If I were to consider breeding a foal

[LadyGascoyne]

Mim’s breeder came over today and we got talking about my plans for Mim. Naturally, the ‘would you consider breeding from her’ question came up.

I wouldn’t risk Mim but her breeder suggested that she has a nice embryo transfer mare which we could use.

So that got me thinking, if I were ever to breed from her (and I’m not decided on that yet for lots of reasons), how would I go about selecting a stallion for her?

I would want to improve her shoulder and add more length of rein, and I’d want something a little less short-coupled. I’d want to add height but not much - she’s just about 15hh and I’d want 15.2/3hh - but without going lighter in type. I like her toughness and she’s incredibly sound and strong for a little Araby horse. I’d want to retain as much fineness in the head as possible without the rest of the horse becoming to flimsy. I don’t want anything hairy or too heavy.

Temperament is key - Mim is intelligent and feisty but never unsafe, and clever enough to get us out of trouble. She’s loyal and brave, and I like those qualities.

The foal should grow up to be a nice hack/ general all-rounder who is able to do some dressage but it doesn’t need to be a world beater. I don’t need to add expressive paces or fabulous extension - I prefer straight, sound and boring to fancy movement.

I’d wish for a chestnut foal but any solid colour is good - no greys or double dilutes. Mim is palomino, out of a chestnut tobiano, by a cremello stallion.







And I’m only musing - not throwing a baby shower yet!

 

[twiggy2]

Mim is so pretty but your wanting to change quite a lot in the foal and there are so many variables that the chances are the foal could be way off the mark for what you are wanting.
I have worked for many people over the years who have tried to breed the foal of their dreams, some of them have done huge mounts of research into all aspects of getting the ideal foal, some have tried more than once and honestly non of them have resulted jn the ideal foal and those that have been kept have not been ridden by the breeder for any length of time due to either being, too small, too sharp or too much horse.
One lady who I worked for for a few years tried three times and ended up with brood mares on loan who had a history of throwing a certain type and produced something very different for her.
She had a lovely Welsh D mare from old fashioned lines, she research and could find nothing over 14.3 ever produced in those lines, she used a very well known coloured stallion who again never sired anything over 15hh and he had been used over mares upto 16.2hh. The foal ended up at 17.2, she was stunning and gnatastic temperament but far too big for the breeder.
For me embryo transfer is messing too much with nature too but that's my personal thoughts and each to their own on that.
Personally I wouldn't do it.

 

[Clodagh]

I agree with Twiggy. Just buy one!

 

[blodwyn1]

I bred a foal from my first pony , she turned out way too much for me and was what I needed as a teenager. She also did not have a great temperament. I felt responsible for breeding her and kept her till she was nine but eventually had to sell her. She would be 32 now and I still worry about what happened to her.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I've bred a good number in the past, only 1 turned out exactly as I ordered having thrown back 2 generations to one side, tho the others were pretty good as things went. Such a lottery...
I completely agree with twiggy2 x

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Do you know Mim's status for all the genetic issues that Arabs (and their part breds) can have? LFS, CA etc... If she's a carrier for any of those then you would need to make sure that the stallion is negative. I would only want an Arab for her. Pick a chestnut and then you'll either have a chestnut or palomino foal.

I didn't breed from my chestnut mare and now really regret it as she's too old now.

 

[TheMule]

I agree with the above that your wish list is quite specific and would probably make me buy rather than breed.

I have bred one that is my absolute dream horse but all the others have either died or turned out unsuitable for one reason or another and, TBH, if he had come out exactly like his mother I would have been delighted. Yes, I am breeding another, but it's an addiction I haven’t found a cure for yet and there's no point dieing with all your money in the bank account, is there?! ?

 

[I'm Dun]

If you are wanting to breed and foal down yourself then go for it. If you are planning on breeding and having someone else foal down then buy a foal. Theres something very special about a homebred, but much less so if the home bred is actually bred and raised elsewhere IYSWIM?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Do you know Mim's status for all the genetic issues that Arabs (and their part breds) can have? LFS, CA etc... If she's a carrier for any of those then you would need to make sure that the stallion is negative. I would only want an Arab for her. Pick a chestnut and then you'll either have a chestnut or palomino foal.

I didn't breed from my chestnut mare and now really regret it as she's too old now.

This hence my chestnut Arab suggestions but because your want list is very specific you might be best off buying what you want.

Because as you know you can't breed to order as such and with Arab's they can be small even with 2 taller parents.

 

[maya2008]

I agree with the poster above about how having them born at home with you and watching them grow makes them special - no matter how their conformation/temperament turns out. Our surprise foal from last year is nothing like her dam in anything but markings. She takes after her unknown sire, who I suspect jumped into the field to do the deed as our little one jumps everything and anything - logs in the field, fences, water troughs…! She also must have his attitude, as her dam is sweet and gets on with anyone, yet we have this feisty, mischievous filly who tries to boss everyone around and is always causing trouble.

We also have one we bought - I got to pick size, temperament and build. She is perfect and very much as required. I would buy if I wanted something specific, as their personalities etc are pretty obvious at weaning.

 

[eggs]

As I'm sure you know, just because you can doesn't mean you should. Embryo transfer is still a pretty expensive way of breeding a foal and as you have a fairly extensive list of traits you want I would also agree with buying rather than breeding. I have bred a few foals myself and also bought a few and tbh I doubt very much I would have bought some of them as an adult riding horse if I had gone to try them.

