Hunting is in a spot of bother

[ycbm]

Artificials were provided as a place for foxes to live in countries where perhaps such places would not naturally occur.

Clodagh I'm really sorry, I'm not having a go at you personally, but I think there's a bit missing off the end of your sentence. The full sentence should probably read

"Artificials were provided as a place for foxes to live in countries where perhaps such places would not naturally occur, so that they could then be hunted."

Claims by some people (not you) that fox hunting was only ever about vermin control are exposed as a lie by the use of artificial earths to encourage foxes to live in areas which people wanted to enjoy hunting.
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[Tiddlypom]

This is a deliberately fuzzy glimpse of the glowing 4 page spread on the East Essex Hunt in Horse and Hound magazine's last but one edition of 16/12/21.

Subtitled 'Hard work, enthusiasm and a great country for hounds mean the East Essex punches above its weight'.

H&H really does need to comment, not on this thread but on their website.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Whichever way you look at it, it's sickening.

If landowners don't want foxes on their land, and use that as an excuse for a hooley round the countryside in order to kill them, then why encourage the foxes to set up home on their land in the first place.

One could be forgiven for thinking they get pleasure from killing.

I completely agree. I didn't even know that the artificial mounds were a thing, how disturbing. It's akin to saying you don't want rats in your stables and then setting up a little nesting box with food in it, only to have your dogs drag them out and kill them as soon as they find the cosy house you made for them. How totally messed up.

 

[palo1]

I completely agree. I didn't even know that the artificial mounds were a thing, how disturbing. It's akin to saying you don't want rats in your stables and then setting up a little nesting box with food in it, only to have your dogs drag them out and kill them as soon as they find the cosy house you made for them. How totally messed up.

Well yes, except that that would be legal and in fact rats don't need any encouragement to set up home anywhere. Killing rats with dogs is considered entirely appropriate in fact but attacking them with a garden fork is not. Rats are killed in the most horrific ways actually with never a murmur but that is not the issue here.

 

[Sandstone1]

How can anyone justify this disgusting cruelty? Anyone connected to hunting should hang their heads in shame. All hunts should be disbanded now. This simply can not go on.

 

[palo1]

How can anyone justify this disgusting cruelty? Anyone connected to hunting should hang their heads in shame. All hunts should be disbanded now. This simply can not go on.

Who is or has justified this? This was done by individuals and at this point a hunt per se has not been involved in any formal way. Not all hunts should be disbanded though you are entitled to your opinion. There are many, many hunts that have done nothing wrong.

 

[Tiddlypom]

If the individual is the man as named by the sabs, then the hunt is very much implicated.

 

[Sandstone1]

Who is or has justified this? This was done by individuals and at this point a hunt per se has not been involved in any formal way. Not all hunts should be disbanded though you are entitled to your opinion. There are many, many hunts that have done nothing wrong.

That excuse is wearing thin now. The man filmed needs to go to jail. Trail hunting must now be banned as they cant be trusted.

 

[Fred66]

If the individual is the man as named by the sabs, then the hunt is very much implicated.

In what way are the hunt implicated? They have not sanctioned this (or do not appear to be), a member of a hunt has been shown to be acting in a cruel and abhorrent manner. Unless the hunt support this individual or attempt to excuse his behaviour then they are not responsible for his actions.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Are you aware of the individual's alleged identity, and of his connections to the hunt hierarchy?

 

[paddy555]

In what way are the hunt implicated? They have not sanctioned this (or do not appear to be), a member of a hunt has been shown to be acting in a cruel and abhorrent manner. Unless the hunt support this individual or attempt to excuse his behaviour then they are not responsible for his actions.

if he is one of the countrymen listed then he is basically one of the hunt staff who, by his actions, has brought the hunt into disrepute. I would expect them to keep their staff, paid or unpaid under control. In this case he had close family connections (presuming we have the right terrierman) and it would reasonable for the hunt masters to know what he got up to.

 

[Fred66]

Are you aware of the individual's alleged identity, and of his connections to the hunt hierarchy?

Just because someone holds an official role potentially of influence does not automatically mean that their actions are sanctioned. It is how the hunt responds that matters.

 

[ycbm]

Just because someone holds an official role potentially of influence does not automatically mean that their actions are sanctioned. It is how the hunt responds that matters.

That would have been right when the ban first came in. But after 16 years when illegal hunting continued while other hunts said nothing even though they knew, it will no longer pass muster.

