Hunting is in a spot of bother

Gallop_Away

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Once again stop breeding them then! You breed them you are responsible for them.
Yes hunts are responsible for them but I still find it odd how little concern they are shown from you who claim to be animal lovers.
They exist so simply saying "it's not my problem" sounds like a total cop out I'm afraid 🙄
 

Chianti

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Some hounds are put down each year for a combination of reasons: injured/ill health not suitable for job (may not be safe round livestock, may be prone to stray, may be aggressive etc), age. They are large dogs and work hard and 8 /9 is probably the upper age they can realistically work, some might be retired back to their puppy walkers but many would not go back to that environment. So yes around 12% of hounds are probably put down each year, however if all hunting of any form of scent with hounds is banned then this figure will rise to around 95%. The very thought of this brings tears to my eyes, and the deliberate callousness of some peoples comments “no more hounds than normal”, “so if hunting is banned and a few more hounds are culled it wouldn’t really matter” from people who purport to be bothered about animals is hypocritical and just, well to be honest words fail me.
Why do the hounds have to be put down if trail hinting is banned? Could the ex hunt followers not pay for their keep until the age at which they would have been PTS if they were still hunting?
 

Chianti

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It really is unbelievable how callous so called animal lovers can be. This idea that hunts don't care about their hounds. Our master knows each hound by name, can tell you their parents siblings bloodlines etc. He can tell you their strengths and how they tend to hunt.
Sabs just love to post photos of themselves hugging the hounds with the caption along the lines "the only love they'll ever know". I can tell you that is pure bull poop. They would not be so affectionate towards people if they were not shown love and affection regularly.
To watch our master interact with his hounds is amazing. He adores them and they him.
To hear those who say they love animals be so flippant towards the deaths of these beautiful animals who are very much thought of and cared for just disgusts me to be honest.
And yet it's perfectly acceptable for one to be shot if it doesn't meet the required spec. Doesn't that seem a bit hypocritical? They're 'very much thought of and cared for' until they don't make the grade.
 

Koweyka

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The hounds are as much victims as the foxes and the other casualties of trail hunting. If they aren’t hanging off barbed wire, running with cut feet, kicked by horses, hit by cars, run over by trains, falling off cliffs, falling down mine shafts, the bitches suffering from prolapses from over breeding, having chunks taken out of them due to kennel fights. They get a bullet in the back of the head when they no longer fulfil their purpose, so dont fein fake concern over them and blame the anti’s because it doesn’t wash. Again you have had 17 YEARS to get your house in order and you haven’t.

It’s not like trail hunting will end over night, but it will end so slow down the breeding now, one huntsman I have the misfortune of knowing is already bragging about the bitches he is going to breed this summer, the same huntsman that shot twenty hounds because they followed a fake trail too well and had lost the fox killing instinct when he took over.

We get to know the hounds, when we don’t see them for a few weeks we worry they have been killed, I spoke to a hunt supporter she said it’s ok to kill them when they are six as they have had great lives. So forgive me if I am not buying the fake outrage about the hounds because the blame lies squarely on every trail hunt/rider/supporter who has kept quiet and buried their heads for 17 YEARS.

When we see hounds that are struggling we have asked if we can rehome them through recognised charities with RBU and home checks if the hunts would work with charities direct and not even deal with us and we get told to F off.

So yes you should all weep at the tragedy you have created for these innocent dogs.
 

TheFatControlleR

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Fred66

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……. so dont fein fake concern over them and blame the anti’s because it doesn’t wash.
As fat controller said we are not going to change each other’s mind on this subject so there probably is very little else to say on this subject, however I cannot allow this comment to pass without reply as you are so wrong if you think we don’t care for the hounds.
 
