Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Clodagh]

I stopped hunting after the ban. I do think bloodhounds might be fun but the drag hounds packs seem to have a death wish on themselves and their horses.

 

[palo1]

But when it causes so many problems in the countryside and animals are being hunted and killed illegally, whether intentionally or not, is it justifiable to continue it just for the fun of those that participate if it is harmful to others? Doing things for fun is fine if it isn’t to the detriment of others - I’m not sure that is the case with hunting.

The amount of 'trouble' that is genuinely caused by hunting is actually pretty small - it is impossible to put a number on 'nuisance' incidents but if you start doing that you may also have to calculate, to be perfectly reasonable, the nuisance value also of other things in the countryside that are legal: dog walkers, irresponsibly parked cars, fun runs, Tractor Rallies, fun rides, motor cross bikes, mountain biking and road biking groups, anti-social placing of muck heaps/muck spreading, litter, sheep worrying, cat chasing etc etc. On average there are about 14,000 hunts conducted by trail hunts (that does include the relatively small number of drag hounds and blood hounds though) every year. Average convictions for criminality re: trail hunting (ie illegal acts) is tiny. It is about 0.2% (average convictions per year since the ban =33, 33 as a percentage of annual hunts = 0.2%). I know that antis will say that many, many hunts break the law - that they all do even BUT in this country that isn't the way the law works. Anti propaganda comes from a few individuals, relates to few incidents and is repeated many many times over. Even a small percentage of criminality is not great tbh but the Hunting Act is a dire piece of legislation that lays the way open to all sorts of interpretation, lack of clarity etc etc ON BOTH SIDES.

Hunts are invited (or accept access requests) by the landowner and the skills and knowledge involved in hunting is seen as a significant and important thing by many, many people including conservationists and those interested in hounds, horses and landscape. Conservationists are certainly NOT all anti-hunting, nor are welfare experts such as vets -in relation to the impact on wildlife of hounds moving around or on the horses or hounds involved in trailhunting. Opinion, educated and professional opinion in many areas is divided on hunting. It is notable how many equestrians competing at the top level in all disciplines support trail hunting and acknowledge it's contribution to horse sport and related skills. That is relevant to readers/posters here at the very least. Not all of these people are ignorant, bloodthirsty law breakers - they are respectable, thoughtful individuals who, on balance are happy to publicly support trail-hunting. For reference, you could look at the Christmas issue of this years H&H where a great many unexpected people include Boxing day meets on their Christmas activities.

English Foxhounds are entirely unique and are viewed by some as incredibly precious as a breed and type of dog. Some of their bloodlines go back, in England to the 8th Century and the time of Charlemagne. For some folk, globally, the nose of the English Foxhound is the ultimate in the scent hunting dog world and that is also considered important and too precious to lose. If you take away the well known dress of the English hunt which shouts 'privelage', 'class' and other slightly worrying things it is undoubtedly one of the most egalitarian activities you can be involved in; women have never been stereotyped or limited in their ambitions on horse or with hounds on the hunting field and these days the Master (top person) may be a plumber or a Lord of any gender notation, any colour, any religion and any physicality. The link to community and specific country is also kind of significant.

For some, the point of hunting will always be about the riding and that is great fun but it is not, nor ever really has been the core of hunting's significance which has always been about hounds and their scenting/hunting abilities. They are unique and a huntsman who can produce a fine working pack is a very skilled and knowledgeable craftsman. For me, all those things are really important - I have said so a number of times on this thread.

ETA - The High Peak Hunt (cat killing and hounds rioting on calf incident) are looking for a new huntsman. This hasn't been widely publicised yet and the antis are well aware of it yet would never acknowledge that. In spite of what people love to say about hunting there is a genuine code of conduct and sense of anger when these things happen but it is fashionable to hate hunting above all other things that happen in the countryside...

 

[TGM]

the drag hounds packs seem to have a death wish on themselves and their horses.

I think the drag hound packs vary, I know our most local one certainly has that reputation, but another drag pack that my daughter travelled to hunt with once was definitely more sane!

