I am BLAZING mad!

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

absolutely nothing to do with lack of preparation on my part. Actually perhaps it is because if I had been responsible I would have emergency cover in place so I could attend our meeting. However it seems that the question of emergency cover hasn't been that popular on this thread and it is considered more of a right just not to go to work instead. I do find that hard to understand.

. . Also I am not under contract to you so nothing on the cancelled meetings front. Also nothing to do with disciplinary. Also the meeting was such that decisions were required. The emergency cover will sort out a vet etc etc so no animals will suffer.

. Simply someone didn't go to work because their horse has colic and it has affected a lot of people. . If you were in private practice would you bill your client?



.

If it was me that cancelled then no I wouldn't, if it were them that cancelled then no if I wanted them as a client, no if it was a one off, but yes if it were recurring or a contract covered such last minute cancellations.
I would have staff that have devolved decision making responsibility in such cases, or they could hold the majority of the meeting and refer the important decisions to me over a call or on another day if necessary. If it cannot happen then you just hope that it's a one off, like I said - life happens. My disciplinery comment was such that if work thought my absence was deserving of one, then I would take it on the chin, confident and still happy with my decision.

I have emergency cover, but if my horse could potentially die I couldn't live with myself if I missed it because I had a meeting. Each to their own, I wouldn't judge someone else as we all have our own considerations when making decisions. If my horse had been bitten, or had a swollen leg then I would trust that they dealt with the vet and I had a full report - my job is such that I would intend to still be present for the vet, but if I was a nurse for example, then I would be happy in first instance for my cover to manage a non-life threatening occurance.

 

[palo1]

See, now I know a lot more businesses/senior managers & execs that would have an issue with work calls being taken while someone was riding a horse than would have an issue with someone having to leave for some kind of home emergency. Certainly my current employers would find it very unprofessional, and I can't say that I disagree with them.

I think this too. I am also intrigued as to how that can work in practice; even for just 1 hour of work there is no way I could be focussing on the detail of work related things AND ride or lunge. The best I could hope for would be to very briefly look at urgent messages but not respond, nor speak to someone with any level of detail or with appropriate levels of information available. I guess every job is different and every horse but I certainly would prefer for myself or my team to be doing one thing OR the other lol.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I think this too. I am also intrigued as to how that can work in practice; even for just 1 hour of work there is no way I could be focussing on the detail of work related things AND ride or lunge. The best I could hope for would be to very briefly look at urgent messages but not respond, nor speak to someone with any level of detail or with appropriate levels of information available. I guess every job is different and every horse but I certainly would prefer for myself or my team to be doing one thing OR the other lol.

It worked exactly like taking a call when driving.

We all ran very busy areas so we found it hard to have time to catch up during the working day, so we’d talk early morning. It was catch up stuff so no need for particular detail… what’s going on in the markets or in politics, where certain national policy or regulatory decisions might lead, interesting innovation ideas that have sprung up or papers that have been published that would be good to read. That sort of thing. Everything that being flat out all day won’t let you get to.

Now that things have settled a bit more post-COVID and we are driving in more, I actually really miss those mornings.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I rather like the idea of teaching a class of 30 x 6 yr olds from horseback, although I'm not sure how well it would work.

As a child, I would have thought that was terribly impressive!

Before you envy me too much though, working from horseback only really covered the 6am ‘is everyone still alive” calls and the 8pm existential crisis calls. Unfortunately not the actual work.

 

[paddy555]

If it was me that cancelled then no I wouldn't, if it were them that cancelled then no if I wanted them as a client, no if it was a one off, but yes if it were recurring or a contract covered such last minute cancellations.
I would have staff that have devolved decision making responsibility in such cases, or they could hold the majority of the meeting and refer the important decisions to me over a call or on another day if necessary. If it cannot happen then you just hope that it's a one off, like I said - life happens. My disciplinery comment was such that if work thought my absence was deserving of one, then I would take it on the chin, confident and still happy with my decision.

