inconsiderate whip use at badminton

[Over2You]

Hmmm, well now - I quite like to watch American Football and would have played it given half a chance - it's a game of chess coupled with constructed violence. One of the most longlived players of all time is a guy called Bret Farve - he played an unbelievable number of consecutive games despite taking fantastic hits pretty regularly - he has been quoted as saying that he likes to get a few bashes early in the game to wake him up!

This all fine and dandy for a ( so called ) thinking person to indulge in gladatorial sport - but placing a horse in similar circumstances is far from humane and belies this country's reputation as being a nation of horse lovers and I'm amazed that eventing hasn't raised more public outrage than it has.

Luckily - and it is mostly luck - the number of horses killed at events is less than racing, this is largely because of better qualifying procedures and the fact that horses are traveling slower; however; the obstacles are infinitely more dangerous so when things go wrong they usually go badly wrong. When evaluating the relevant problems - what happens off course must be taken into account and there are many horse deaths at qualifying events to consider. Human ego is to blame in most of these tradegies - many owners like the idea of a horse in the Grand National who should never be anywhere near Aintree fences and with eventing prize money and sponsorship at dizzying levels the risks are there too.

Very well said! I also wonder how popular Crufts and the annual dog agility at Olympia would be if the dogs received a 'reminder' or umpteen of them. Or if coaches/trainers got out the whip to 'wake-up' their athletes running in the 10,000 metre event.

I had actually begun to see the argument for using a whip to keep a horse straight in racing, but my mind was very quickly changed after seeing this video. Upon seeing the whip, several horses in the video veered away/spooked, and ended-up endangering the other runners by crossing their paths. One actually caught the leg of another and almost brought him down. And with all those whips waving about, two horses were smacked in the face. One horse even took a crashing fall after becoming more fixated on the whip than the fence. The races in the video took place over a period of just a few days. Imagine how often such things happen over the course of a year!

 

[skewbald_again]

Very well said! I also wonder how popular Crufts and the annual dog agility at Olympia would be if the dogs received a 'reminder' or umpteen of them. Or if coaches/trainers got out the whip to 'wake-up' their athletes running in the 10,000 metre event.

I had actually begun to see the argument for using a whip to keep a horse straight in racing, but my mind was very quickly changed after seeing this video. Upon seeing the whip, several horses in the video veered away/spooked, and ended-up endangering the other runners by crossing their paths. One actually caught the leg of another and almost brought him down. And with all those whips waving about, two horses were smacked in the face. One horse even took a crashing fall after becoming more fixated on the whip than the fence. The races in the video took place over a period of just a few days. Imagine how often such things happen over the course of a year!

What a load of shoe menders. Firstly, we are discussing eventing, not racing so three parts of it is irrelevant.
Secondly, this wholly daft 'what if it was people' rubbish is beginning to grate. It isn't, it's horses, OK? They're not people. They're the ones with four legs and hairy faces.
Do you even know how top event horses live? Have you, for example, ever strapped a fit horse? Do you think they'd trade a couple of slaps round the well muscled, arm jarringly hard arse to come and live at La La DIY Livery Yard at the mercy of a bunch of incompetent do gooders? I think not.

 

[amandap]

Very well said! I also wonder how popular Crufts and the annual dog agility at Olympia would be if the dogs received a 'reminder' or umpteen of them. Or if coaches/trainers got out the whip to 'wake-up' their athletes running in the 10,000 metre event.

I think school sports day would be good... NOT

I had actually begun to see the argument for using a whip to keep a horse straight in racing, but my mind was very quickly changed after seeing this video.

I will never, ever see the argument for using a whip (or hitting full stop) to hurt a horse or other animal as part of 'motivation' or even safety and especially in an event for which horses (and humans) are supposed to be trained. Someone hitting me would definititely not encourage me. It might scare me but I would then feel resentment, repeated whipping would make me feel, 'what's the point, I'm gonna get whipped anyway and I still have no idea why'. How is whipping gonna make a horse enjoy what they are doing and really want to do it again and again?
I may well not have been round Badmington or on a racecourse but I know from my own horses that hitting and whipping isn't necessary. Horses are similar in their feelings and senses no matter what breed or dicipline.

If horses are trying to 'run out' or need 'motivating' shouldn't we be looking at why rather than just hitting them to make sure they do it? Surely that would be safer than relying on a little bit of stick and pain? Perhaps fences are too big, too dangerous, too much?

Mta... I'm talking in general here not about one incident of whipping. To me we look at this all the wrong way round and start defending our heros and sport we love but that stops us seeing clearly and seeing ways we can improve things.

 

[skewbald_again]

I think school sports day would be good... NOT

....

If horses are trying to 'run out' or need 'motivating' shouldn't we be looking at why rather than just hitting them to make sure they do it? Surely that would be safer than relying on a little bit of stick and pain? Perhaps fences are too big, too dangerous, too much?

Well by your reasoning, we should put them in house teams, make sure their dad takes the day off to watch, and give a creme egg to the winner, and that would sort it.

