Hunting is in a spot of bother

[Fred66]

..

I do not hunt now but have in the past. pre ban and decided it was not for me. I have never said I had not hunted so please do not put words in my mouth. I do not sab or monitor only because I do not have time too. I certainly would do and may well do in the future.
I do have first hand knowledge as I often see the chaos caused by my local hunt and have recently reported them to the police as I saw them with my own eyes chasing a fox.
Fox hunting is illegal and you can argue til the cows come home about who is right and who is wrong but the fact remains if you are fox hunting you are breaking the law and sabs will continue to try and stop you.

Everyone on here who has said they are pro hunt has indicated on numerous occasions that they are pro-legal hunting and against brea the law.

My comment regarding your being involved in hunting was specifically in respect of being able or not to talk of current experience of the saboteurs and hunts. Also as it is approaching 17 years since the ban any first hand experience is a long time ago.

You obviously have some experience of your local hunt (not sure which) and if they are hunting illegally and causing significant disruption and damage then this should be dealt with, but this is not the case for all hunts.

 

[Sandstone1]

Concern for animals Fred? oh well I'm up for a flaming too

No matter how careful breeders are with gene pools and health screening nature still throws up some surprises. You can look at your expensive pooches and not realise that they are the result of repeated outcrossing and backcrossing and the inevitable culling to produce the desired result (not always desirable sadly)
Like any working dog a hound has a job to do and must be fit for purpose, for the country he has to cross, stamina, nose, voice, intelligence, independence, trainability and above all conformation. However careful breeding does not always produce what is expected or required and a hound that is ill or struggling is not made to suffer.
Unfortunately in the pet world it can be all about the money and dogs are bred indiscriminately and sold to the highest bidder. We really shouldn't be seeing 4 month old puppies suffering with crippling degenerative diseases, while bitches who've had the requisite 4 registered litters are dumped in rescues.
At least the hunt takes care of its own.

I do not disagree about pet dogs. Sadly hounds are still being bred and trained for a job that should not exist. Yes we know trail hunting is still legal at the moment at least but that does not explain why hounds are trained to follow fox sent.
If hunts really care about their hounds they would reduce the amount of puppies they bred now.

 

[Sandstone1]

..

Everyone on here who has said they are pro hunt has indicated on numerous occasions that they are pro-legal hunting and against brea the law.

My comment regarding your being involved in hunting was specifically in respect of being able or not to talk of current experience of the saboteurs and hunts. Also as it is approaching 17 years since the ban any first hand experience is a long time ago.

You obviously have some first hand experience of your local hunt (not sure which) and if they are hunting illegally and causing significant disruption and damage then this should be dealt with, but this is not the case for all hunts.

I often come in to contact with the hunt and its followers on local roads and witness first hand the chaos they cause by hunting along side roads. Seen first hand. hunting and riding in to the dark seen first hand. Chasing a fox seen first hand. churning up bridleways seen first hand. upsetting livestock first hand.

 

[skinnydipper]

At least the hunt takes care of its own.

Oh, that's all right then Remind me again how many are 'disposed of' each year.

I think to call it 'taking care of' is a bit of a stretch

 

[paddy555]

Obviously there is footage of a sab being hit by a horse last week, however the rider that caught him does look unsighted and it does look like an unfortunate accident.

a group of people cantering horses towards others to intimidate them is not an accident. It is a deliberate act and beyond any sort of belief. If you canter a horse at someone there is always the possibility of something going wrong and you not being able to control the outcome as was the case here.
Far from being regarded as an accident it should be regarded as a deliberate assault and the rider should be prosecuted. He rode that way and at that person deliberately. It was very easy to foresee what could, and did, become the outcome.

All the public saw from that clip was the total arrogance of the hunt prepared to knock people down in temper for their sport.


For the sake of balance I have no problem in prosecuting sabs as well.

 

[Millionwords]

a group of people cantering horses towards others to intimidate them is not an accident. It is a deliberate act and beyond any sort of belief. If you canter a horse at someone there is always the possibility of something going wrong and you not being able to control the outcome as was the case here.
Far from being regarded as an accident it should be regarded as a deliberate assault and the rider should be prosecuted. He rode that way and at that person deliberately. It was very easy to foresee what could, and did, become the outcome.

All the public saw from that clip was the total arrogance of the hunt prepared to knock people down in temper for their sport.


