If I were to consider breeding a foal

[AmyMay]

Unless you plan to go racing, using that as a guide isn't a lot of use. Race horses are not designed for riding, they're made to go extremely fast, on the forehand, that's all. You need a sire with a big, open frame and balanced conformation, fore and aft.

Such as,

https://langallerfarm.co.uk/stallions/langaller-starring-role-gb/

 

[Cortez]

Such as,

https://langallerfarm.co.uk/stallions/langaller-starring-role-gb/

Yup, he'll do ?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Such as,

https://langallerfarm.co.uk/stallions/langaller-starring-role-gb/

His lovely ?

 

[LadyGascoyne]

But he’s a 16.2hh Irish Sports Horse/ Thb/ Warmblood mix?

No doubt, he’s a beautiful, quality horse but he is the opposite of Mim’s type.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I would rather use something with a bit more bone and substance than a fine athletic type for Mim but I like a more substantial horse in general ?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

But he’s a 16.2hh Irish Sports Horse/ Thb/ Warmblood mix?

No doubt, he’s a beautiful, quality horse but he is the opposite of Mim’s type.

I know what you mean but I suppose it totally depends on what you want, if you put something very similar to her you will end up with something similar.

Because you said she is very petite and wanted something bigger I would use something bigger to add that or you will just end up with another Mim.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I’d want to keep as similar as possible - I don’t want a different type of horse to Mim. I do want to find a stallion that could improve her weaker points and add a bit of height. But we are talking a couple of inches at most. Mim is very short-coupled and that has the effect of her being a very small horse all round. I’d like to breed something like Mim, ideally less short-coupled, with bit more length of rein. A bit more horse in front of the girth groove would be nice.

This is not a horse for Andrea to ride and compete on, and for me to ride at clinics etc. That I am in the process of purchasing and that will be Iberian (or at the very least Baroque type).

This would be about preserving Mim’s lines and having something for the future that is from her.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I feel like I should apologise for putting the photo of Handassa on your thread because it has derailed it. Sorry about that. I was hoping to show that there are taller arabs out there, especially if you look beyond the 'halter bred' lines. My chestnut mare is by a Russian race bred arab and out of a TB, so that's why I thought about race bred stallions. I'm sure there are lots of others with better conformation out there, the ones I find are always grey though and I know you don't want a grey.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I feel like I should apologise for putting the photo of Handassa on your thread because it has derailed it. Sorry about that. I was hoping to show that there are taller arabs out there, especially if you look beyond the 'halter bred' lines. My chestnut mare is by a Russian race bred arab and out of a TB, so that's why I thought about race bred stallions. I'm sure there are lots of others with better conformation out there, the ones I find are always grey though and I know you don't want a grey.

I like him, and I like the type of Arab he is. I prefer it to the show Arabs but do like the Crabbets too although they are smaller. It was really useful to see him, so don’t apologise at all.

He actually reminded me of my beloved Lady Gascoyne in some ways. Although she was full Thb and 15.2hh on her tip toes.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

http://arabianstallionguide.com/index.php

I've not seen this before but it might be helpful.

ETA - not as helpful as I hoped, there's only a few stallions on there currently.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I am not trying to be too critical and I did misunderstand what you were trying to breed I thought you were wanting something bigger for yourself.

I would try and find a pure or part bred arab as best put together as you can, some of the old Russian polish lines can be bigger and not your typical show type Arab.

You could always speak to Mims breeder about what she would suggest to use.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Don’t worry at all, all criticism is very welcome - it’s a very serious decision to make.

I’d like to be able to ride the horse but I can ride Mim now, even though she’s tiny. I wouldn’t be breeding a riding horse for myself, I will be buying that. But actually, riding means very little to me.

I’d be breeding only to improve Mim rather than breed something with similar weaknesses to her.