I have emergency cover, but if my horse could potentially die I couldn't live with myself if I missed it because I had a meeting. Each to their own, I wouldn't judge someone else as we all have our own considerations when making decisions. If my horse had been bitten, or had a swollen leg then I would trust that they dealt with the vet and I had a full report - my job is such that I would intend to still be present for the vet, but if I was a nurse for example, then I would be happy in first instance for my cover to manage a non-life threatening occurance.

in my original scenario it was definitely the other side who cancelled. The accountants had done nothing wrong, they had merely sat on a train for 3/4 hours discussing the case and working out their approach to the meeting. No blame on their side. Client turned up on time, no blame to him either.

The failure was by the person who had called the meeting. (a govt dept). Their horse was ill and they had stayed at home with it. It only became ill at 8am so no chance to cancel.

I am not sure if client's would be billed, that was a genuine question as to who picks up the tab which would be several hundred pounds.

I don't think it is always as easy as not going because the horse/dog/ stick insect is very ill or dying. There are knock on effects. You really do need back up in place.

ETA this is not a scenario I just dreamed up to be awkward. It is a situation that happened to me IRL.

IRO the opening post I don't think anyone can be "blazing mad" at their employer

 

[criso]

It worked exactly like taking a call when driving

I've never been 100% comfortable that drivers won't be distracted having observed as a passenger and seen studies that suggest hands free can be distracting and we can't multitask as well as we think.

https://www.zurichna.com/knowledge/articles/2020/10/the-illusion-of-safety-distracted-driving-and-hands-free-device-use#:~:text=%E2%80%9CHands%2Dfree%20devices%20and%20voice,mentally%20engages%20with%20interactive%20tasks.%E2%80%9D

Riding is safer in some ways as a horse is less likely to collide with something if you take your hands off the reins but I wouldn't do it on the roads.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Riding is safer in some ways as a horse is less likely to collide with something if you take your hands off the reins but I wouldn't do it on the roads.

I avoid roads in general, I just don’t like riding on them these days with traffic as it is.

 

[paddy555]

I think this too. I am also intrigued as to how that can work in practice; even for just 1 hour of work there is no way I could be focussing on the detail of work related things AND ride or lunge. The best I could hope for would be to very briefly look at urgent messages but not respond, nor speak to someone with any level of detail or with appropriate levels of information available. I guess every job is different and every horse but I certainly would prefer for myself or my team to be doing one thing OR the other lol.

I did a lot of work driving to and from work and also riding after work. That was thinking work, how I was going to approach something. It didn't distract me anymore that listening to the radio or having a discussion with a passenger. In fact those were the best times as there was no distraction. Even now I am retired I do most of my thinking and decision making on finance and the like from the back of a horse. I would happily use a mobile out riding if only we had a signal.

 

[fetlock]

Yes, if the colleague left in the middle of surgery due to a fish tank losing power, and someone died as a result then yes, I would be upset. I may or may not share that with the colleague but I would find it difficult, personally.

We can all talk in extremes, and you seem determined to make this about how I would feel about colleagues so, yes, in that situation I would be upset.

Since my comments to the OP are entirely about how I would feel about myself, I can tell you that I would not be comfortable leaving a work situation for a pet emergency, if I was needed. If I’m not needed, then I leave work for coffee if I like. When I am needed, then I am there 100%, no distractions.

This is why I set up my personal life in a way to minimize the need for others to accommodate my choice to have horses. That’s all it is, and all I’ve said to the OP - I don’t expect others to accommodate the fact that I have horses, so I have back up plans in place.

Apparently you find that completely unreasonable?

That’s an interesting scenario/dilemma. I think I’d rather my operation was cancelled though, than have a surgeon performing it potentially thinking more about the suffocating fish / dying Guinea pig than on whatever he was in the process of carving out of me with their scalpel.

