Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Fred66]

Many of you on here seem keen to see all forms of hunting banned, some of you purport to want this out of concern for animals. Can I ask those people how they will square the deaths of 10,000+ hounds with their consciences if they are successful?

 

[skinnydipper]

Many of you on here seem keen to see all forms of hunting banned, some of you purport to want this out of concern for animals. Can I ask those people how they will square the deaths of 10,000+ hounds with their consciences if they are successful?

You are asking the wrong people to examine their conscience. You should be asking the people who continued to breed and train dogs for something which was banned in 2004.

 

[Fred66]

You are asking the wrong people to examine their conscience. You should be asking the people who continued to breed and train dogs for something which was banned in 2004.

FFS - trail, drag and blood isn’t banned !!

 

[skinnydipper]

FFS - trail, drag and blood isn’t banned !!

Yes, I know that

My post still stands.

 

[planete]

If the foxhounds bred since 2004 had been trained to follow an artificial scent and the hunts had abided by the law the situation would be very different.

 

[skinnydipper]

If the foxhounds bred since 2004 had been trained to follow an artificial scent and the hunts had abided by the law the situation would be very different.

Thanks, planete.

I was just typing something very similar.

 

[Koweyka]

The deaths of any fox hounds lies squarely with the hunts, you kill them when they become slow, you kill them if they don’t show the kill instinct, hell you even kill them if they are too playful.

When the huntsman joins a new hunt they kill some existing hounds, so they can introduce their own.

Killing hounds is something hunts do on a regular basis.

If hunts had got their acts together and not continued to break the law for 17 YEARS and trained hounds on an artificial scent, not “mimicking” the behaviour of a fox by laying fox scent where foxes live then you wouldn’t be where you are now.

Why is this so difficult for you to grasp, you clung on to the fallacy that the ban would be overturned. It isn’t going to be yet all these puppies are bred, so don’t do the usual and try shift the blame on the anti’s because it just won’t wash.

 

[skinnydipper]

FFS - trail, drag and blood isn’t banned !!

I know more about dogs that I do about hunting so I will put this to you using dogs as an example.

Why would you train a dog to retrieve a ball and then expect it not to want to retrieve the ball that you threw?

You wouldn't would you? That would be stupid.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Many of you on here seem keen to see all forms of hunting banned, some of you purport to want this out of concern for animals. Can I ask those people how they will square the deaths of 10,000+ hounds with their consciences if they are successful?

IF there was a mass cull of hounds if all hunting was fully banned, then the responsibility for any cull of living hounds would lie entirely with the hunts who carried it out.

They could alternatively keep the current generation of hounds on living happily in kennels and being exercised daily, as they are in the summer when there is no hunting. The numbers of hounds would gradually reduce to zero due to loss by natural causes and ageing over a few years.

 

[Sandstone1]

Yet hunts are still breeding hounds to be trained to hollow fox sent..... So guess who's fault it would be if hounds had to be culled?
Dogs can be trained to any sent. What about medical detection dogs trained to sniff out Covid, cancer or warn of epileptic episodes?
Police dogs trained to find drugs, cash or dead bodies. Some dogs are trained to sniff out bed bugs.
And yet 17 years after fox hunting was banned you are still breeding and training dogs to follow fox sent...
I wonder why that is?
Dogs sense of smell is many thousand times better than ours and they are very capable of being trained to many types of sent but no, hunts in their wisdom continue to train to the sent of a animal its been illegal to hunt with hounds for years.
Also, hunts are well known to cull hounds for many reasons. too old, too ill or they simply do not want to hunt? They get a bullet to the head! So please do not try to guilt trip anti hunters for that one.

 

[ycbm]

But they are talking from a biased starting position based upon experience of a handful of hunts.

You have people on this thread from one end and side of the country to the other, many of whom have hunted.

Equally the negative press is coming from a tiny group of people. Chris Packham blamed a burnt out vehicle near his property on hunting people, despite the fact that there was absolutely no evidence and another burnt vehicle was found in the local area, but once the statement is out then there are those who believe no smoke without fire.

What is legal hunting doing to stop this misrepresentation?