If the foal was something like Fame’s Dakota, I’d be very pleased. But I would prefer solid coloured to patchy. I will ask her breeder but would prefer to do some research first.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Because I can’t seem to update this post without the site reloading, Horse would be to keep and if I can ride it, great, but if it’s a bit small then we will find a rider for it, as we’ve done with Mim.

 

[Cortez]

Don’t worry at all, all criticism is very welcome - it’s a very serious decision to make.

I’d like to be able to ride the horse but I can ride Mim now, even though she’s tiny. I wouldn’t be breeding a riding horse for myself, I will be buying that. But actually, riding means very little to me.

I’d be breeding only to improve Mim rather than breed something with similar weaknesses to her.

If the foal was something like Fame’s Dakota, I’d be very pleased. But I would prefer solid coloured to patchy. I will ask her breeder but would prefer to do some research first.

View attachment 90182

I'm quite confused as to what you actually want to achieve by breeding your mare, other than to have her genes (she is, I believe, part bred Arab, is that correct?). Your list of "improvements" is far too long for it to be possible to achieve all of them.

The horse pictured above is of strong warmblood type (look past the colour, unless it's colour you want?) and wouldn't be my choice to put on your mare (although he is nice, other than the colour, but I'm not interested in such notions); far too different in type and I don't think he would compliment her.

P.S. ANY foal out of your mare is extremely unlikely to be anything like Fame's Dakota.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I'm going to come off totally rude here, but...

Are Mim's lines worth preserving? Is there something special about her breeding? If she has so much that needs to be "corrected" then I'd consider why I'd want to breed at all. A stallion does not/cannot always correct everything. You could end up with nearly a carbon copy of Mim. If you're fine with that, then that's fine. I just don't like when people breed their mares because of some emotional attachment without realizing the foal could be so far from what they envision. It also sounds like you want her type, but you don't, at the same time. So I'm a bit confused.

I'm a bit in the fence about these types of breedings. We have so many horses in the world right now, I personally won't contribute to that number with such a gamble (it's always a gamble but I prefer to have the best odds). Sure, people say "but they'd have a home for life with me" would they really? No one can guarantee that. So much could happen. Breeding can also come with great heartache. It doesn't always, but I just don't want people breeding with rose colored glasses. I don't know why I'm such an odd stickler about this stuff, and people can totally disregard my opinion. I just feel as though people have to breed it because it can be bred sometimes, and the "dream" of saying that one has a homebred. Quite frankly there are people out there breeding that have no business doing so.

However, if you're genuinely accepting of the fact that things can go awry and that you could end up with the opposite of what you're wishing for, then fair enough. It is ultimately your money, your horse, and your mental state ? but my point is, just because you like your mare well enough, doesn't mean you have to breed her.

Apologies for being so rude, this is just something I feel passionate about. I'd say this to anyone, not just you. I know some people feel as though this is the only way they can afford or get a quality horse/the type they want, but I do wish that we'd be a bit more careful at times. You've got to be careful with emotions when breeding.

Mim is still young, yes? So you definitely have time to think about it and time to look around.

I have mixed feelings on using a recipient mare. I understand why some do it for a performance mare that is competing and whatnot but sometimes it feels as though the life of your horse is so valuable that it cannot be risked, but the life of this recipient mare isn't so valuable, so risking it is fine. It just devalues another living being, IMO, but I guess we (and animals) all have our place in this world.

Anyway, my opinion is worth the piece of paper that it's written on ? I just want people to really be thoughtful and a bit objective on the matter.

 

[ihatework]

A random mix of further thoughts in no particular order.

Is her type, and are her genetics, strong enough to consider breeding from her yet? For me thats dubious, she is lovely, and I'm not saying don't breed, but maybe consider she should prove herself sound under saddle, and trainable when things get tougher, for an extended duration?

Using a surrogate. This has a huge influence on the foal and temprementally the foal would take more from the surrogate than it will from Mim. Also uterus size and prior foals has a not insignificant bearing on the size of the offspring (in addition to the genetics), so bear that in mind.