 

[twiggy2]

We clearly have very different views on this subject but I admire both of you LG and twiggys dedication to your work and perhaps when you are literally dealing with people's lives, then you consider your job and your dedication differently. As long as you don't have the same expectations of others, which you state that you do not, then it's your own choice how you manage work/personal commitments.

I wanted to clarify in my job it eould be animals lives at risk not human

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

As a child, I would have thought that was terribly impressive!

Before you envy me too much though, working from horseback only really covered the 6am ‘is everyone still alive” calls and the 8pm existential crisis calls. Unfortunately not the actual work.

I would have been doing my lesson planning/preparation at that time, so really not feasible on horseback.
But flexible office-based working for the last few pre-retirement years certainly made it easier to fit things around the horses and to fit the animals around work.
Fortunately I can now please myself.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

That’s an interesting scenario/dilemma. I think I’d rather my operation was cancelled though, than have a surgeon performing it potentially thinking more about the suffocating fish / dying Guinea pig than on whatever he was in the process of carving out of me with their scalpel.

My feeling would be if the surgeon was thinking about the fish or Guinea Pig more than the patient, then they don’t have the right back up in place for the demands of being a surgeon. There are some work situations where you need to remain focused on work, where you can’t be contactable and where you can’t drop things. If any of that applies then, to me, having animals means having the right support in place to deal with emergencies or alternatively, I wouldn’t have them.

 

[criso]

I avoid roads in general, I just don’t like riding on them these days with traffic as it is.

I was thinking of the people who did it where I was where you have to do roadwork. Riding a sensible horse in the school or field would be OK as horses don't necessarily need physical control as much as guidance on speed and direction so even if you are distracted they should take care of themselves.

I did a lot of work driving to and from work and also riding after work. That was thinking work, how I was going to approach something. It didn't distract me anymore that listening to the radio or having a discussion with a passenger

All of those are OK in the studies they've done but not a handsfree call. The theory is when talking to passenger, they are also aware and observing the road so they adapt e.g. pause as you approach a difficult junction so not distracting.

 

[Tiddlypom]

That’s an interesting scenario/dilemma. I think I’d rather my operation was cancelled though, than have a surgeon performing it potentially thinking more about the suffocating fish / dying Guinea pig than on whatever he was in the process of carving out of me with their scalpel.

That's a very a valid point. Surgeons, thought they tend to have their life admin very tightly sorted, are only human. You do not want an upset and/or distracted surgeon blundering on through an operation which should have been aborted or taken over by another colleague. You would expect them to keep the patient stable pending the op being taken over rather than legging it straight out of theatre, but not necessarily carried out by them to completion. And the rest of their list to be cancelled or taken over by a colleague.

I posted the below in August '22. It was a short lived attempt by son no 2's company to impose the end of all work from home. It backfired with the workforce big time and the company, soon realising the error of their ways and that they were haemorrhaging staff to more enlightened employers, rowed it right back in and the ability to work from home has been restored.

The work force spoke.

Son no 2, he who recently had a bout of Covid which was almost certainly caught at work, has been refused permission to WFH while his girlfriend recovers from a major operation .

His appraisals are excellent, he's just got another distinction in his latest CIMA management accounting exam, and he got special mentions for adapting so well to WFH in the first lockdown. But no, if he wants to be at home he has to take holiday or unpaid leave.

That is not how to motivate your workforce. Girlfriend even works for the same firm, so they know that her pending operation is real.

 

[SO1]

Today I was on a bespoke face to face training course provided by my work that cost 750.

If I was not able to attend the course due to a colicing horse would the expectation be that the trainer who lives quite far away and is a freelancer and would not be able to train another person that day at such notice to go home and rearrange the training for another day and not charge for the lost day's work. I expect if she had turned up at the office and I was not there she would have charged her travel expenses and for her time and my work would have had to pay 750 for that day and then another 750 to rearrange for another day. I expect they would not be happy to loose 750 as a result of my hobby. As my work does not open till 9.00am it would have been too late for them to contact the trainer to tell her not to come.