 

[Jesstickle]

I don't like the horses are people argument, however,

even people respond to a slap as a pick me up. Or the equivalent at least. If I'm falling asleep in a meeting I'll pinch myself on the arm or bite the inside of my cheek to wake myself up.

If I'm running a long way (which I don't any more as my knee is effed) I'd mentally shake myself down if I got tired and occasionally slap the tops of my arms.

If it works for me why wouldn't it work for a horse?

And again, those whips don't hurt. Like I said before I've been walloped with them. Unless horses feel more pain than me all they are getting is a bit of a shock. The noise padded whips make probably has far more effect than any 'pain' inflicted.

Are all you people this soft in real life. Do you allow your dogs and children to just do what they want at all times? Is it your horrible children I see in supermarkets rearranging the shelves and opening all the food because you can't tell them 'no', you have to ask them why they're doing it?

 

[amandap]

I don't like the horses are people argument, however,

even people respond to a slap as a pick me up. Or the equivalent at least. If I'm falling asleep in a meeting I'll pinch myself on the arm or bite the inside of my cheek to wake myself up.

If I'm running a long way (which I don't any more as my knee is effed) I'd mentally shake myself down if I got tired and occasionally slap the tops of my arms.

If it works for me why wouldn't it work for a horse?

Yes, it might work for you but don't forget you are doing it to yourself?

Why don't you like the horses and people argument? To me horses are another animal (like us) that live, breathe and feel just the same as we do?
I like to think, would I like that? It keeps me grounded and remembering that horses really are sentient beings with feelings not some machine to press the accelerator or slam on the brakes when things get hairy.

 

[skewbald_again]

Yes, it might work for you but don't forget you are doing it to yourself?

Why don't you like the horses and people argument? To me horses are another animal (like us) that live, breathe and feel just the same as we do?
I like to think, would I like that? It keeps me grounded and remembering that horses really are sentient beings with feelings not some machine to press the accelerator or slam on the brakes when things get hairy.

Would I like to scarf down half a pound of chicken ****, jump in a smelly pond, and try to shag a hairy blanket from Oxfam? No, but it ticks all the boxes for my labrador.

I am not a dog. He is not a person.

 

[amandap]

Would I like to scarf down half a pound of chicken ****, jump in a smelly pond, and try to shag a hairy blanket from Oxfam? No, but it ticks all the boxes for my labrador.

I am not a dog. He is not a person.

He may not be a human (person) and has his own individual species likes and dislikes but are you seriously saying that because he likes muddy ponds etc. he doesn't feel pain, fear, etc.

 

[Jesstickle]

Yes, it might work for you but don't forget you are doing it to yourself?

Why don't you like the horses and people argument? To me horses are another animal (like us) that live, breathe and feel just the same as we do?
I like to think, would I like that? It keeps me grounded and remembering that horses really are sentient beings with feelings not some machine to press the accelerator or slam on the brakes when things get hairy.

They don't feel just the same as us. We are a rather peculiar species as we have the capacity to plan and to assign consequences and think what if. Horses and other mammals tend not to do that. Please bear that in mind when you are busy anthropomorphising your horses and dogs. You horse wouldn't worry too much about knocking you out of the way if he was in danger so don't worry too much about hurting his feelings.

And believe me, I'd gladly let someone else pinch me to keep me awake, I think it would work better, I also think other people might notice at that point!

If you want a human example of how this works why not look at military situations. In a war zone you do as your told or you get killed. If you don't do as your told and you endanger your comrades you get a severe dressing down. I fail to see much difference and I don't overly have a problem with either.

 

[alligator40]

Would I like to scarf down half a pound of chicken ****, jump in a smelly pond, and try to shag a hairy blanket from Oxfam? No, but it ticks all the boxes for my labrador.

I am not a dog. He is not a person.

ROFLROFL

you're on jolly good form S_A

 

[skewbald_again]

He may not be a human (person) and has his own individual species likes and dislikes but are you seriously saying that because he likes muddy ponds etc. he doesn't feel pain, fear, etc.

No, I'm saying he feels everything differently than I do.

 

[Noodlebug]

Would I like to scarf down half a pound of chicken ****, jump in a smelly pond, and try to shag a hairy blanket from Oxfam? No, but it ticks all the boxes for my labrador.

I am not a dog. He is not a person.

 

[heidiharvsnroo]

If horses are trying to 'run out' or need 'motivating' shouldn't we be looking at why rather than just hitting them to make sure they do it? Surely that would be safer than relying on a little bit of stick and pain? Perhaps fences are too big, too dangerous, too much?

Some horses run out simply because they can!

My last horse was a seasoned jumped but he used to take the pi** with me when I started jumping because he knew he could. And it all came down to me being frightened to give him a tap on his shoulder with my crop 3 strides before the jump, or in the middle of a double.

Once I'd sussed that and accepted from my friend (his owner) that it was a case of being firm but fair, he never refused, never ran our and 9 times out of 10 we'd finish in the top 3 of our class.