For the sake of balance I have no problem in prosecuting sabs as well.

Agree, these are not the actions a person would take unless they were happy with the potential to cause harm.

 

[Millionwords]

Agree, these are not the actions a person would take unless they were happy with the potential to cause harm.

Anyone doing anything to cause harm, hunt or Sabs deserve the same treatment by the law.

 

[Clodagh]

I’m pro hunting but this thread is turning me into an anti!
Hunts need to stop trespassing and upsetting other people. They could still carry on killing foxes and no one in the main would care. The trespass and damage is far more upsetting to your average rural dweller (IMO).

 

[Sandstone1]

I’m pro hunting but this thread is turning me into an anti!
Hunts need to stop trespassing and upsetting other people. They could still carry on killing foxes and no one in the main would care. The trespass and damage is far more upsetting to your average rural dweller (IMO).

I agree about the upsetting other people and trespassing etc but have to very strongly disagree with your comment on killing foxes!
I think most people do care very much about the hunt killing foxes illegally. It has been illegal for 17 years now and I think most people do not realise it still goes on. This, I think is what hunts rely on. It very much needs to be brought to the general populations notice that it is still going on.

 

[palo1]

@Clodagh : 'I’m pro hunting but this thread is turning me into an anti!'' Generally that is the intention on this thread...

Truly, none of the hunts I know of behave badly. None of my friends hunts across the country behave badly. There are still many or even most hunts that behave entirely respectably. Only last night though I was reading on various bloodhound posts of the abuse and trolling they get from sabs and antis. Most of the bloodhound packs support legal trail hunting but not illegal hunting. Hunting is not one community and one thing and there are badly behaved hunts that need disciplining or disbanding but that is not the case across the country.

 

[Clodagh]

@Clodagh : 'I’m pro hunting but this thread is turning me into an anti!'' Generally that is the intention on this thread...

Truly, none of the hunts I know of behave badly. None of my friends hunts across the country behave badly. There are still many or even most hunts that behave entirely respectably. Only last night though I was reading on various bloodhound posts of the abuse and trolling they get from sabs and antis. Most of the bloodhound packs support legal trail hunting but not illegal hunting. Hunting is not one community and one thing and there are badly behaved hunts that need disciplining or disbanding but that is not the case across the country.

It is very difficult, in todays crowded world, to not upset other people. I just think hunts need to move with the times and be super careful and considerate.
I’m glad your hunt nor any you know ever do anything like trespass or misbehave.

 

[ycbm]

It is very difficult, in todays crowded world, to not upset other people. I just think hunts need to move with the times and be super careful and considerate.

Truly, none of the hunts I know of behave badly.

They do, Palo, you just don't recognise what other people call "behaving badly". As Clodagh says, the world is too crowded now. The population has increased by close to ten million, well over 10% since the Hunting Act was drafted

I'm reasonably sure it was you earlier on in the thread who said it was OK for your foot followers to block country roads with their cars because they came back and moved them straight away if they were called. I think most people who aren't with the hunt call that behaving badly. My experience is that any meet where the parking isn't on private land/takes place at a pub/has ridden followers filling local paths used by walkers etc. will result in many locals believing the hunt has behaved badly.

I think possibly that your own hunt is smaller and more rural than the hunts people are complaining about in other parts of the country.
.

 

[Sandstone1]

I would call actually stopping traffic both ways on a main road just so the hunt can "follow a trail" behaving pretty badly. Stopping lorries and people trying to go about their legal daily business.
Also riding in the dark on roads with no lights on, blocking gateways and churning up grass verges and bridleways. Killing other wildlife because hounds out of control, allowing hounds on railways.
Upsetting peoples livestock and horses because the hunt can not even let people know when they are in the area... I could go on but its all been said before.
Thats not even mentioning the illegal fox hunting.
Maybe people need to realise that even if their hunt does not behave like this there certainly are hunts that do.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The 'I can't be expected to let everyone with an acre and a pony know that the hunt are coming by them' master also vehemently tried to defend the issue of the hunt regularly blocking roads herabouts to through traffic.

Not slowing through traffic, but blocking it completely with horses and gormless riders draped all over the road, and by stupid parking of car followers, lorries, trailers and other hunt vehicles on blind bends etc.