Staying affiliated to an organisation which issues statements saying that the webinars have been taken out of context and used to harm them and that the convicted man has been hard done by.

Laying trails with fox pee, in fox country.

Saying it's OK to flout the spirit of the law after 17 years as long as the letter of the law provides an escape from prosecution.

And then complain about being sabbed ?

 

[Sandstone1]

You have people on this thread from one end and side of the country to the other, many of whom have hunted.




What is legal hunting doing to stop this misrepresentation?

Staying affiliated to an organisation which issues statements saying that the webinars have been taken out of context and used to harm them and that the convicted man has been hard done by.

Laying trails with fox pee, in fox country.

Saying it's OK to flout the spirit of the law after 17 years as long as the letter of the law provides an escape from prosecution.

And then complain about being sabbed ?

And constantly blame sabs for violence when hunt members have been filmed running down sabs, slashing tyres and only yesterday it appears put someone in hospital...

 

[paddy555]

Many of you on here seem keen to see all forms of hunting banned, some of you purport to want this out of concern for animals. Can I ask those people how they will square the deaths of 10,000+ hounds with their consciences if they are successful?

I read the above and thought how terrible, all those poor dogs who will probably have around 12 years on this planet will have to be killed. All that loss of life for such loved animals. Tears came to my eyes and my conscience certainly couldn't condone that. That was of course the reaction you would have expected from an animal lover to your post.

Then I started to wonder, why do hunts need so many, how long do these hounds live, what happens when they are too old to work, what happens to the ones who just don't the grade. So I googled. Then I realised the number would be quickly reduced and perhaps they didn't all end up with an armchair by the fire. I did wonder how they were killed. Calmly at the vets, sedative so they were out of it and went peacefully. Then another dose of reality kicked in and I realised being culled would not be any different to what would have happened anyway. Shot and thrown into the incinerator.


In evidence to the Burn’s Inquiry, the Countryside Alliance admitted 3,000 hounds are killed each year, the true figure is considerably higher. Detailed research by Protect Our Wild Animals states “that the numbers of hounds deliberately and unnecessarily killed by their own Hunts per annum in the UK is probably somewhere between 4,942 and 7,302.”

Hounds are simply an accessory to hunters and are shot or clubbed to death without a moments thought when the hunt no longer has a use for them. A hound can live to be fourteen quite easily, few hounds belonging to hunts live much beyond five or six years of age. Hounds as young as one are killed by hunts for not showing enough hunting instinct, bloodlust or just not being aesthetic.

 

[Chianti]

Many of you on here seem keen to see all forms of hunting banned, some of you purport to want this out of concern for animals. Can I ask those people how they will square the deaths of 10,000+ hounds with their consciences if they are successful?

I'm sorry but this comment might have more impact if we hadn't all seen photos of hunt staff shooting hounds which have presumably out lived their usefulness in some way. Dogs are intelligent animals and if they've been trained to follow a certain scent I don't see why they can't be retrained to follow a different one.

 

[Gallop_Away]

And constantly blame sabs for violence when hunt members have been filmed running down sabs, slashing tyres and only yesterday it appears put someone in hospital...

Why does it always need to be tit for tat? Can we not agree that violent sabs of which I could give you many examples of, and illegal hunts are both as bad as each other?
Violence to make a point is never ok. Regardless of which "side" you fall on.

There are hunts that works for and hunts that we're told it doesn't. I don't know if that's geography, or something else.

I suspect you're on a losing wicket until you find a way to put more distance between yourselves and the people hunting fox. With the MFA still insistent that the webinars were taken out of context, and people insisting that although the spirit of the law is perfectly clear, it's fine to allow foxes to be killed by hounds as long as the evidence to prosecute can't be obtained, that doesn't seem likely to happen soon.
.

If they can be sabbed these hunts can also be monitored.
I completely agree something needs to be done for legal trail backs to be distinguished from illegal hunts. Trail packs need to distance themselves to begin with but I don't think this will be enough on it's own. There is a huge issue with the public's perception of hunts and I think changing this view will be extremely difficult, especially after the last few years which have been a disaster for hunting all thanks to illegal hunts.
However sabs need to also be willing to work with hunts. If they demand to know the dates of our meets and be allowed to follow our activities they must also be willing to behave in a civilised manner and cease intimidation and violence.
Legitimate trail packs would have no reason to have any issue with monitors keeping an eye on things, but you can not expect them to leave themselves open to bullying and intimidation. Especially when they have made every effort to show they are hunting within the law.

