Hunting is in a spot of bother

[palo1]

Okay? Noone suggests this is okay....it just seems like deflection from the cubbing topic.

"OOOh but what about these incidents with sabs?" isn't really a valid defence to wrong doing or very useful.

x riding over y being okay because "y was worse than x" seems a bizzare suggestion.

I wasn't intending that at all though I do often think that context is useful in discussion. It seems and often feels, on this thread in particular, that only one version of hunting is to be represented and as it is a public forum I think it is ok, with respect, to present other narratives and experiences. Those may not be 'popular' on this forum but it doesn't mean that they are not representative of a larger group of people, as is the anti hunt position. The thread is called 'Hunting is in a spot of bother' which it is! I am engaging with that in the particular post you are referring to by reporting on some of the bother involved in hunting, albeit from a different perspective. I don't think any of us want this culture war tbh and I probably have more in common with anti-hunters views than they would like to accept possibly. I don't actually particularly enjoy contributing to this thread but the right of people to engage in trail hunting and hunting cultures is important to me (scoff, laugh away - I know!) for a number of reasons. I am glad I live somewhere that it is possible to hold those views and to publicly voice them tis all.

Perhaps some posters would like to see my voice and that of other trail hunters, shooters etc shut down?

 

[minesadouble]

I really admire you Palo1 because you are always the voice of reason. Regardless of how much you are goaded you always keep your cool and remain rational and logical.

There is no way I could do the same as it must feel like banging your head against a brick wall sometimes.

I am a hunt supporter and indeed have just spent a lovely Sunday at the puppy show where one of the judges was Sir Johnny Scott whom I greatly admire and who also talks an awful lot of sense.
But every time I get involved in one of these threads I just get so infuriated, clearly I'm not alone as I have noticed other hunting forum members tend to keep out of them too, I'm assuming for the same reason as myself.

 

[Millionwords]

I wasn't intending that at all though I do often think that context is useful in discussion. It seems and often feels, on this thread in particular, that only one version of hunting is to be represented and as it is a public forum I think it is ok, with respect, to present other narratives and experiences. Those may not be 'popular' on this forum but it doesn't mean that they are not representative of a larger group of people, as is the anti hunt position. The thread is called 'Hunting is in a spot of bother' which it is! I am engaging with that in the particular post you are referring to by reporting on some of the bother involved in hunting, albeit from a different perspective. I don't think any of us want this culture war tbh and I probably have more in common with anti-hunters views than they would like to accept possibly. I don't actually particularly enjoy contributing to this thread but the right of people to engage in trail hunting and hunting cultures is important to me (scoff, laugh away - I know!) for a number of reasons. I am glad I live somewhere that it is possible to hold those views and to publicly voice them tis all.

Perhaps some posters would like to see my voice and that of other trail hunters, shooters etc shut down?

I've stated before I hunted pre-ban and I enjoyed it. However like others on here who have seen both sides of the coin, many do not see it as a culture war, more of a clear case of what is now right and wrong given the law/ public opinion/ behavior of the hunts.
The current hunting community makes very few (if any) compelling arguments for their case now, and fails to see that no-one outside the community itself can take them seriously because of it.

I was gutted when the ban occured, the behavior and disregard for anyone but themselves now makes me loathe to admit I was previously a lover and participant because I do not want to be seen to be part of a group of people who now can only see as far as the ends of their own noses.

ETA - With regards Sabs, I do not agree with many/most of their actions either, however I can see why they do it given the state of affairs. Everyone is in the wrong. That could be solved with a total ban, which seems the only way given that neither party can be trusted to behave.

Saying "but not all hunts /sabs " doesn't help anyones argument - if you have no mechanism to control those hunts, then a blanket ban is the only way.

 

[palo1]

I really admire you Palo1 because you are always the voice of reason. Regardless of how much you are goaded you always keep your cool and remain rational and logical.

There is no way I could do the same as it must feel like banging your head against a brick wall sometimes.

I am a hunt supporter and indeed have just spent a lovely Sunday at the puppy show where one of the judges was Sir Johnny Scott whom I greatly admire and who also talks an awful lot of sense.
But every time I get involved in one of these threads I just get so infuriated, clearly I'm not alone as I have noticed other hunting forum members tend to keep out of them too, I'm assuming for the same reason as myself.