 

[Tiddlypom]

ETA - The High Peak Hunt (cat killing and hounds rioting on calf incident) are looking for a new huntsman. This hasn't been widely publicised yet and the antis are well aware of it yet would never acknowledge that. In spite of what people love to say about hunting there is a genuine code of conduct and sense of anger when these things happen but it is fashionable to hate hunting above all other things that happen in the countryside...

https://www.facebook.com/124213577748977/posts/1538051829698471

Palo, you really have convinced yourself that most trail hunting is legal, even after the release of the Hunting Office webinars. I, and many others, do not.

Of course naughty hunting peeps will be encouraging you and your ilk to carry on believing this.

ETA It’s interesting that the disruption caused to through traffic on a hunting day by my local pack has decreased considerably since they went legit. Rather fewer quad bikes zooming up and down the roads, for one.

 

[Fred66]

https://www.facebook.com/124213577748977/posts/1538051829698471

Palo, you really have convinced yourself that most trail hunting is legal, even after the release of the Hunting Office webinars. I, and many others, do not.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but opinions don’t equal fact.
I tend to treat as I find and since the ban I find that hunting folks are trying their best to follow the law. Are there some hunts that deliberately break the law then yes, probably (especially immediately after the ban) but more and more do not. Just as the few voices on that now infamous webinar supporting ways to circumvent the law are not representative of the many that do not advocate breaking the law.
Whilst I might believe this is a bad law and should be overturned I will continue to follow the law as it is written.
What a shame that antis are not similarly inclined.

 

[ester]

I think the drag hound packs vary, I know our most local one certainly has that reputation, but another drag pack that my daughter travelled to hunt with once was definitely more sane!

I'd go out with the cambridge and I'm a scaredy cat.

 

[palo1]

https://www.facebook.com/124213577748977/posts/1538051829698471

Palo, you really have convinced yourself that most trail hunting is legal, even after the release of the Hunting Office webinars. I, and many others, do not.

Of course naughty hunting peeps will be encouraging you and your ilk to carry on believing this.

ETA It’s interesting that the disruption caused to through traffic on a hunting day by my local pack has decreased considerably since they went legit. Rather fewer quad bikes zooming up and down the roads, for one.

Well @Tiddlypom, I do trailhunt on a regular basis so my opinion is based on my experience and that of many other people that I meet and speak openly with. I am not ignorant nor naive and my experience is as valid as yours. We see things differently. At the same time as telling me that I have 'convinced' myself that most trail hunting is legal, you acknowledge that your local pack is 'legit'... It is just typical of the anti mentality that when things go wrong, as with the High Peak, and are then dealt with there is no positive posting about that nor acceptance that the right action has been taken. There is no acknowledgement from the anti-hunt lobby that generally speaking, professional conservation, ecology and animal welfare opinions on hunting are divided. There is no acknowledgement from the anti-hunt lobby that there is skill in hunting hounds, nor specific knowledge of the countryside gained through hunting activities even though this is a widely understood facet of hunting in conservation, ecology and animal welfare discussion; nor is there any understanding of the 'value' of our hounds - I get that people feel these things may be consigned to the history books if they are no longer 'relevant' but at the same time there has been a huge public reluctance to see the end of rare breeds of horse (Shire horses, Suffolk punches etc) and other domesticated, purpose bred animals. At the current time, many of those breeds are enjoying considerable support in fact for aspects of their breeding which are newly useful (as conservation grazers, logging animals in sensitive areas).

For me, if only for hounds alone, banning hunting would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. Ironically too, increasing efforts are being made to save traditional hunting cultures globally as they are recognised as valuable in a number of ways. I expect some anti-hunt people would assert that our form of hunting is not 'traditional' enough or fails to act to support subsistence yet this entirely dismisses aspects of culture and our relationship with nature which is definately threatened at the moment. This kind of 'deculturing' by one group acted on another is pretty dangerous and politically 'difficult'. It is possibly an un-thought of prejudice.