My mobile hairdresser arrived very late one day, having been held for a long time by the hunt blocking the road. She's a horsey country girl, born and bred in the area. She was fuming. I relayed this to the master, who flatly denied that the hunt had caused a nuisance. He insisted that everyone who comes across the hunt on the roads is delighted to be forced to stop and wait, because they want to spend time admiring the hunt.

Err, no. I did my best to disabuse him of this notion, but that entitled attitude is still far too common amongst those who hunt.

It took me nearly half an hour to drive a mile on a NSL road past the hunt once, I was held up by multiple groups of riders en route who were in no hurry to move out of the way.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I always find it a bit odd when self proclaimed animal lovers act so flippant towards the destruction of tens of thousands of hounds. Yes they can argue that it’s the hunts fault not theirs, but the same could be said for the death of a fox. It’s the hunts that are doing the killing, yet they clearly find the death of a fox unacceptable. Why does it seem more acceptable to you to cull hounds?
I suppose I just find it quite hypocritical to show such outrage at the death of a fox, but not seem to care that an outright ban would result in the deaths of so many hounds.

 

[ycbm]

I always find it a bit odd when self proclaimed animal lovers act so flippant towards the destruction of tens of thousands of hounds.

Lets be realistic though, no more hounds would die than usual, they would just not live quite as many years in a kennel. And that isn't the dream some people make it out to be, I've seen the scars from kennel fights.
.

 

[stangs]

Maybe I'm missing something, but could someone explain to me why all these hounds would have to be destroyed? Why can't they be retrained and passed onto drag hunts, or (the younger ones) retrained to do work that'll use their noses?

 

[Gallop_Away]

Do hunts kill more foxes than ones hit by cars? The end result is the same afterall. That same fox killed by a hunt could have been run over the following week. Or shot. Everything dies eventually so if it doesn't matter that a hound is killed sooner rather than later why does it matter with a fox?
Just to point out I'm advocating hunting foxes with hounds by the way. I'm just merely trying to play devils advocate to point out why I find some of the comments on here hypocritical.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Do hunts kill more foxes than ones hit by cars? The end result is the same afterall. That same fox killed by a hunt could have been run over the following week. Or shot. Everything dies eventually so if it doesn't matter that a hound is killed sooner rather than later why does it matter with a fox?
Just to point out I'm advocating hunting foxes with hounds by the way. I'm just merely trying to play devils advocate to point out why I find some of the comments on here hypocritical.

Should we all go out killing wildlife as we please, just because it might get hit by a car at some point? Should I start killing the birds and hedgehogs living in my garden, because oh well everything dies eventually.

I'm sorry but this is the silliest whataboutery I've heard so far.

 

[skinnydipper]

Do hunts kill more foxes than ones hit by cars? The end result is the same afterall. That same fox killed by a hunt could have been run over the following week. Or shot. Everything dies eventually so if it doesn't matter that a hound is killed sooner rather than later why does it matter with a fox?
Just to point out I'm advocating hunting foxes with hounds by the way. I'm just merely trying to play devils advocate to point out why I find some of the comments on here hypocritical.

I can see an obvious difference.

If a fox is hit by a car it is an accidental death.

If it is killed by a hunt then it has lost its life for the purpose of providing entertainment for humans.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Maybe I'm missing something, but could someone explain to me why all these hounds would have to be destroyed? Why can't they be retrained and passed onto drag hunts, or (the younger ones) retrained to do work that'll use their noses?

Because in the same way my terrier will still hunt rats even though I've never trained her to do so, a fox hound would still retain it's instinct to hunt foxes.
Drag pack use bloodhounds which are entirely different to a foxhound.
They are working animals and can not be rehomed to just anyone. Some could be but the likelihood is many would end up being destroyed.

 

[meleeka]

I always find it a bit odd when self proclaimed animal lovers act so flippant towards the destruction of tens of thousands of hounds. Yes they can argue that it’s the hunts fault not theirs, but the same could be said for the death of a fox. It’s the hunts that are doing the killing, yet they clearly find the death of a fox unacceptable. Why does it seem more acceptable to you to cull hounds?
I suppose I just find it quite hypocritical to show such outrage at the death of a fox, but not seem to care that an outright ban would result in the deaths of so many hounds.

I don’t think many posters have an issue with death if needed. It’s the unnecessary suffering that’s wrong (and yes I’m counting the chase of a fox as unnecessary in the vast majority of cases).