Embryo transfer does add cost. If things go well and they take first time, in the grand scheme of things its not a big cost. But if tou go multiple cycles, which you may have to do if you aren't using a surrogate herd but infact trying for a particular surrogate to use then this could mount up.

In terms of stallion selection for me, a far bigger consideration is what they throw. Are they consistent in adding specific traits? This generally means it would be sensible to consider older stallions, with lots of stock, who are proven to stamp their stock in favourable ways. Its fine if you are a big breeder, but for hobby amatuer breeders (for which I'm one) it's better to at least try and stack the odds in your favour.

How is this foal going to be bought up? I cannot stress how much you need to consider the right environment. If you are going to create that at home it will probably mean buying/loaning/livery for other youngstock. Yes people do successfully raise foals in non ideal situations, but it's not something I personally feel is right, especially in pre-planned situations.

The liklihood is you won't breed what you want! If you do, great, consider yourself lucky. So this is really an emotional journey and investment. And on the whole it's an amazing journey! But an ET from a young unproven mare, using a surrogate you have no real connection to just doesn't seem like the right move. Personally, I'd enjoy Mim for what she is now and take a foal from her in a few years, naturally.

But thats just my thoughts.

 

[ihatework]

I see we are all thinking along similar lines!

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I wouldn’t anticipate the foal having all the improvements. They aren’t a list of requirements but a list of things where Mim’s build could be improved and I would prefer not to compound any faults by not taking them into account. I am considering minor improvements to Mim’s existing conformation, not a completely different horse.

I think I’ve communicated it badly because everyone seems to be seeing this as a wish list for a horse, and I mean it to be a number of factors that would inform stallion choice.

The aim of having a foal from Mim would be to preserve her lines (you’d have to meet her to understand what a super little horse she is) but also to have our own foal, from the start, and enjoy that journey.

Mim will be going out and about this year and next, and won’t have a foal until she’s had a bit of a ridden career and may do some showing. Mim is graded premium with SPSS.

Fames Dakota is Mim’s breeder’s stallion and is 99.7% Arab, and 15.2hh. I’d prefer a solid coloured horse myself so didn’t have him high up on the list but that’s just a personal preference and it’s not something I couldn’t be swayed on for the right horse.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

A random mix of further thoughts in no particular order.

Is her type, and are her genetics, strong enough to consider breeding from her yet? For me thats dubious, she is lovely, and I'm not saying don't breed, but maybe consider she should prove herself sound under saddle, and trainable when things get tougher, for an extended duration?

Using a surrogate. This has a huge influence on the foal and temprementally the foal would take more from the surrogate than it will from Mim. Also uterus size and prior foals has a not insignificant bearing on the size of the offspring (in addition to the genetics), so bear that in mind.

Embryo transfer does add cost. If things go well and they take first time, in the grand scheme of things its not a big cost. But if tou go multiple cycles, which you may have to do if you aren't using a surrogate herd but infact trying for a particular surrogate to use then this could mount up.

In terms of stallion selection for me, a far bigger consideration is what they throw. Are they consistent in adding specific traits? This generally means it would be sensible to consider older stallions, with lots of stock, who are proven to stamp their stock in favourable ways. Its fine if you are a big breeder, but for hobby amatuer breeders (for which I'm one) it's better to at least try and stack the odds in your favour.

How is this foal going to be bought up? I cannot stress how much you need to consider the right environment. If you are going to create that at home it will probably mean buying/loaning/livery for other youngstock. Yes people do successfully raise foals in non ideal situations, but it's not something I personally feel is right, especially in pre-planned situations.

The liklihood is you won't breed what you want! If you do, great, consider yourself lucky. So this is really an emotional journey and investment. And on the whole it's an amazing journey! But an ET from a young unproven mare, using a surrogate you have no real connection to just doesn't seem like the right move. Personally, I'd enjoy Mim for what she is now and take a foal from her in a few years, naturally.