 

[palo1]

https://www.facebook.com/124213577748977/posts/1538051829698471

Palo, you really have convinced yourself that most trail hunting is legal, even after the release of the Hunting Office webinars. I, and many others, do not.

Of course naughty hunting peeps will be encouraging you and your ilk to carry on believing this.

ETA It’s interesting that the disruption caused to through traffic on a hunting day by my local pack has decreased considerably since they went legit. Rather fewer quad bikes zooming up and down the roads, for one.

@Tiddlypom - can I ask you why you think people support trail hunting? (where they do) I see a great many equine and other professionals that do support trail hunting - including for example Carl Hester and various vets, doctors, nurses, teachers etc. How do you think they see trail hunting? Why do you think so many people enjoy trail hunting if, as you say, it is dodgy? Are we all stupid/naive/bloodthirsty/uncaring? This is often something I want to ask in fact so I am genuinely interested in your opinion and views

 

[Tiddlypom]

At the same time as telling me that I have 'convinced' myself that most trail hunting is legal, you acknowledge that your local pack is 'legit'...

As I have posted before, it is legit now, but it wasn’t up until fairly recently, and it still wouldn’t be if the antis hadn't muscled in. It still insisted that it was trail hunting, even when it clearly wasn’t. The battle between the two sides was played out here in the countryside, it was certainly disruptive and very unpleasant to us residents, and it also tied up valuable police resources for day after day.

It was pressure from a major landowner, fed up of the bad publicity, that forced the switch to legit.

Eyeopener? For sure.

@Tiddlypom - can I ask you why you think people support trail hunting? (where they do) I see a great many equine and other professionals that do support trail hunting - including for example Carl Hester and various vets, doctors, nurses, teachers etc. How do you think they see trail hunting? Why do you think so many people enjoy trail hunting if, as you say, it is dodgy? Are we all stupid/naive/bloodthirsty/uncaring? This is often something I want to ask in fact so I am genuinely interested in your opinion and views

Genuine trail hunting, if there is any, yes. Fox hunting masquerading-as-trail hunting, no.

You are happy to dismiss the hunting webinars, hosted not by some dodgy types mouthing off in a pub but by the great and good of your regulating body, as small beans. Others are not.

As I have said many times before, any genuine legal trail packs need to distance themselves from the naughty practices, and start up anew.

 

[palo1]

As I have posted before, it is legit now, but it wasn’t up until fairly recently, and it still wouldn’t be if the antis hadn't muscled in. It still insisted that it was trail hunting, even when it clearly wasn’t. The battle between the two sides was played out here in the countryside, it was certainly disruptive and very unpleasant to us residents, and it also tied up valuable police resources for day after day.

It was pressure from a major landowner, fed up of the bad publicity, that forced the switch to legit.

Eyeopener? For sure.

Genuine trail hunting, if there is any, yes. Fox hunting masquerading-as-trail hunting, no.

You are happy to dismiss the hunting webinars, hosted not by some dodgy types mouthing off in a pub but by the great and good of your regulating body, as small beans. Others are not.

As I have said many times before, any genuine legal trail packs need to distance themselves from the naughty practices, and start up anew.

Hi @Tiddlypom - I haven't actually dismissed the hunting webinars as small beans anywhere; I think we are all waiting to see how that plays out...and there are a large number of people involved with hunting that have expressed real disquiet about this incident; I think you probably follow some of those commentators including This is Hunting Uk. I am sorry to go back a bit but you haven't said why you think people do support trail hunting -whether legit/supposedly legit but dodgy or even just downright dodgy - it baffles me a bit how all these people have either closed their eyes and ears to dodgy/illegal trailhunting or they are all stupid. What do you think the reasons for people following hunting are?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Palo, I‘m the wrong person to ask why people support trail hunting, as I have never trail hunted .

All my hunting was well before the ban. I then couldn’t then afford to both hunt and compete, and I decided that competing was more important to me - heresy, I know.

You may be better asking someone more up to date than me.

 

[ycbm]

What do you think the reasons for people following hunting are?