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Gallop_Away

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Just to be clear. I do not think illegal hunting should continue just so hounds don't end up being culled. That was not the point I was trying to make.
I think that LEGAL trail hunting should be allowed to continue along with drag hunting. I do not think these beautiful animals deserve to be culled if trail hunting was banned. Some hounds may be rehomed, others may be used as drag hounds, and yes in some cases hunt followers may be happy to pay for their keep if trail hunting was banned (I think many of our members, myself included would happily contribute even if hunting was banned). But the reality is many would end up being destroyed because there simply wouldn't be enough suitable homes or the funds to keep them, and that is so terribly sad in my opinion.
As Fred and admin said we are clearly very unlikely to agree on this but I can assure you we do care about our hounds. They are the very reason we can do the legal sport we love. Just as we love our horses. Without these beautiful animals trail hunting wouldn't be possible. We have a huge amount of love and respect for these animals.
I appreciate some here will never agree or understand our view but I just wanted to clarify I was not suggesting illegal hunting should be allowed to continue. I won't say any more on the matter.
 
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Koweyka

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As fat controller said we are not going to change each other’s mind on this subject so there probably is very little else to say on this subject, however I cannot allow this comment to pass without reply as you are so wrong if you think we don’t care for the hounds.
Then you need to start taking some collective responsibility for these beautiful creatures. Everything I have said above regarding incidents with hounds is true. It may not be with your pack but I have seen with my own eyes the reckless danger hounds are put in on a weekly basis. Not all hounds are living the dream.
 

Koweyka

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This sums up perfectly what is happening all around the country and why we feel the way we do about trail hunting.
Less than 10% of hunts are monitored, this is a snapshot of just one month ….one month just look at how many foxes and hounds have died. These are the ones we know about approx 178 hunts have no monitoring at all.
 

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Sandstone1

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This sums up perfectly what is happening all around the country and why we feel the way we do about trail hunting.
Less than 10% of hunts are monitored, this is a snapshot of just one month ….one month just look at how many foxes and hounds have died. These are the ones we know about approx 178 hunts have no monitoring at all.
How many " Accidents" are acceptable when "Trail hunting"?
 

Koweyka

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How many " Accidents" are acceptable when "Trail hunting"?
None, absolutely none. All steps must be taken to avoid any accidents, this includes the scent and the areas the scent is laid, it must be laid well away from anywhere foxes are likely to live and to cast hounds into areas where foxes are should also be seen as deliberate hunting.
 

ycbm

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I cannot allow this comment to pass without reply as you are so wrong if you think we don’t care for the hounds.

This is another case of not seeing things through the eyes of ordinary folks who don't hunt I'm afraid. I'm sure hunts care about them, but only within the bounds of them doing a job for the hunt.

All the hounds I've seen have lived in groups in concrete based cages with stables type bedding of some kind. I've seen a badly scarred hound that I was told resulted from a kennel fight. I've heard of hounds killed in kernel fights. I've seen injuries caused by barbed wire and I've seen a caught hound teetering on a barbed wire fence screaming until somebody came to unhook it. I've seen a loose hound hit by a car. I've seen two hunts amalgamate and all the hounds from one of them shot within a season. As soon as a hound is too slow, loses, or never had, the desire to hunt it will be put down.

Ordinary folk with no attachment to hunting would not perceive that as "caring for the hounds".

I'm sorry to continue to argue back against you like this, and I suspect you will find this difficult to believe, but I want legal trail hunting to continue.

It frustrates the hell out of me that I can't see that happening unless hunting people start to realise how what they are saying comes across to other people outside the sport.
.
 

ycbm

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This sums up perfectly what is happening all around the country and why we feel the way we do about trail hunting.
Less than 10% of hunts are monitored, this is a snapshot of just one month ….one month just look at how many foxes and hounds have died. These are the ones we know about approx 178 hunts have no monitoring at all.