 

[GSD Woman]

Are you aware of a conviction for incitement to hunt fox illegally which happened a couple of months back, following 2 webinars run by people at the very top of hunting and attended by, I think, hundreds of others?

Just got in from one of “our” hunts, a man was in his allotment with his two year old daughter, twenty hounds invaded looking for the fox they just chased and surrounded the little girl, dad owns land, he wasn’t told the hunt would be there, they trespassed, so one terrified little girl and an upset father and landowner.
But that’s not the fault of the hunt is it, can’t be seen to admit they aren’t squeaky clean and are breaking the law, trespassing and upsetting locals …oh no that just wouldn’t fit the narrative would it

That is horrid. But again, we all know that illegal hunting goes on in the UK. Being an American I would be tempted to carry a pistol to protect my property and family.

I had heard of the webinar where illegal foxhunting is discussed and encouraged. Again, that is illegal and disgusting. It should have been highly condemned by the legit hunts.

Off to work for me. I doubt I'll time to read more of this thread today.

 

[rextherobber]

In reply to @Fred66 #2777
I can think of a few ways in which hunt followers could change their attitude:
* Please keep the hounds off my property, away from my livestock, and off of roads. Please try to actually be with the hounds, arriving 30 minutes after they have left is useless, and in no way made up for by you sending someone around (the following day) to fix fences. If a hunt is genuinely trail hunting, how feasible is it that 10 -12 hounds would be rampaging around a village, in and out of gardens, crashing through fences etc. for a good 20 minutes before moving on. How does this happen, why does it happen, and how is it ever allowed to happen more than once? (Because it isn't a particularly rare occurrence)
* Instruct your car followers that they are still bound by the Highway Code, the fact that they are trying to follow the hunt in a vehicle doesn't make them above the law. Why are the car followers so aggressive towards other motorists? We are only trying to get to work/home with our shopping before the frozen stuff defrosts, why the need to drive us off the road?
*Why can hunts not tell local livestock owners where and roughly when, they will be in an area? They are following a pre laid trail, they know...don't they? (Don't give me the old excuse about not wanting to attract sabs, do you want to be tolerated by the local community or not?)
*If you are trail hunting, why can you not pass other people's livestock at a more sedate pace? The trail isn't going to get away, is it?
* Please stop this ridiculously selfish, inconsiderate parking of trailers and lorries. God help us if a fire engine ever needs to get through...
Not having a go, Fred66, but you did ask...

 

[paddy555]

- that is perfectly fair but you can't say that you have had issues with a hunt on your land or with your horses?

she might not have had but I have.

 

[paddy555]

this is a write up about the Lamerton last week.
So to our hunters this is one thing that you could do to improve matters. ie don't mark trails with fox scent.