I believe this is not routine behaviour, but a person would have to be closing their eyes very firmly not to see why sabs and the greater public think this is considered normal by people at the heart of hunting.
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[L&M]

Just because someone holds an official role potentially of influence does not automatically mean that their actions are sanctioned. It is how the hunt responds that matters.

Totally agree, Gary Thorpe, who is the huntsman for the East Essex, is an very active member/admin of a fb group called Tally ho (gone to ground), and although I am in no way implying he has anything to do with this, or condones the actions of these individuals, have found it interesting he has not yet commented on the incident.

 

[Ceriann]

I failed to avoid a small clip of this latest video on the news last night. I cannot fathom how any sane person could inflict such pain on another sentient being. It truly disturbs me. It’s time for hunting - trail or otherwise - to end. Anything that enables (and I’m not saying condones) this or any other form of animal abuse to continue should be stopped. If the minority can’t stop using the pretence of trail hunting etc to continue doing this sort of thing then end it all.

 

[Fred66]

I failed to avoid a small clip of this latest video on the news last night. I cannot fathom how any sane person could inflict such pain on another sentient being. It truly disturbs me. It’s time for hunting - trail or otherwise - to end. Anything that enables (and I’m not saying condones) this or any other form of animal abuse to continue should be stopped. If the minority can’t stop using the pretence of trail hunting etc to continue doing this sort of thing then end it all.

This has absolutely nothing to do with trail hunting. It is some sick individuals who happen to be part of a hunt that have committed this act. If you followed your logic then we would have no teachers, no doctors and no nurses etc (as all these professions have had individuals that have committed multiple atrocities). These were isolated incidents committed by individuals that should not reflect upon the rest of their profession, anymore than this mans actions should reflect upon anyone but himself.

 

[AmyMay]

Just because someone holds an official role potentially of influence does not automatically mean that their actions are sanctioned. It is how the hunt responds that matters.

In that case, let’s hope his wife sanctions him ?

 

[Ceriann]

This has absolutely nothing to do with trail hunting. It is some sick individuals who happen to be part of a hunt that have committed this act. If you followed your logic then we would have no teachers, no doctors and no nurses etc (as all these professions have had individuals that have committed multiple atrocities). These were isolated incidents committed by individuals that should not reflect upon the rest of their profession, anymore than this mans actions should reflect upon anyone but himself.

As you point out doctors, nurses and teachers are professionals - they deliver essential services to the public. You cannot compare this to trail hunts that deliver nothing more than a hobby or chosen leisure sport. It’s currently a front for continued cruelty and unacceptable practices. I live near a “trail” hunt that hunts, prosecuted for related offences. If you truly trail hunt, and don’t support such barbaric behaviour, surely you can see this cannot continue.

 

[Fred66]

As you point out doctors, nurses and teachers are professionals - they deliver essential services to the public. You cannot compare this to trail hunts that deliver nothing more than a hobby or chosen leisure sport. It’s currently a front for continued cruelty and unacceptable practices. I live near a “trail” hunt that hunts, prosecuted for related offences. If you truly trail hunt, and don’t support such barbaric behaviour, surely you can see this cannot continue.

You are missing the point, in all walks of life there are people who commit vile acts, this doesn’t automatically mean that all around should be tarred by the same brush.
It is simplistic and misguided to do so.

 

[Ceriann]

You are missing the point, in all walks of life there are people who commit vile acts, this doesn’t automatically mean that all around should be tarred by the same brush.
It is simplistic and misguided to do so.

I think you are missing the point. If you have to tar everyone with the same brush in this instance so be it if it helps stop such barbaric behaviour. Comparing trail hunting to the health service is misguided.

 

[Sandstone1]

How many times can things like this happen and excuses made?? Peoples pets killed, foxes hunted and killed by accident and down right barbaric cruelty? Its 2021 its got to stop. How anyone can excuse this is beyond me.

 

[palo1]

How many times can things like this happen and excuses made?? Peoples pets killed, foxes hunted and killed by accident and down right barbaric cruelty? Its 2021 its got to stop. How anyone can excuse this is beyond me.

No one is excusing it at all.

 

[ycbm]

This has absolutely nothing to do with trail hunting. It is some sick individuals who happen to be part of a hunt that have committed this act. If you followed your logic then we would have no teachers, no doctors and no nurses etc (as all these professions have had individuals that have committed multiple atrocities). These were isolated incidents committed by individuals that should not reflect upon the rest of their profession, anymore than this mans actions should reflect upon anyone but himself.