Those hounds aren’t going to make it into middle age anyway. so doing the same job a few years or months earlier than planned isn’t really going to make any difference to them.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Should we all go out killing wildlife as we please, just because it might get hit by a car at some point? Should I start killing the birds and hedgehogs living in my garden, because oh well everything dies eventually.

I'm sorry but this is the silliest whataboutery I've heard so far.

You've completely missed my point. I even stated at the bottom of my post i was NOT advocating hunting of foxes with hounds. That is not what I am saying at all.
Ycbm said that hounds will only be killed at a later point so if hunting is banned and hounds are culled it wouldn't really matter. But that same argument could be applied to foxes and yet people find it unacceptable to kill them but act quite flippantly towards the death of hounds.

 

[Gallop_Away]

I can see an obvious difference.

If a fox is hit by a car it is an accidental death.

If it is killed by a hunt then it has lost its life for the purpose of providing entertainment for humans.

What does the reason matter? Dead is dead.

I just think antis and so called animal lovers need to have a think about the implications of an outright ban. Why does the life of a fox matter but the life of a hound does not?

 

[Fred66]

Maybe I'm missing something, but could someone explain to me why all these hounds would have to be destroyed? Why can't they be retrained and passed onto drag hunts, or (the younger ones) retrained to do work that'll use their noses?

Because people are pushing for banning all forms of hunting with hounds.

 

[meleeka]

What does the reason matter? Dead is dead.

I just think antis and so called animal lovers need to have a think about the implications of an outright ban. Why does the life of a fox matter but the life of a hound does not?

Humans thundering through the countryside while a fox literally runs for its life, then loses, is hardly comparable to a hound being shot quickly and cleanly, out of necessity, not sport.

You ought to be happy people don’t concern themselves more with the welfare of hounds or hunting would be even more unpopular than already is.

 

[skinnydipper]

What does the reason matter? Dead is dead.

I just think antis and so called animal lovers need to have a think about the implications of an outright ban. Why does the life of a fox matter but the life of a hound does not?

I will remind you of planete's excellent post.

If the foxhounds bred since 2004 had been trained to follow an artificial scent and the hunts had abided by the law the situation would be very different.

You are mistaken if you think I would be happy about the destruction of hounds.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Humans thundering through the countryside while a fox literally runs for its life, then loses, is hardly comparable to a hound being shot quickly and cleanly, out of necessity, not sport.

You ought to be happy people don’t concern themselves more with the welfare of hounds or hunting would be even more unpopular than already is.

I appreciate the unnecessary suffering is also a factor for many people.
However reading some of the comments along the lines of "thats not our problem" towards the death of hounds from people who claim to love animals!!? Well I really do find that to be hypocrisy of the highest order I'm afraid

 

[Fred66]

Lets be realistic though, no more hounds would die than usual, they would just not live quite as many years in a kennel. And that isn't the dream some people make it out to be, I've seen the scars from kennel fights.
.

Some hounds are put down each year for a combination of reasons: injured/ill health not suitable for job (may not be safe round livestock, may be prone to stray, may be aggressive etc), age. They are large dogs and work hard and 8 /9 is probably the upper age they can realistically work, some might be retired back to their puppy walkers but many would not go back to that environment. So yes around 12% of hounds are probably put down each year, however if all hunting of any form of scent with hounds is banned then this figure will rise to around 95%. The very thought of this brings tears to my eyes, and the deliberate callousness of some peoples comments “no more hounds than normal”, “so if hunting is banned and a few more hounds are culled it wouldn’t really matter” from people who purport to be bothered about animals is hypocritical and just, well to be honest words fail me.

 

[skinnydipper]

Some hounds are put down each year for a combination of reasons: injured/ill health not suitable for job (may not be safe round livestock, may be prone to stray, may be aggressive etc), age. They are large dogs and work hard and 8 /9 is probably the upper age they can realistically work, some might be retired back to their puppy walkers but many would not go back to that environment. So yes around 12% of hounds are probably put down each year, however if all hunting of any form of scent with hounds is banned then this figure will rise to around 95%. The very thought of this brings tears to my eyes, and the deliberate callousness of some peoples comments “no more hounds than normal”, “so if hunting is banned and a few more hounds are culled it wouldn’t really matter” from people who purport to be bothered about animals is hypocritical and just, well to be honest words fail me.

The more I learn about this "sport" the more it disgusts me.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thousands-healthy-foxhounds---including-6061265

https://www.wildlifeguardian.co.uk/hunting/hounds/