LAMERTON HUNT KILL FOX – 19.01.22
(Watch the video here: https://fb.watch/aHIgOxlhy0/)
On Wednesday we paid a visit to the Lamerton Hunt who met at Boasley Cross near Bratton Clovelly, right outside a primary school.
You might remember the Lamerton as the hunt that is hosted by disgraced ex Attorney General, Geoffrey Cox, and who have been in court on a number of occasions for illegal hunting.
After the usual food and speeches, this gormless band of criminals headed east to draw the valley near Luddon. Sabs kept up with the huntsman and hounds as they started drawing the valley, and almost immediately a fox broke in front of huntsman David Lewis, who encouraged the hounds on using horn calls. Sabs ran in to cover the line of the fox with citronella and rate the hounds out of the valley. David pulled his hounds out, only to put them back in ahead of where the fox had been seen running, despite being told repeatedly that he was on film. You would think he'd have learned something from his numerous court appearances.
While hounds were scenting in the valley, David was drawn into a long and pointless conversation with sabs about how he didn't want the hounds to hunt the fox, he wanted them to hunt the trail. How the hounds would be able to tell the difference between a live fox and a fox based "trail" (if there was one) is beyond us. David then continued to encourage his hounds in the valley, drawing blank after blank, so we are confident that this one got away.
The hunt then moved off towards Boasley Wood and then Fursdon Wood, barely going into cry, despite "trails having been laid".
Moving off from Fursdon Wood and towards the valley near Mendea, hounds started speaking and moments later sabs spotted a fox running for his life, only a few seconds ahead of the hounds. Sabs rushed towards a patch of gorse where they could hear hounds in full cry. Meanwhile another team was with the huntsman and told him that the hounds were on a fox. He refused to call them off, once again claiming that they were on a "trail".
Sabs desperately tried to rate the hounds out of the gorse, but it was so impenetrable that they couldn't get close enough. Despite their very best efforts, the fox was killed before they could get there. See our video posted yesterday.
Sabs were able to retrieve the body of the fox, and returned him to our vehicle, where they were set upon by hunt thugs who tried to claim that the fox had been hit by a car. The video speaks for itself. Presumably afraid that sabs might gather yet more evidence of illegal activity, the hunt packed up early at 1:30. After seeing the hunt off, we were able to give this poor fox the respectful burial he should never have needed. Rest in peace little one

The fox was killed on land which is owned by a man who runs a music shop in Exeter called Project Music. We were told they had permission to be there. If you feel inclined, let them know what you think about their owner allowing a bunch of animal killing criminals to run riot on his land.
If the Lamerton thought our attention was elsewhere, they are sadly mistaken. If you have any information relating to the Lamerton, like any upcoming meets, please get in touch

 

[Fred66]

IF there was a mass cull of hounds if all hunting was fully banned, then the responsibility for any cull of living hounds would lie entirely with the hunts who carried it out.

They could alternatively keep the current generation of hounds on living happily in kennels and being exercised daily, as they are in the summer when there is no hunting. The numbers of hounds would gradually reduce to zero due to loss by natural causes and ageing over a few years.

If all forms of currently legal hunting are banned then the kennels would have to be closed. You would not be able to mass exercise them as the law is likely to be written in such a way as to try and avoid catching your average dog owner but stopping mass exercise. The hounds whilst generally hugely people friendly are hard to rehome in domestic settings and if the hunts themselves are illegal then who would do this?

 

[paddy555]

If all forms of currently legal hunting are banned then the kennels would have to be closed. You would not be able to mass exercise them as the law is likely to be written in such a way as to try and avoid catching your average dog owner but stopping mass exercise. The hounds whilst generally hugely people friendly are hard to rehome in domestic settings and if the hunts themselves are illegal then who would do this?

then cull them humanely. Large numbers are culled anyway. I expect some would end up being re homed. Many hunters and supporters are not your average 3 bed semi. A lot are on farms, small holdings, land and stables. Same way as puppy walking but the other end.

 

[ycbm]

then cull them humanely. Large numbers are culled anyway. I expect some would end up being re homed. Many hunters and supporters are not your average 3 bed semi. A lot are on farms, small holdings, land and stables. Same way as puppy walking but the other end.

I think it is humane to shoot a dog Paddy. I've never seen the attraction of a needle in the arm for a dog over a bullet in the brain from behind it.
.

 

[Sandstone1]

If all forms of currently legal hunting are banned then the kennels would have to be closed. You would not be able to mass exercise them as the law is likely to be written in such a way as to try and avoid catching your average dog owner but stopping mass exercise. The hounds whilst generally hugely people friendly are hard to rehome in domestic settings and if the hunts themselves are illegal then who would do this?

Then stop breeding them now.

 

[paddy555]

I think it is humane to shoot a dog Paddy. I've never seen the attraction of a needle in the arm for a dog over a bullet in the brain from behind it.
.

absolutely not getting into the shoot them or inject them argument again. Up to everyone to do what they believe to be best.
My dogs and cats have always been PTS by injection by the vet. . Everyone has gone quietly so I have nothing but praise for that method. I have never had one shot so I cannot comment.

 

[ycbm]

* Instruct your car followers that they are still bound by the Highway Code, the fact that they are trying to follow the hunt in a vehicle doesn't make them above the law.