But thats just my thoughts.

Thanks, super thoughts. Lots to consider.

Writing and saving as I go due to forum bug.

On logistics Mim’s breeder is planning to use the mare that we currently have as a companion for Mim as an ET mare in the future. She has had foals previously, and is a lovely, sweet mare. So the mare isn’t random to us, she’s with us at the moment.

If we went through with it, we’d have two mares at home, due around the same date. There is a possibility that one of those mares could be Mim’s dam. The other would be our companion mare. My plan would be to have both foals at home, and once weaned, the mares would go back and the foals could stay.

When foals are less breakable, they would go out with the herd. That would include Mim, depending on the sex of the foals.

But logistics are way down the line - I first want to see if there are any stallions out there that I would even consider breeding to Mim.

 

[milliepops]

Much of the joy, for me, of breeding my own was seeing my mare interact with her offspring. i understand the rationale for ET but as this sounds like a pet project rather than the start of a serious breeding operation you might want to consider if that's important to you. ET is out of my budget anyway, but for me, breeding for myself for fairly sentimental reasons, I enjoyed that close connection.
on a personal level, if i could afford an ET foal then i'd be better off buying a young horse that met the criteria i was hoping for, frankly.

My homebred has brought out some lovely elements of both parents, and some curveballs (where has the, erm, old fashioned face come from, when both parents had such a refined one?! haha)

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Much of the joy, for me, of breeding my own was seeing my mare interact with her offspring. i understand the rationale for ET but as this sounds like a pet project rather than the start of a serious breeding operation you might want to consider if that's important to you. ET is out of my budget anyway, but for me, breeding for myself for fairly sentimental reasons, I enjoyed that close connection.
on a personal level, if i could afford an ET foal then i'd be better off buying a young horse that met the criteria i was hoping for, frankly.

My homebred has brought out some lovely elements of both parents, and some curveballs (where has the, erm, old fashioned face come from, when both parents had such a refined one?! haha)

Yes, I have considered that Mim having her own foal is something very special. I haven’t ruled it out but do have a future ET mare standing in my field so it did seem like the opportunity had presented itself quite independently of my concerns for Mim.

I think my order of thinking is:

Do I think there is a stallion out there who would suit Mim? If there isn’t, there really isn’t any point to breeding.

Then, where is Mim in her life, schooling, competing, health - and what would the optimal point for her to be put in foal?

Then, what are the logistics around ET/ carrying her own foal/ our other mares/ if her dam does come to us etc.

Then, what does that cost, and do I have the time with work etc.

Ps I loved Salty’s foal!

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I'm going to come off totally rude here, but...

Are Mim's lines worth preserving? Is there something special about her breeding? If she has so much that needs to be "corrected" then I'd consider why I'd want to breed at all. A stallion does not/cannot always correct everything. You could end up with nearly a carbon copy of Mim. If you're fine with that, then that's fine. I just don't like when people breed their mares because of some emotional attachment without realizing the foal could be so far from what they envision. It also sounds like you want her type, but you don't, at the same time. So I'm a bit confused.

I'm a bit in the fence about these types of breedings. We have so many horses in the world right now, I personally won't contribute to that number with such a gamble (it's always a gamble but I prefer to have the best odds). Sure, people say "but they'd have a home for life with me" would they really? No one can guarantee that. So much could happen. Breeding can also come with great heartache. It doesn't always, but I just don't want people breeding with rose colored glasses. I don't know why I'm such an odd stickler about this stuff, and people can totally disregard my opinion. I just feel as though people have to breed it because it can be bred sometimes, and the "dream" of saying that one has a homebred. Quite frankly there are people out there breeding that have no business doing so.