In that case would you offer to reimburse your work place the 750 because they have lost due to your colicing horse. I probably would offer to pay as it is a result of a hobby not my sickness.

No one is saying that emergency care shouldn’t be provided to animals. The question was, if you are at work and leave suddenly to deal with a horse emergency, does your employer have a right to be upset about it.

No one is leaving any animal in any state, and no one has said that anywhere.

I personally don’t have dogs at home at the moment since ours has been other unless my work life changes drastically and would allow for it.

And I don’t have children for many reasons but my career is one of them.

 

[DabDab]

She said early morning and late evening calls. It isnt totally unreasonable if someone is in the office core hours, and needing to also take calls early and late, those calls are taken on a mobile whilst doing other things.

The phrasing used made it sound like a regular start up meeting type thing. In past jobs i have taken many many many calls outside of normal office hours, bit i dont consider myself to be working in that time, just taking calls
LG has clarified that although regular it was actually more of a general business-related chat type thing, which is quite different to taking a morning meeting while on a horse. When I did a fairly brief stint contracting into a consultancy company there was lots of similar chatter (because nevessary for putting together policy horizons etc), but it was all over Teams chats and yes, people used to respond and post on it at all sorts of times in the day or night. But again, not really the same as conducting meetings while doing another activity that requires quite a lot of attention. Similarly if someone was running a meeting while working their sewing machine or decorating a cake I wouldn't consider that good form either.

 

[expanding_horizon]

I see them as very important to me but I feel that in an emergency situation, the most important thing is having their needs seen to, not whether the person physically present is me.

Being there for the horse is more about me than the horse, but being there for a child goes two ways.

So I need that infrastructure in place to handle home life when I am at work.

I’m not very trusting I’d want to be there for most non routine veterinary issues for my horse, to see the issue for my self and discuss in real life with vet. I’ve had too many errors when I’ve delegated others to deal whilst I’m at work.

It would depend how far away I was, but I’d pretty much always be able to re-jig to be there.

I can get good help but works better once there’s a plan or clear instructions.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Today I was on a bespoke face to face training course provided by my work that cost 750.

If I was not able to attend the course due to a colicing horse would the expectation be that the trainer who lives quite far away and is a freelancer and would not be able to train another person that day at such notice to go home and rearrange the training for another day and not charge for the lost day's work. I expect if she had turned up at the office and I was not there she would have charged her travel expenses and for her time and my work would have had to pay 750 for that day and then another 750 to rearrange for another day. I expect they would not be happy to loose 750 as a result of my hobby. As my work does not open till 9.00am it would have been too late for them to contact the trainer to tell her not to come.

In that case would you offer to reimburse your work place the 750 because they have lost due to your colicing horse. I probably would offer to pay as it is a result of a hobby not my sickness.

Is that a question for me SO1? You quoted me at the end but I wasn’t sure.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I don't read that in any of the posts. What I do read is that some people consider whether they have, and how to put, the appropriate support in place before committing to having children and animals, rather than going ahead regardless, on the assumption that everyone else has to accommodate them.

My recent experience is of managing a single parent who had a chaotic home life at some times but wouldn't take responsibility for addressing the issues despite extensive support offered, and instead frequently took emergency absence for things they knew were going to happen in advance. As their manager I accommodated this above and beyond over a two year period, but quite frankly they took the p, and it takes a lot of time and effort to manage, whilst also covering their business critical tasks.

Flexibility in the workplace is a great thing, but there is an ever increasing population for whom flexibility only works one way.

I did, but i didnt want to single out the person

 

[LadyGascoyne]

The phrasing used made it sound like a regular start up meeting type thing. In past jobs i have taken many many many calls outside of normal office hours, bit i dont consider myself to be working in that time, just taking calls
LG has clarified that although regular it was actually more of a general business-related chat type thing, which is quite different to taking a morning meeting while on a horse.

Nope, just early morning calls. Never been described as anything other than calls. Definitely not meetings, or anything remotely formal.