Sir Johnny Scott is an absolute legend, a true gentleman and passionate conservationist. I have had the privilege of discussing hunting matters with him on a number of occasions!! These threads about hunting, usually started and pushed by anti-hunters, in my view, are incredibly frustrating to contribute to and really I do wonder why I bother. I do know though there are other posters on the forum that share my views - I completely understand their reluctance to engage but I was brought up to respect and stand up for the right to speak openly so it IS important to me to offer a different perspective on hunting. I have had the benefit of time in other cultures too and have found that having your views and opinions challenged is generally a good thing. Also, I have no desire to contribute to echo chamber culture which, generally speaking, social media promotes. I don't like seeing my hunting community so misrepresented and slated so in spite of real frustration I do blooming carry on with this 'discussion'...

 

[Clodagh]

I used to love cubbing. Unboxing in the dark, only very few people out, the chance to see how the puppies you had walked entered. To hear the old hounds again, doing what they were bred to do.
Magical times.

 

[palo1]

I really admire you Palo1 because you are always the voice of reason. Regardless of how much you are goaded you always keep your cool and remain rational and logical.

There is no way I could do the same as it must feel like banging your head against a brick wall sometimes.

I am a hunt supporter and indeed have just spent a lovely Sunday at the puppy show where one of the judges was Sir Johnny Scott whom I greatly admire and who also talks an awful lot of sense.
But every time I get involved in one of these threads I just get so infuriated, clearly I'm not alone as I have noticed other hunting forum members tend to keep out of them too, I'm assuming for the same reason as myself.

Thank you for your kind words and support of the decent folk in hunting No one wants the bad ones!

 

[Clodagh]

I too have been to several puppy shows this year. Tbh unless you’ve walked an entrant I find them very dull. ?.
I have made many cakes and sandwiches though.

We went to Dunster hound show last week, that was better.

But hunting on the whole needs to do more to root out the bad behaviour. I hope the ban on Mr and Mrs O’Shea with the East Essex doesn’t only last this season, until eyes have moved on.

 

[palo1]

I too have been to several puppy shows this year. Tbh unless you’ve walked an entrant I find them very dull. ?.
I have made many cakes and sandwiches though.

We went to Dunster hound show last week, that was better.

I love the puppy shows and hound shows; usually people are incredibly generous about catering for them and it is a lovely social gathering in civilised weather! I also love the collective knowledge and memory involved with hound breeding. Our hunt usually has someone provide a kind of talk about some aspect of that - sometimes it is dreadfully dull tbh but other times really interesting. I like the summer dressing up, eating afternoon tea and catching up with people I haven't seen for a while. We also have a raffle to raise money for charity which people very generously contribute to.

 

[palo1]

I too have been to several puppy shows this year. Tbh unless you’ve walked an entrant I find them very dull. ?.
I have made many cakes and sandwiches though.

We went to Dunster hound show last week, that was better.

But hunting on the whole needs to do more to root out the bad behaviour. I hope the ban on Mr and Mrs O’Shea with the East Essex doesn’t only last this season, until eyes have moved on.

I hope the O'Sheas are never allowed anywhere near hunting or any other animal related activity again tbh.

 

[Koweyka]

I used to love cubbing. Unboxing in the dark, only very few people out, the chance to see how the puppies you had walked entered. To hear the old hounds again, doing what they were bred to do.
Magical times.

So you knew exactly what was going on, young hounds killing young foxes and you call that magical ?

Describing Cubbing as magical has got to be one of the most revolting comments on this thread.

This is why all hunting needs to be banned outright because you still have people involved that want to kill or think killing is magical, because that’s what Cubbing is it’s killing young foxes just as they start leaving the den and explore, do not use the old **** excuse that it’s to disperse foxes because that’s a lie just another smokescreen to hide the truth.

This is why outside your little hunting bubble what you do is loathed by the majority of the population. I saw a comment further on that it’s not true that people don’t care about the cruelty of hunting because they do, if you explained Cubbing to anyone outside a hunt circle do you think people would support it, like heck they would.

Cubbing ….magical ….sick.

 

[Clodagh]

I don’t hunt any more, but yes I loved it.

 

[Koweyka]

I don’t hunt any more, but yes I loved it.

You loved assisting in the killing of fox cubs ?

 

[Sandstone1]

I used to love cubbing. Unboxing in the dark, only very few people out, the chance to see how the puppies you had walked entered. To hear the old hounds again, doing what they were bred to do.
Magical times.

To describe cubbing as magical is beyond belief, You do realise that young fox cubs are allowed no means of escape and are killed by young hounds? literally pulled apart in the name of sport?

 

[palo1]

So you knew exactly what was going on, young hounds killing young foxes and you call that magical ?

Describing Cubbing as magical has got to be one of the most revolting comments on this thread.

This is why all hunting needs to be banned outright because you still have people involved that want to kill or think killing is magical, because that’s what Cubbing is it’s killing young foxes just as they start leaving the den and explore, do not use the old **** excuse that it’s to disperse foxes because that’s a lie just another smokescreen to hide the truth.

