/wealth/race are undoubtedly part of the reason for that. I know that not everyone who hunts is wealthy, but being able to afford to keep a horse is definitely a priviledge.

I think that bull fighting is a very good 'sport' to bring up. It has been around for thousands of years, and is probably seen as a 'tradition' by many, but that does not make it right. Animal welfare in Spain is very far behind Britain, but I feel quite confident that it can't last in this day and age.
 
Top