* Please stop this ridiculously selfish, inconsiderate parking of trailers and lorries. God help us if a fire engine ever needs to get through...
Not having a go, Fred66, but you did ask...

Where roughly are you Rex. The last time I wrote something like this (having many times been part of large groups with many parking inconsiderately and often illegally in Cheshire) I was told that other hunts usually meet and park on private land.

Is Cheshire the only county this goes on in, or are you talking about different hunts?

I also recall someone (Palo? Apologies if it wasn't you) saying there was no problem with foot followers blocking country lanes because they came back and moved their cars as soon as they were told there was a problem. ?

 

[skinnydipper]

Then stop breeding them now.

No, they can't do that. That would require basic skills in forward planning.

 

[rextherobber]

Where roughly are you Rex. The last time I wrote something like this (having many times been part of large groups with many parking in considerately and sometimes illegally in Cheshire) I was told that other hunts usually meet and park on private land.

Is Cheshire the only county this goes on in, or are you talking about different hunts?

I also recall someone (Palo? Apologies if it wasn't you) saying there was no problem with foot followers blocking country lanes because they came back and moved their cars as soon as they were told there was a problem. ?

I'm in the south of the UK, so definitely a different hunt.

 

[Fred66]

And constantly blame sabs for violence when hunt members have been filmed running down sabs, slashing tyres and only yesterday it appears put someone in hospital...

You by your own admission don’t hunt, don’t monitor and don’t sab. So you have absolutely no first hand knowledge of these events.

Obviously there is footage of a sab being hit by a horse last week, however the rider that caught him does look unsighted and it does look like an unfortunate accident. Is there evidence of tyre slashing out there or of what happened yesterday?

There are hunt members who have been assaulted had property damaged (including brake lines cut) and at least one who lost his life to hunt monitors/saboteurs.

So yes I blame sabs for initiating violence, as this is what I have experienced. I would acknowledge that there are good and bad on both sides but the level of provocation offered by sabs is something else.

 

[Sandstone1]

You by your own admission don’t hunt, don’t monitor and don’t sab. So you have absolutely no first hand knowledge of these event.

Obviously there is footage of a sab being hit by a horse last week, however the rider that caught him does look unsighted and it does look like an unfortunate accident. Is there evidence of tyre slashing out there or of what happened yesterday?

There are hunt members who have been assaulted had property damaged (including brake lines cut) and at least one who lost his life to hunt monitors/saboteurs.

So yes I blame sabs for initiating violence, as this is what I have experienced. I would acknowledge that there are good and bad on both sides but the level of provocation offered by sabs is something else.

I do not hunt now but have in the past. pre ban and decided it was not for me. I have never said I had not hunted so please do not put words in my mouth. I do not sab or monitor only because I do not have time too. I certainly would do and may well do in the future.
I do have first hand knowledge as I often see the chaos caused by my local hunt and have recently reported them to the police as I saw them with my own eyes chasing a fox.
Fox hunting is illegal and you can argue til the cows come home about who is right and who is wrong but the fact remains if you are fox hunting you are breaking the law and sabs will continue to try and stop you.

 

[Fellewell]

Many of you on here seem keen to see all forms of hunting banned, some of you purport to want this out of concern for animals. Can I ask those people how they will square the deaths of 10,000+ hounds with their consciences if they are successful?

Concern for animals Fred? oh well I'm up for a flaming too

No matter how careful breeders are with gene pools and health screening nature still throws up some surprises. You can look at your expensive pooches and not realise that they are the result of repeated outcrossing and backcrossing and the inevitable culling to produce the desired result (not always desirable sadly)
Like any working dog a hound has a job to do and must be fit for purpose, for the country he has to cross, stamina, nose, voice, intelligence, independence, trainability and above all conformation. However careful breeding does not always produce what is expected or required and a hound that is ill or struggling is not made to suffer.
Unfortunately in the pet world it can be all about the money and dogs are bred indiscriminately and sold to the highest bidder. We really shouldn't be seeing 4 month old puppies suffering with crippling degenerative diseases, while bitches who've had the requisite 4 registered litters are dumped in rescues.
At least the hunt takes care of its own.