This is why outside your little hunting bubble what you do is loathed by the majority of the population. I saw a comment further on that it’s not true that people don’t care about the cruelty of hunting because they do, if you explained Cubbing to anyone outside a hunt circle do you think people would support it, like heck they would.

Cubbing ….magical ….sick.

I understand that you don't or won't recognise how multi-layered things are/can be. No matter how much people say that hunting wasn't about the killing of foxes, that is all you see. In the same way though that you might find watching a documentary about wildlife magical, it may still contain grisly elements, upsetting sights - even where the context and other elements are, for you, magical/inspiring/whatever. You are still a witness to those scenes and the filming is created with you in mind (as in the general wildlife and nature loving public).

Many, many people who love animals and will reject all and any form of hunting in any situation (eg shooting, hunting where it is legal etc) will still sit down to a 'fabulous' roast dinner/curry/whatever even when they are aware that perhaps the meat in that meal has been produced in pretty horrific conditions in terms of welfare. I think there are posters here who will eat ready meals containing meat, for very good personal reasons, even when they know that perhaps the pork or chicken in that meal has had a horrific life. How many people 'love' a bacon sandwich even when they are perhaps aware of various vile animal husbandry and killing practices in relation to pigs. I have watched ravens hunting larks on the heather and found that to be an inspiring experience even when I am witness to the death of a lark which I would rather see live. I understand, of course, about animals needing to eat to survive but I think you were horrified about the experience of witnessing hunting. Yet, @Clodagh made it clear that other elements of the experience were what they found 'magical'. Life is rarely as simple as we would all find convenient.

 

[Koweyka]

I understand that you don't or won't recognise how multi-layered things are/can be. No matter how much people say that hunting wasn't about the killing of foxes, that is all you see. In the same way though that you might find watching a documentary about wildlife magical, it may still contain grisly elements, upsetting sights - even where the context and other elements are, for you, magical/inspiring/whatever. You are still a witness to those scenes and the filming is created with you in mind (as in the general wildlife and nature loving public).

Many, many people who love animals and will reject all and any form of hunting in any situation (eg shooting, hunting where it is legal etc) will still sit down to a 'fabulous' roast dinner/curry/whatever even when they are aware that perhaps the meat in that meal has been produced in pretty horrific conditions in terms of welfare. I think there are posters here who will eat ready meals containing meat, for very good personal reasons, even when they know that perhaps the pork or chicken in that meal has had a horrific life. How many people 'love' a bacon sandwich even when they are perhaps aware of various vile animal husbandry and killing practices in relation to pigs. I have watched ravens hunting larks on the heather and found that to be an inspiring experience even when I am witness to the death of a lark which I would rather see live. I understand, of course, about animals needing to eat to survive but I think you were horrified about the experience of witnessing hunting. Yet, @Clodagh made it clear that other elements of the experience were what they found 'magical'. Life is rarely as simple as we would all find convenient.

I totally understand hunting for food and the natural world hunting for food, that is not the issue is it. It’s going to an event knowing animals will die so you can enjoy yourself, it’s absolutely barbaric and it’s killing for your own enjoyment.

She actually said she enjoyed seeing foxhounds doing what they were bred to do, it can not be dressed up as anything other than savagery watching animals suffer and die for your own amusement.

I am vegan but it’s each individuals choice about whether they eat meat or not, just as it’s each individuals choice to partake in an extremely cruel practice, it’s not like the cubs can even escape or have a fighting chance with the hideous saddle slappers terrifying them back to their deaths. What sort of person can find that magical.

 

[stangs]

You are still a witness to those scenes and the filming is created with you in mind (as in the general wildlife and nature loving public).

But the act of killing itself isn't done for me, or with me in mind.

Playing the devil's advocate here, but watching a crocodile drag down a zebra - whether in person, or on a screen - is a passive act on my behalf. If I were to start giving crocodiles directions to the local zebra population, or paying some Crocodile Co. for the chance to come along, then I'd be actively participating. So, surely, it's incomparable?

 

[YorksG]

But the act of killing itself isn't done for me, or with me in mind.

Playing the devil's advocate here, but watching a crocodile drag down a zebra - whether in person, or on a screen - is a passive act on my behalf. If I were to start giving crocodiles directions to the local zebra population, or paying some Crocodile Co. for the chance to come along, then I'd be actively participating. So, surely, it's incomparable?

I think you will find that in some of the programmes you are talking about, that the prey are indeed "set up" for the filming.