I will answer for what I know of Cheshire and parts of Derbyshire and Staffordshire. Among others, but the first is way up the list, probably top.

1. Because they want to ride in company over land they would have no other access to, especially winter access.

2. Because being a member of a Hunt often comes with a built in social life.

3. Because it gives them a focus for their winter riding.

 

[Clodagh]

I will answer for what I know of Cheshire and parts of Derbyshire and Staffordshire. Among others, but the first is way up the list, probably top.

1. Because they want to ride in company over land they would have no other access to, especially winter access.

2. Because being a member of a Hunt often comes with a built in social life.

3. Because it gives them a focus for their winter riding.

Now mine was primarily to watch hound work and to cross the country in a way that you can see hound work.
I agree most people don't care if there is a hound there or not.

 

[palo1]

But why do antis think people support hunting?

 

[Clodagh]

But why do antis think people support hunting?

Because we are bloodthirsty killers?

 

[ycbm]

But why do antis think people support hunting?

I don't understand your question, I don't think. Do you mean sabs? If you mean antis, I'm a non radical anti and I've already answered in post 882, where all 3 apply.

Radical antis and sabs make their views clear on social media, don't they? I'm not sure we have m/any on the forum.
.

 

[palo1]

Because we are bloodthirsty killers?

I wish I could find the right emoticon for this...!! Are we all bloodthirsty killers though? Is there literally no other reason that anyone, including olympic level equestrians, vets, doctors, nurses, plumbers, teachers, insurance agents, milkmen, scientists etc want to do this..? I guess you are right...we must all be bloodthirsty killers who are prepared to risk our professional and personal reputations as well as our privacy for the sake of a few dodgy days out in the winter weather...

 

[palo1]

I don't understand your question, I don't think. Do you mean sabs? If you mean antis, I'm a non radical anti and I've already answered in post 882, where all 3 apply.

Radical antis and sabs make their views clear on social media, don't they? I'm not sure we have m/any on the forum.
.

Sorry, I guess, possibly I do mean more extreme antis...There are certainly opinions expressed on here that suggest that the only reason anyone would want to trail hunt is to break the law and because they are full of 'bloodlust' - whatever that is!! I was just trying to work out what that position was and how it was rationalised considering the very varied group of people who publicly support trail hunting.

 

[Tiddlypom]

There are certainly opinions expressed on here that suggest that the only reason anyone would want to trail hunt is to break the law and because they are full of 'bloodlust' - whatever that is!!

Can you find any posts on here that suggest that?

Folk on here tend to support legal trail hunting (but are dubious as to how much trail hunting is legal), but they condemn illegal fox hunting.

 

[palo1]

There are several posts that sound alarmingly like real, back to basics Sabs to me...

Post 9: They just like killing things. Pure and simple. Also some of them are not good enough riders for drag hunting as its faster and has less stopping and starting and hanging around than fox hunting.

Post 21 (liked by 11 readers) Fox hunting is not about controlling fox numbers. Its about the thrill of the chase. Its about a day out riding across the countryside and killing something. Lets be honest here.
Post 187: Sorry but I do not need to read a report to know that hunting with hounds is predominantly for the sport and fun of chasing a live animal (liked by 10 readers)

Posts including 376 from a poster that suddenly joined the discussion with some rather uninformed but extreme views – posts too many to list...
Post 691 If they aren't driven by bloodlust, why do they attack livestock, cats and even pet dogs?

Post 810 Which is why it is alarming and disturbing when you see hunters getting a THRILL out of seeing an animal in fear, being torn to shreds. Surely that type of person would also beat their wife and hit their kids?

And others too...