Doctors and nurses and teachers have not stood by and carried on their profession while while hospitals and schools in other areas break the law and they know it. Hunts of all flavours have done this with illegal hunting for the last 16 years.

It is unreasonable now, especially after this year's conviction and the hunting response to it, to expect Sabs and Mr and Mrs Average to believe any assertion that this behaviour is not representative of hunting.
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[Fred66]

I think you are missing the point. If you have to tar everyone with the same brush in this instance so be it if it helps stop such barbaric behaviour. Comparing trail hunting to the health service is misguided.

I wasn’t, I was stating that trying to connect actions of individuals in any sphere of life with the whole of that sphere is simplistic and lazy. The vast majority of the hunting community along with the vast majority of the rest of the population are appalled by the actions of this person.
Trying to justify banning trail hunting on the back of this is opportunistic.

 

[paddy555]

Just because someone holds an official role potentially of influence does not automatically mean that their actions are sanctioned. It is how the hunt responds that matters.

can you give me a link to their response please? I have googled but cannot find one. It was released by the sabs 20 hours ago so obviously they have come up with a response by now? Presuming they do condemn it of course.

 

[Ceriann]

I wasn’t, I was stating that trying to connect actions of individuals in any sphere of life with the whole of that sphere is simplistic and lazy. The vast majority of the hunting community along with the vast majority of the rest of the population are appalled by the actions of this person.
Trying to justify banning trail hunting on the back of this is opportunistic.

I think its representative of the wider public view. When you say the vast majority of the hunting community are appalled, the fact is most people no longer believe that and there is little to suggest they are wrong. In the face of systemic abuse of the rules within “legal” hunting I struggle to see why it should be allowed to continue. It is after all an occasional hobby, a bit of fun, the evolution of what was once (many moons ago) an acceptable pastime that is now no longer acceptable to the majority.

 

[palo1]

I think its representative of the wider public view. When you say the vast majority of the hunting community are appalled, the fact is most people no longer believe that and there is little to suggest they are wrong. In the face of systemic abuse of the rules within “legal” hunting I struggle to see why it should be allowed to continue. It is after all an occasional hobby, a bit of fun, the evolution of what was once (many moons ago) an acceptable pastime that is now no longer acceptable to the majority.

If any of what you say was true then all forms of hunting would have been consigned to the history books a very long time ago. It would have been easy to get shot of hunting communities and cultures and it would not be so incredibly divisive and difficult as it is; those are the indicators of something that is 'live' and that 'matters'. There is much you are failing to acknowledge or accept. However, there is NO justification for what was filmed in that video and I don't know any hunting person that would try to justify it. There may or may not be a response from the local hunt; it may not be appropriate to comment on what is now a police matter. This doesn't need to be another trial by social media as a real court should be dealing with it.

 

[Ceriann]

If any of what you say was true then all forms of hunting would have been consigned to the history books a very long time ago. It would have been easy to get shot of hunting communities and cultures and it would not be so incredibly divisive and difficult as it is; those are the indicators of something that is 'live' and that 'matters'. There is much you are failing to acknowledge or accept. However, there is NO justification for what was filmed in that video and I don't know any hunting person that would try to justify it. There may or may not be a response from the local hunt; it may not be appropriate to comment on what is now a police matter. This doesn't need to be another trial by social media as a real court should be dealing with it.

Hunting is a relic of a bygone era - if “legal” hunting cannot control the factions in their midst that don’t or won’t accept that there will be nothing difficult or divisive about this. You reference these cultures with pride - there is very little for these communities to be proud of in light of this latest issue (the latest in a long list). I do not suggest all trail hunters condone this behaviour but they do enable it. Animal abuse for sport or otherwise is socially unacceptable and abhorrent - there isn’t anything difficult about that.

 

[canteron]

Who is or has justified this? This was done by individuals and at this point a hunt per se has not been involved in any formal way. Not all hunts should be disbanded though you are entitled to your opinion. There are many, many hunts that have done nothing wrong.

The problem is Palo that the hunts have had a long time to get their house in order and get some effective governance over the rouge element - but have failed to do this.

Essentially, if they want to survive, they have to set up a serious system with effective controls (as long as hunts exists there will be people looking to abuse it in the name of sport), rather than having their leadership even hinting there are ways round the law.

Any ‘industry’ (and at its basic analysis it is just a minority sport) that is on the edge, either has to show good self governance, or face the consequence.

 

[BlackHorseRider]

Gary thorpe actually laid a trail today, what a coincidence