 

[Mrs_P]

Just playing devils advocate here (and something I may live to regret reading this thread) but what is meat if not "killing for our own enjoyment". Humans are capable of surviving without meat (and yes before that one clever person pipes up that some people have health issues that wouldn't be compatible with a vegetarian lifestyle but I'm talking in general terms here).

How many people generally give much thought to the meat they are eating, and how it has been killed? Most lambs are slaughtered between 6 - 12 months. Pigs are generally slaughtered at 6 months. What makes them less worthy of defending than fox cubs? These animals are also killed for our pleasure if you think about it. How many people genuinely NEED to eat meat, or rather eat it because they simply enjoy it and I include myself in that by the way

 

[Miss_Millie]

I think you'll find that a large percentage of people who are anti-fox hunting are vegetarian or vegan.

 

[CrunchieBoi]

I used to find going to a football game pretty magical.

If the half-time entertainment consisted of pointlessly torturing and killing animals however, I'd have given it a miss.

 

[Mrs_P]

I think you'll find that a large percentage of people who are anti-fox hunting are vegetarian or vegan.

Which, according to this thread should include the vast majority of the general public in the UK. Yet a quick Google search and according the vegan society website only 1.2% of the population are vegan, and 10% are vegetarian......

 

[ycbm]

You could toast bread in the heat of the air of the whataboutery on a fox hunting thread ?
.

 

[Mrs_P]

Ah I did wonder how long before someone started shouting "whataboutery" - which from reading this forum roughly translates to "oh b*llocks someone has made a valid point and brought wider perspective to a discussion but rather than answering that point constructively, instead I will simply shout "whataboutery" over and over and hope they go away"......

 

[Tiddlypom]

The perception of hunting is that participants are actually revelling in the act of killing animals.

Footage such as this of an injured and clearly terrified stag being chased and whipped along by a loudly shouting group of hunters from the Devon and Somerset Staghounds. The exhausted animal was later shot.

This was an utterly abhorrent and cruel way to cull an injured animal. These individuals were doing this for fun. The stag, if indeed he was seriously injured, should have been quietly taken out by a skilled marksman without stress. But where would the fun have been in that?

Listen to the soundtrack as they shout and bay at the poor creature.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...pursuing-injured-stag-across-exmoor-jdqgxngqv

 

[ycbm]

Ah I did wonder how long before someone started shouting "whataboutery" - which from reading this forum roughly translates to "oh b*llocks someone has made a valid point and brought wider perspective to a discussion but rather than answering that point constructively, instead I will simply shout "whataboutery" over and over and hope they go away"......

Rather than answering the point constructively? So untrue.

I have argued all the arguments worth arguing, (as a person who also fox hunted in the past, then drag hunted for many years), over and over and over on this and many other threads over many, many years.
.

 

[Sandstone1]

Killing animals for fun is barbaric, out dated and cruel. I do not see any excuse for doing it.

 

[suestowford]

That footage of the DSSH does not surprise me, having seen them out & about many times.

We went to Dunster hound show last week, that was better.

I was in the ring next to the hound show at Dunster, at the Fell pony show.

 

[Fred66]

At the risk of repeating previous points, the decision on whether hunting with hounds should have been made illegal should have been made on animal welfare grounds not on individual perception of morals on hunting with hounds. If this meant some hunting was allowed then it should have been licensed and rules agreed as to what was deemed acceptable, failure to adhere could have resulted in sanctions up to and including removal of a license.

However that was not what happened, broadly speaking hunting live prey with hounds was banned with the odd exception and trail hunting came into being. Some hunts were slow to convert and a very small minority still flout the law. However the vast majority do now trail hunt.
I would point out that the changes have not improved the welfare of the fox one iota, if anything it is worse and ultimately my outlook is that the welfare of the fox as a species is more important than an assumed outrage at the method being enjoyed or not.

 

[skinnydipper]

At the risk of repeating previous points, the decision on whether hunting with hounds should have been made illegal should have been made on animal welfare grounds not on individual perception of morals on hunting with hounds. If this meant some hunting was allowed then it should have been licensed and rules agreed as to what was deemed acceptable, failure to adhere could have resulted in sanctions up to and including removal of a license.

However that was not what happened, broadly speaking hunting live prey with hounds was banned with the odd exception and trail hunting came into being. Some hunts were slow to convert and a very small minority still flout the law. However the vast majority do now trail hunt.
I would point out that the changes have not improved the welfare of the fox one iota, if anything it is worse and ultimately my outlook is that the welfare of the fox as a species is more important than an assumed outrage at the method being enjoyed or not.

Could you tell me please, does your hunt have terrier men and/or bird of prey?

 

[minesadouble]

What some see as 'whataboutery' I see as the calling out of double standards.