However, if you're genuinely accepting of the fact that things can go awry and that you could end up with the opposite of what you're wishing for, then fair enough. It is ultimately your money, your horse, and your mental state ? but my point is, just because you like your mare well enough, doesn't mean you have to breed her.

Apologies for being so rude, this is just something I feel passionate about. I'd say this to anyone, not just you. I know some people feel as though this is the only way they can afford or get a quality horse/the type they want, but I do wish that we'd be a bit more careful at times. You've got to be careful with emotions when breeding.

Mim is still young, yes? So you definitely have time to think about it and time to look around.

I have mixed feelings on using a recipient mare. I understand why some do it for a performance mare that is competing and whatnot but sometimes it feels as though the life of your horse is so valuable that it cannot be risked, but the life of this recipient mare isn't so valuable, so risking it is fine. It just devalues another living being, IMO, but I guess we (and animals) all have our place in this world.

Anyway, my opinion is worth the piece of paper that it's written on ? I just want people to really be thoughtful and a bit objective on the matter.

No don’t worry about being rude - it makes for an interesting and diverse thread

 

[tristar]

Oh my goodness that first chestnut is absolutely gorgeous @Meowy Catkin

I’ll have a look at Biddesden too, I love bays.

Chestnut, bay, black, palomino or buckskin/ dun would all be great.

I found some ideas on Google of types I like

View attachment 89974

Crabbet, Gidran and Shagya mainly.

was that top left stallion lady anne lyttons mesaoud? one of my favourites

someone i know had a foal by marcus aurelius who was LFS, so check that out

 

[LadyGascoyne]

was that top left stallion lady anne lyttons mesaoud? one of my favourites

someone i know had a foal by marcus aurelius who was LFS, so check that out

Yes he is! Isn’t he fantastic.

Really good to know about MA.

 

[KittenInTheTree]

What about a nice Connemara? That might give you the boost in height and athleticism you're talking about.

 

[HashRouge]

Marcus Aurelius is really smashing, and I know they've evented him, so really handy. Possibly not quite tall enough for what you want though? I'm a tall girl who likes to ride Arabs, so have been very lucky with my current share horse, who is purebred and 16hh. His sire is a US halter-bred stallion though, so very different type to MA and probably not what I would choose if I was trying to breed for performance. My share horse is very pretty, but not especially handy or athletic! Of stallions I know of in the UK, I like Mukhtar Ibn Eternity too, but I think he's really quite small so wouldn't be much help. I think H Tobago would have suited her, but a bit late in the day for that sadly!

 

[tristar]

check out the arab horse societies pba section for stallions

mim is turning out very well i particularly like her quarters, decent length level croup, i would use arab cross something stallion

have a look on sport horse G B website, i know i was going to put our pre,x arab,x tb, stallion on there at one time, and during the convo it was expressed they were keen on encouraging as many different types as poss to get graded

 

[tristar]

if you like the real riding type arabs, take a look at the polish arab, the late great comet, but he is grey, if you can get that blood into your foal even though several generations ago, he could still be an influencing factor, and if mim had a filly who knows one day you may want to breed on further

see what you think of comet

 

[Cortez]

If you have access to your mare's dam, and want to preserve the line, why don't you breed a foal out of the mare? If the sire is still active you could even breed a full sibling?

 

[Caol Ila]

I don't know a thing about breeding, but does breeding a mare to a stallion who 'corrects' her conformational faults actually give you a foal that's an improvement on the mare? I've read that before, but my rough comprehension of genetics and inheritence suggests that it's a total crapshoot. Like if I'd wanted to breed my very long-backed, loose-coupled mare, I would have chosen a short-coupled stallion with a strong back. As I understand it, my foal might inherit his dam's long back. He might inherit his sire's short back. He might end up somewhere in between. Who knows? It's not a guaranteed way to get a horse that improves my horse's conformational shortcomings. Obviously you want to hedge your bets and not breed something that has the same or similar faults as your mare, but you might get them anyway.

Is that correct?