 

[Barton Bounty]

No one is saying that emergency care shouldn’t be provided to animals. The question was, if you are at work and leave suddenly to deal with a horse emergency, does your employer have a right to be upset about it.

No one is leaving any animal in any state, and no one has said that anywhere.

I personally don’t have dogs at home at the moment since ours has been with my mother since she moved out of our house after my father died. I won’t get another unless my work life changes drastically and would allow for it.

And I don’t have children for many reasons but my career is one of them.

I was not looking to single out the certain person that said it but if you read carefully you will see it.

Thankfully even though I have a very important job and i am a lone worker, my boss would be more than happy for me to see to my emergencies and I work for a very large organisation.
Anyone who didnt like it, could lump it

 

[SO1]

No just a general question and a reason why a work place may be upset if someone didn't turn up and if they didn't have the knowledge of why someone else couldn't not have covered the emergency. In my situation I do have people to cover a colic situation but I would want to be there in case if turned into a PTS situation.

Is that a question for me SO1? You quoted me at the end but I wasn’t sure.

 

[Barton Bounty]

See I can’t understand that. So you are saying that BB would be in trouble if she didn’t leave her possibly dying dog?

Even hypothetically, reading the reactions on this thread, thank fk I dont even work with these people never mind for them …

As I said before , sometimes its better some of them dont bother with children if thats the way they feel about animals

No reason I quoted you, christ knows , my fat fingers I think lol

 

[Barton Bounty]

No one is saying that emergency care shouldn’t be provided to animals. The question was, if you are at work and leave suddenly to deal with a horse emergency, does your employer have a right to be upset about it.

No one is leaving any animal in any state, and no one has said that anywhere.

I personally don’t have dogs at home at the moment since ours has been with my mother since she moved out of our house after my father died. I won’t get another unless my work life changes drastically and would allow for it.

And I don’t have children for many reasons but my career is one of them.

I did leave, my horse was colicking on the Sunday. I have £5k in cash on my desk and when I called my boss she came to my office and told me to go, hurry up, she put away my cash away etc and finished the rest of my shift.
I honestly could not ask for more… if I hadnt arrived in time BB would have died

 

[lynz88]

Nope, just early morning calls. Never been described as anything other than calls. Definitely not meetings, or anything remotely formal.

I have taken the odd call at the yard - usually a general catch up or an "all hands" where I've just got to listen and I'm waiting around for the vet or on my way back home after the vet. I do agree with another poster who mentioned that there are too many times that, when the 'job' of handling the horse for non-routine vet stuff is off-handed to someone else, 9 times out of 10, they report back incorrect information that would have been better to get first hand.

I have also answered emails while cooling out my horse late in the evening that I need to answer right at that minute. There are other days that I'm on calls while I'm on the train going home because I don't feel like getting home at 10pm when I can both travel home and take a call at the same time. It's just about working flexibly in a way that makes sense.

 

[criso]

Today I was on a bespoke face to face training course provided by my work that cost 750.

If I was not able to attend the course due to a colicing horse would the expectation be that the trainer who lives quite far away and is a freelancer and would not be able to train another person that day at such notice to go home and rearrange the training for another day and not charge for the lost day's work. I expect if she had turned up at the office and I was not there she would have charged her travel expenses and for her time and my work would have had to pay 750 for that day and then another 750 to rearrange for another day. I expect they would not be happy to loose 750 as a result of my hobby. As my work does not open till 9.00am it would have been too late for them to contact the trainer to tell her not to come.

In that case would you offer to reimburse your work place the 750 because they have lost due to your colicing horse. I probably would offer to pay as it is a result of a hobby not my sickness.

Similar but when employed I was on site to deliver training and implementation etc. The company I worked for charged about $1500 per day - I wasn't paid anything like that so that wasn't their costs. Things did get cancelled regularly at the last minute, sometimes because a staff member wasn't available, sometimes because client workplace had a crisis they needed to deal with. The client would have my contact details so could contact me out of hours if needed so no need to worry about office hours so could hopefully let me know before I got there.