 

[Sandstone1]

As you have quoted some of my posts I will reply. I am not a sab. I have in the past been hunting pre ban. It was not for me. I am anti illegal fox hunting. Not trail hunting. Sadly a lot of trail hunting is actually fox hunting. Thats a fact like it or not. I have no problem with trail hunting but mostly it is just a smokescreen for fox hunting. Most people know this.
Fox hunting is illegal and if you go fox hunting there can be no other excuse than you just like killing things.
You keep on and on. Going round in circles. The fact is like it or not fox hunting is illegal, the ban will never be overturned and if you think it will you are deluded. Hunts that do continue to hunt fox are coming under close scrutiny now and do themselves no favours by the way they behave. By the way its not a offence to be anti hunting! It is a offence to hunt foxes!!!!
It is against the law. The way you go on its as if you think its the other way round.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Palo, those quotes you found are referring to fox/hare/stag hunting, not trail hunting. And just because some people find fox hunting abhorrent does not necessarily mean that they are active sabs.

So where are the posts condemning genuine legal trail hunting?

I didn’t bother to look for the obviously troll posts.

They just like killing things. Pure and simple. Also some of them are not good enough riders for drag hunting as its faster and has less stopping and starting and hanging around than fox hunting.

Fox hunting is not about controlling fox numbers. Its about the thrill of the chase. Its about a day out riding across the countryside and killing something. Lets be honest here.

Sorry but I do not need to read a report to know that hunting with hounds is predominantly for the sport and fun of chasing a live animal. Call it what you like, make as many reasons as as you like. The majority of people are against hunting. I do not need a study to tell me about the disruption and distress hunting causes. I have seen the state of other animals after the hunt passes through, the damage they do to land, not to mention once again that it is illegal but continues to take place.

I think the 'born as hunters' is a silly comparison tbh.

The only hunters I have respect for are indiginous peoples - their entire way of living is about treading as lightly as possible on the earth. They hunt to survive and have complete respect for the landscape and the animals they kill for sustenance. They live outside of the capitalist, consumer-driven world that the rest of us live in.

Those who hunt fox and stag on the other hand, also drive around is their gass-guzzling 4x4s, tear up the landscape, and going by the video above, couldn't give an eff whether or not the animal is distressed, in pain, suffering. Then probably go home to their posh houses and have champagne in the bath!

When it comes to meat eaters being hypocrites/having double standards, that is fair enough to say, but there is some cognative dissonance at play there. If most people had to kill an animal before they ate it, they probably wouldn't do it, because most people love animals and have empathy for them.

Which is why it is alarming and disturbing when you see hunters getting a THRILL out of seeing an animal in fear, being torn to shreds. Surely that type of person would also beat their wife and hit their kids?

It grosses me out on so many levels.

 

[Sandstone1]

I will put it as clearly as I can... 1 I am not a sab. 2 I am not against genuine trail or drag hunting 3 I am against illegal fox hunting.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I will put it as clearly as I can... 1 I am not a sab. 2 I am not against genuine trail or drag hunting 3 I am against illegal fox hunting.

I’ve always read your posts as meaning exactly that, Sandstone .

 

[BeckyFlowers]

I will put it as clearly as I can... 1 I am not a sab. 2 I am not against genuine trail or drag hunting 3 I am against illegal fox hunting.

Same!

 

[Sandstone1]

I’ve always read your posts as meaning exactly that, Sandstone .

Thank you, Im pretty angry right now, to be honest.

 

[Sandstone1]

There are several posts that sound alarmingly like real, back to basics Sabs to me...

Post 9: They just like killing things. Pure and simple. Also some of them are not good enough riders for drag hunting as its faster and has less stopping and starting and hanging around than fox hunting.

Post 21 (liked by 11 readers) Fox hunting is not about controlling fox numbers. Its about the thrill of the chase. Its about a day out riding across the countryside and killing something. Lets be honest here.
Post 187: Sorry but I do not need to read a report to know that hunting with hounds is predominantly for the sport and fun of chasing a live animal (liked by 10 readers)

Posts including 376 from a poster that suddenly joined the discussion with some rather uninformed but extreme views – posts too many to list...
Post 691 If they aren't driven by bloodlust, why do they attack livestock, cats and even pet dogs?

Post 810 Which is why it is alarming and disturbing when you see hunters getting a THRILL out of seeing an animal in fear, being torn to shreds. Surely that type of person would also beat their wife and hit their kids?