For the sake of balance I have to say that I think the gravestone is daft anthropomorphism and to state that if those foxes were causing a nuisance, I would be perfectly happy for them to have been shot.
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Clodagh

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I would say that I work my dogs and they are scarred and have had many injuries. It doesn’t mean I don’t adore them. I know that is shooting, another contentious issue but all dogs that work have the risk of injuries, as do horses.
If you do something with an animal you elevate the risk of harm.
Hunt staff do love their hounds. They do try to find retirement homes for some that will cope. We have had retired hounds, the foxhounds have never coped but the bassets and harriers did.
But I also agree that they should stop breeding so many if you need to hunt a smaller pack to maintain control and it will be easier going forwards.
 

CanteringCarrot

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Hunts, IMO, opinion "care for the hounds" in that they provide for their basic needs (shelter, water, food, and exercise). They also care for them as long as they do the job.

It's going to be an uphill battle to show that hunts care for the hounds when they're talking to people that have dogs as pets. I've seen some kennels where hounds are kept and I'd never keep a dog that way, and I think that goes for most dog (as a pet) owners. So it's going to be hard for them to see that hunts care for the hounds.

Obviously hounds aren't pets and they're working dogs, but some conditions I've seen in kennels are how hounds are cared for has been very subpar and disgusting. So it's going to be really hard for the non-hunt or average dog owner to accept this.

I get that shooting a hound when it can't do the job isn't the worst thing for it and that they're not exactly easy to rehome in many cases, but you're going to be criticized for that. I think that's hard to avoid.
 

Clodagh

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None, absolutely none. All steps must be taken to avoid any accidents, this includes the scent and the areas the scent is laid, it must be laid well away from anywhere foxes are likely to live and to cast hounds into areas where foxes are should also be seen as deliberate hunting.
I agree about using non fox based scent but there are few places in the countryside you can be absolutely sure there won’t be a fox. In the middle of large open field possibly, and that’s no guarantee.
 
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Koweyka

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I agree about using non fox based scent but there are few places in the countryside you can be absolutely sure there won’t be a fox. In the middle of large open field possibly, and that’s no guarantee.
But it’s all about mitigating the risk, we aren’t daft, we know a fox can pop up, but the deliberate laying of trails (when they are laid) into areas that absolutely stink of fox is always an accident waiting to happen. If trails have to be in the middle of a field then so be it, it can still be an interesting day, there just hasn’t been any compromise or change since the ban. We want to “mimic” how a fox runs ….that’s the smokescreen 🤷‍♀️
 

Koweyka

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For the sake of balance I have to say that I think the gravestone is daft anthropomorphism and to state that if those foxes were causing a nuisance, I would be perfectly happy for them to have been shot.
.
Why is it daft, did you see hounds and deer and a horse were included ? They are all dead and doubt Barney was causing a nuisance to anybody or the deer, the hounds on the railway … they weren’t following a pre laid trail, all are victims whichever way you look at it.
 

Gallop_Away

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can hunting people explain why so many hounds are needed? less hounds easier to control?
Clodagh makes a good point. We are a relatively small pack compared to some of our neighbours.
Our master does have excellent control as I've said before but I can definitely see how having a smaller pack helps in this matter.
I remember our master also telling us that it's usually the younger hounds that are more of a "flight risk" so he tries to alternate how many youngsters he takes out at a time as easier to keep an eye on them. Usually with a good mix of older more experienced hounds and also depends on the type of country we are hunting.
 
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Clodagh

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can hunting people explain why so many hounds are needed? less hounds easier to control?
Some hounds are better at things than others, so some better at finding the line, some better at being persistent, some better on poor scenting areas and so on. Also some speak better. And more sounds wonderful, imo.
 

ycbm

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I don't think it's the number of hounds that's the problem. I'm pretty sure I never saw less than 20 out drag hunting and although I saw them latch onto fox scent several times, they were always swiftly recalled.
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Clodagh

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I don't think it's the number of hounds that's the problem. I'm pretty sure I never saw less than 20 out drag hunting and although I saw them latch onto fox scent several times, they were always swiftly recalled.
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I am not up to date but when I hunted (foxhounds) they’d have used 20 couple, or thereabouts, so 40.
 