The session got rebooked and the client wasn't charged, it wasn't worth the ill will and discussions. If there was travel involved, the extra costs would be added to the final bill. If it was a overseas trip cancelled at the last minute, they would be charged any fees for changing flights and hotels which sometimes were sometimes challenged.

As a freelancer now, I wouldn't charge apart from out of pocket expenses.

In both cases the onsite billable time is only part of the work, there's a lot of admin too so I'd go home/ back to the office and get on with prep for the next job, reports from the last or general admin.

The only time there was an issue was when a client asked to finish at lunchtime and cancelled the afternoon session. The trainer went home early and didn't tell anyone. The client was only 10 minutes walk away from the office so couldn't argue wasn't worth going back to the office . Client got billed for full day, complained and it came out that the trainer had snuck off for the afternoon. He wasn't working out anyway but that was the trigger for him to leave.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I did leave, my horse was colicking on the Sunday. I have £5k in cash on my desk and when I called my boss she came to my office and told me to go, hurry up, she put away my cash away etc and finished the rest of my shift.
I honestly could not ask for more… if I hadnt arrived in time BB would have died

That’s a great example of being able to leave with a supportive boss who clearly could take over for you. That seems completely reasonable, and a lovely boss.

In my colic situation, I didn’t feel like I could leave - it really was touch and go in the situation I was dealing with.

I asked our pro rider, who rides the horse regularly and knows her inside out, to represent me. The YO is trusted and very experienced, and the horse was on full livery specifically because I knew I had too much on at work at that point. Vet came, saw horse, YO and pro rider oversaw, horse wasn’t colicking but was uncomfortable on her sides and was later diagnosed with ulcers. Everyone kept me updated.

Neither of us were wrong in how we handled the situations. But for you to have stayed at work would have been, and for me to have left work would have been.

 

[windswoo]

absolutely nothing to do with lack of preparation on my part. Actually perhaps it is because if I had been responsible I would have emergency cover in place so I could attend our meeting. However it seems that the question of emergency cover hasn't been that popular on this thread and it is considered more of a right just not to go to work instead. I do find that hard to understand.

. . Also I am not under contract to you so nothing on the cancelled meetings front. Also nothing to do with disciplinary. Also the meeting was such that decisions were required. The emergency cover will sort out a vet etc etc so no animals will suffer.

. Simply someone didn't go to work because their horse has colic and it has affected a lot of people. . If you were in private practice would you bill your client?



.

Change colicing horse which you don't seem to care about, to child with meningitis are you going to attribute the same logic - that your emergency planning should be in place - good luck with that. I hope you haven't got children or animals. I'm not entitled to want to be with my animals if I think they are DYING, work can literally go to hell. Even though because I have an understanding manager it wouldn't be an issue anyway and I don't take the pee.
I don't understand how you seem to think it's ok for someone else to sort out something that you are responsible for. If you don't want to be with your animals when they are ill I pity them.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Some of you have never been far up sh*t creek without a paddle, and it shows

I've literally had safety net after safety net, or backup, fail before because at the end of the day, they were all human. Nothing wrong with having them in place, as I do, but with humans or life, nothing, aside from death (used to be taxes too, but there are evasions for that as it turns out) is 100%

You'd be surprised (or not) just how much things can go wrong in unthinkable ways. If employers could be a bit more understanding in respect to pet owners, it would leave more margin for error when it comes to back ups, and overall would be the decent thing to do. Sure, some lines must be drawn.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Here is another example….

My child had been taking febrile convulsions due to teething , he was 6 months old, there was no reason for it, his temperature would shoot up to over 100 degrees and he would fit. His little body just couldnt cope… I was luckily at home when it happened on the Saturday evening but my child stopped breathing and turned blue on the floor! 999 was already on their way but still took me 15 minutes of reviving my son and trying to keep him alive till they got there.
Did I call in sick for my shift the next day! Damn right I did!!! And id do it every time.