And others too...

Since when is being against a illegal activity " alarming " I fully stand by the posts you quoted. I am anti illegal fox hunting but that does not make me a sab. I am not against genuine trail or drag hunting. You cant seem to get it in to your head. I am pretty angry about being called a sab. Fox hunting is illegal, Get used to it!

 

[Orangehorse]

I didn't realise that @Clodagh! (about needing to cull hedge-pigs). I have to say that perfectly demonstrates that nuance and facts are very much needed in any discussion. We do have hedgehogs here and also badgers but increasingly rare curlews and other ground nesters.

I think the hedgehogs were removed, not killed.

 

[Sandstone1]

Palo1, Please could you try to get it in to your head once and for all. Trail hunting follows a pre set trail, Clue is in the name here TRAIL, Fox hunting hunts and kills foxes. This is illegal and has been for years. Now we know that often fox hunting does go on under the guise of trail hunting argue all you like on this but Im sorry it does go on.
Now for the bit you seem to find difficult to grasp, I will make it as simple as I can for you because you really seem to struggle with this bit. I am not against trail hunting, Ok so far? I am against fox hunting, which is illegal and anyone who does this on purpose is breaking the law. I am only against trail hunting when it is used as a excuse to hunt foxes and try and get round the law. I am not against proper trail or drag hunting. Got that?
You seem to think being against hunting foxes is something to be ashamed of! That does not make me a sab or whatever you want to call me. I do think people who go fox hunting do so because they like killing things, why else go? Note here that I said FOX, not TRAIL.
You keep on and on going round in circles on this subject, if you are going to continue to do so at least get your facts straight please.

 

[palo1]

Palo1, Please could you try to get it in to your head once and for all. Trail hunting follows a pre set trail, Clue is in the name here TRAIL, Fox hunting hunts and kills foxes. This is illegal and has been for years. Now we know that often fox hunting does go on under the guise of trail hunting argue all you like on this but Im sorry it does go on.
Now for the bit you seem to find difficult to grasp, I will make it as simple as I can for you because you really seem to struggle with this bit. I am not against trail hunting, Ok so far? I am against fox hunting, which is illegal and anyone who does this on purpose is breaking the law. I am only against trail hunting when it is used as a excuse to hunt foxes and try and get round the law. I am not against proper trail or drag hunting. Got that?
You seem to think being against hunting foxes is something to be ashamed of! That does not make me a sab or whatever you want to call me. I do think people who go fox hunting do so because they like killing things, why else go? Note here that I said FOX, not TRAIL.
You keep on and on going round in circles on this subject, if you are going to continue to do so at least get your facts straight please.

@Sandstone1 - I have never expressed support for illegal hunting and this thread has been about trail hunting. We have almost entirely opposing views on this; you believe that almost all trailhunting is fox-hunting; I believe that this is not so. YI understand your anger - I too have felt absolutely misrepresented on this thread. I was careful not to identify the posters on the quotes I pulled up because I didn't feel it necessary to single out individuals but you have responded to my post directly. I don't know you at all in person (as far as I know!) but the language you have used about hunting (trail hunting and illegal hunting) is absolutely idiomatic of the language of more extreme antis/sabs. That is the reason I have interpreted your posts as such and responded to @ycbm's query as to whether I felt any posts on this thread might come from that direction. I have never called anyone posting here, directly or personally 'a sab' in fact. Throughout the discussion you just haven't engaged in any of the issues other than to regularly re-iterate that hunting is all about 'the thrill of killing' etc etc. That doesn't to me suggest a particularly informed or balanced view of trail hunting or in fact, pre-ban fox hunting but thankfully we live in a free country where we can all express our opinion...

I am not deluded about the Hunting Act nor do I find it difficult to 'grasp' the arguments involved in the discussion on this thread or about hunting matters more widely. I am certainly not purely informed by those that support hunting - I am aware of many of the contradictions and different approaches to the subject. It is something I am really interested in for a number of reasons.