saalsk

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I can't work out how to quote, I apologise

Paddy 555 asked "why are so many hounds needed - less hounds, easier to control"

My situation is that several times a year, people on foot use hounds ( maybe 10-12 ) to hunt foxes in this area. They don't tell us when, so they just appear. They (the men) don't trespass on my land, so I can't do anything. But the dogs do. They upset my sheep, my horses and freak the cats out. The men are several fields away - I can see them with binoculars, and sometimes in the distance, but if anything happened on my yard, they would be 10-15 mins walk away. The dogs are quite obviously not under close control, as required. The horns are blaring, the hounds take about as much notice as my lurcher would, when telling him not to grab a bit of bacon rind that fell on the floor. Or not to roll in fox poop when out on a walk. So no - less hounds is obviously not easier to control for some packs - and I would be amazed if these *hunters* are affiliated with any governing body that is going to be regulating them in any way. A recent local community FB topic, from many other people complaining about the hounds being on the road, chasing cats, invading gardens and causing a nuisance, gave the pro-hunt people plenty of chance to tell them that ""they live in the country - get used to it"" and that their ""town views have no place here, f off back to the town"". They were clearly hunting foxes when they crossed my land - the arrogance is mind blowing, and their attitudes are rude and bullying, which is one of the reasons they feel free to carry on as they do, safe in the knowledge that most people would not stick their head above the parapet to say something out loud. I have absolutely no problem with legal trail hunting - but that isn't what some of them are doing. Much as they try to tell us otherwise.
 

GSD Woman

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Quite. The police and government briefings about animal rights activists (including hunt saboteurs) identifies them as a significant risk and in certain instances on a par with terrorists. This isn't something anyone should take lightly or underestimate. They do not identify registered trail hunts in the same way as the ideology and preparedness of animal rights activists to cause harm, civil order issues and illegal disruption is far greater and more serious than anything a hunt has proven itself prepared to do. It is, in fact individuals within a hunt that cause problems that require police attendance yet the entire underlying manifesto of animal rights activists is to disrupt and cause damage.

That is not to justify any violent or antisocial action by hunt individuals but membership of certain organisations related to animal rights activism causes far more concern to the police than any hunt activity is going to. The Hunting Act is sufficient for the Police to deal with antisocial or illegal hunting activities. Every time an animal rights organisation is involved however, the police have to consider the terrorism/ proscribed groups legislation and potential for teIt



I've worked in biomedical research and there was a seminar with the FBI about the animal rights movement and the extreme arms of the of the AR movement. The planted bombs, houses flooded by having water hoses fed through mail slots and the hose turned on, families being threated and harassed.

Why is so hard for the legit hunts to arrange monitors to ensure that they are being legal?

As far as what happens to the hounds, they are working dogs first and foremost. Rehoming is great if the hound is suitable. A good, clean shot isn't any crueler than the a syringe of the pink juice. People may be offended by that point of view but I'm a realist and know many kennel kept hounds, or any typed of kennel kept dog, can be incredible hard to housetrain. Instinct is very hard to train away. Many years ago I did a hound walk and asked about why the hounds didn't run deer. The answer was that the hounds have been bred to track fox.

My older GSD is from protection and sport dogs and he has worked sheep and goats. Again instinct.
 

Clodagh

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Gareth Thomas, Emeritus Professor, University of East Anglia Law School

When you have read his tweets click on show replies/show more replies

It’s really wrong but that made me laugh. I have to admit when we farmed in Essex the police did respond very rapidly to illegal coursers. I suppose, to look it in a kind way, you can get a prosecution for coursing but not for (accidental) hunting?
 

skinnydipper

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It’s really wrong but that made me laugh. I have to admit when we farmed in Essex the police did respond very rapidly to illegal coursers. I suppose, to look it in a kind way, you can get a prosecution for coursing but not for (accidental) hunting?
Sorry, Clodagh. I had deleted it, as rather pointless post really. :)

Reinstated.
 
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