 

[tda]

I think for me, you are trying to breed something that is not the type your mare is, you want something bigger/longer . What breed is she?
We breed trying to get the best of both parents, but sometimes you get the worst too ?
Plus ET is seriously expensive

 

[piebaldproblems]

I think she'd produce a lovely Anglo-Arab foal.... but (breeders on here correct me if I'm wrong) don't ET foals take after the transfer mare more than their dams, personality wise?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Fisrt foals are often small. My YO bred her lovely 15.2 mare to a 16.2 stallion to add height and ended up with a horse who is barely 15hh. She is also spooky as hell and nothing like either parent.
I am breeding Amber but mainly becaude I want to raise my own foal. I am not expecting a mini Amber from her.

 

[shortstuff99]

I'm an enabler and I say go for it. I would be tempted by a TB or PRE/Luso stallion, but that is me.

If not I saw an absolutely gorgeous 2 year old PRE filly in Spain this week who will be something special

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Hi everyone, thanks for the great replies.

I would only breed from Mim if I could find the right stallion for her, if she passed tests, if my vet was happy with her, if I could use the mare I am loaning for ET (she has already had two of her own foals), if I can afford ET, and if I have time.

So it’s not a case of leaping into anything, I don’t want anyone to worry. I just want to get a feel for what stallions are out there and whether there is anything that stands out as complementing Mim.

I can buy myself riding horses regardless so it wouldn’t really matter if the foal didn’t end up being as per a checklist but I don’t see the point in breeding from anything that won’t improve the mare. And as much as I love Mim, there are things to improve.

To answer some specific questions:

Mim is 80.2% Arab. Her dam is 95.7% Arab but has some pony blood way back in her bloodlines. Her sire is a PBA with Arab, Thoroughbred and British Riding Pony blood.

I would want the same type. When I describe things they may seem extreme but I’m envisioning minor, nuanced conformational improvements, where possible, not a change in type.

Mim is just about 15hh but she’s a small horse. Everything about her is petite. I’d like more horse, and a height around 15.2nd/15.3hh would be lovely but if it’s bigger or smaller that’s not a crisis. It’s not like we won’t have room!

Height wise, I would be using a mare who has had two foals previously so would that still qualify as a ‘first foal’ in terms of being small? I’d imagine that the genetics have little to do with height of a first foal but perhaps, if it is true that they are smaller, it’s about the physical accommodation?

I like the idea of an Arab but I’d want to ensure the specific horse was more the old fashioned type - chunky and not showy. And I’d want it to have a better shoulder with longer length of rein, and not to be too short-coupled.

I’d consider an Iberian type but again would have to balance the compactness against Mim’s conformation.

An Anglo-Arab could be an option but I don’t see too many around?

 

[shortstuff99]

I'm not sure what Arabs do but all registered PRE stallions have a page where they show whether they give better length of neck, or chest etc which is really useful for when improving mares.

For example

 

[Meowy Catkin]

If you look beyond the show/halter bred arabs there is a lot of choice. It's always fun looking at stallions even if you decide to not go ahead after all.

Eg:

https://shadwellarabian.co.uk/stallions/handassa/

or

https://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/french-arabian-at-stud/

 

[Meowy Catkin]

RE Anglo-arab stallions, Biddesden stud had two last time I looked (Persiflage and All That Jazz) but they were bay.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Oh my goodness that first chestnut is absolutely gorgeous @Meowy Catkin

I’ll have a look at Biddesden too, I love bays.

Chestnut, bay, black, palomino or buckskin/ dun would all be great.

I found some ideas on Google of types I like



Crabbet, Gidran and Shagya mainly.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Toman is a lovely stallion

Jean Peck had a huge chestnut stallion she bred with I think he died a few years ago but they still may have frozen.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Another is Marcus Aurelius he does a bit of everything a very versatile type.

 

[Cloball]

Hispano Arab stallions?
https://www.caballohispanoarabe.com/catalogo-de-reproductores-ha/

 

[Snow Falcon]

I like breeding but there are no guarantees. Last one I bred was the mares 3rd foal and probably the smallest. Her 2nd foal I didn't particularly like and sold her as a 4yo. I still have the weanling, now a 7yo, I bought to keep her company.

 

[Hackback]

https://www.facebook.com/crabbetarabianstallion/

I have no idea if this link will work but it's to the Crabbet stallion Dhay. I would love one of his foals

 

[LadyGascoyne]

https://shadwellarabian.co.uk/stallions/handassa/

I really like this one!

Dhay is absolutely beautiful but only 15hh.

Marcus Aurelius is lovely too but 15.1hh.

 

[Cloball]

All of the Arab stallions I like are only about 14.2 ? Mim and Marbon masterpiece would make a lovely (dinky) foal.

 

[SilverLinings]

If you look beyond the show/halter bred arabs there is a lot of choice. It's always fun looking at stallions even if you decide to not go ahead after all.

Eg:

https://shadwellarabian.co.uk/stallions/handassa/

/

MC I haven't seen an Arab like that for years, he's lovely! I went off Arabs quite a bit about 10-15yrs ago when locally all I started to see were ones with the more extreme seahorse heads (apologies to anyone who likes them but I really don't), but I really love the more old fashioned type of stamp with the less extreme dish to the face. One of the Connemara's I have now has a very high % of desert-bred Arab blood (introduced into the breed 1890's-1920's ish) and looks very much like the pictures of one of Lady Wentworth's Arab stallions back in the 1920s/30s. I am planning to look for something with a higher % of Arab blood the next time I buy, but having seen the stallion above I would consider full Arab if it looked like that!

Sorry LG for going off-topic, although I will add that Mim is absolutely lovely, and your posts about her (and the pictures of some of the Arabs owned by other HHOers) have definitely made me interested in Arabs again .

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Jean Peck's stallion was Dervatiw Gwyddion he was over 16h I don't have any idea if they can still use him for breeding though.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

The only other really big stallion I like is Final Shadow but his dark bay and in the middle East now alot of the Arab's I like are smaller.