He might have gotten a bit tired towards the last jump but I'd still ask him to do it! I get tired on the last mile of a run but I still make myself go. If the horse is fit, healthy then asking it to carry on that little bit more is not unreasonable in my eyes.

The reason I retired my horse was because I could tell he wasn't 100% any more and didn't want to push him. Now he hacks and does a small jump course once every month (normally free schooled) to keep him going and he loves it. You can see him smiling all the way round!

 

[amandap]

They don't feel just the same as us. We are a rather peculiar species as we have the capacity to plan and to assign consequences and think what if. Horses and other mammals tend not to do that. Please bear that in mind when you are busy anthropomorphising your horses and dogs. You horse wouldn't worry too much about knocking you out of the way if he was in danger so don't worry too much about hurting his feelings.

And believe me, I'd gladly let someone else pinch me to keep me awake, I think it would work better, I also think other people might notice at that point!

If you want a human example of how this works why not look at military situations. In a war zone you do as your told or you get killed. If you don't do as your told and you endanger your comrades you get a severe dressing down. I fail to see much difference and I don't overly have a problem with either.

We as humans may have the capacity to control other species and different strengths in our brain capacity but that doesn't automaticallty mean that horses and other mammals don't feel emotion, physical pain, have excellent memories and the ability to learn. We train horses because they learn readily and remember their lessons well don't we?
I don't equate sport or pleasure pursuits the same way as war myself. Human conflict is a subject all it's own.

Horses have skin with nerves leading to the brain, horses can feel a fly land on their coat, horses have ears, noses and whiskers to smell, hear and sense danger and goodies and keep themselves safe. We have all these things, why on earth should we assume we 'feel' things any differently? I just don't get it...
There are many anecdotal stoires of horses 'sensing' stuff long before we can if we ever do and they certainly have better hearing and sense of smell than us.
Just because they don't express pain as overtly as we do (don't forget horses rarely cry out in pain as a human or dog would) is it fair and right of us to assume they don't feel it? Horses being a prey animal are programmed to hide weakness and pain but I certainly do not want to assume they don't feel it in the same or similar way we do.

You might be happy to be pinched but not me, so how do you know horses are like you and not me?

 

[charlie76]

My suggestion, for anyone questioning Mark Todds ability and judgement, is to email him with your concerns and offer to train him between now and 2012 olympics, I am sure he will be knocking your door down!

 

[Walrus]

Havn't read the whole thread, just skimmed bits of it. Cannot actually believe what I am reading. Probably the greatest eventer of several generations (he spans a few ) gives his adrenaline filled horse and couple of "focus" slaps with a stick jumping round one of the toughest XC courses on the planet and he's slated for it??????? The horse got home, passed the vet the next day and then came out with enough energy to win the flipping event! Not bad for a beaten and whipped horse, I bet it quakes in its boots whenever Mark Todd enters the stable! I tell you, if I had as much horsemanship as Mark Todd does in his little finger I'd be a happy bunny. Go and protest about something that actually needs it like live export or something.

 

[Vizslak]

Whilst I am initially highly amused by this thread I do also find it rather worrying at some peoples thoughts and attitudes! I mean really? Bloody Mark Todd eh...what a terrible horseman You are clearly off your trolleys!
I would also like to offer those who think a horse should never be smacked to come and ride my horse (by no means a 4* eventer) and see how you get on without a stick. I will video it and then we can post it on here.

 

[sakura]

I haven't read all the pages, but seriously?

I agree with the above points, Mark Todd is an amazing horseman, I only wish I could have as much talent as he has in his little finger!

I was at Badminton, his horse was tired yes but he soon bounced back to pull out a fantastic, tense clear round on monday. He left his back legs going through the quarry, Mark let him recover well then gave him a tap to wake him up and make sure they got over the final element safely

Would you rather a horse who wasn't fully switched on was allowed to attempt the last element, standing a good chance of leaving his front legs and likely causing a rotational fall resulting in potentially fatal injuries to both horse and rider? I've seen that happen to far less accomplished horses. A horse needs to be switched on going xc, especially a course like badminton! They're not machines, sometimes their focus wanders from where it's meant to be. Mark Todd did everything right, I thought he rode brilliantly through there

Honestly ...... whatever next?

 

[Nocturnal]

LMFAO at some of the weirdos who frequent this forum!! Can't believe anyone could criticise the way Mark Todd rode on Sunday... he did everything right, he was fantastic!

Suggest you strange people who think otherwise look up Nevzorov... you'd have a lot in common!

 

[skewbald_again]

well I hope those who haven't read the whole thread have noted that some of us said the same thing some pages back

 

[Kal]

Do you know what is really harming our sport?

It's not giving our horses a smack or a tug or asking that extra little bit out of them, but it's all you so called ''do gooders''.

Do you see other sports where the amateurs slate the top class pros. Yes you might get the odd 'oh he messed up there' or 'i wouldn't have done it that way' that's human nature and it's doesn't go any further.

But our sport is now reaching the media, weather it's in racing, eventing etc. It is being questioned if it should stay in the olympics. All these ''do gooders'' are ripping the sport apart and giving them amunition to get rid of it. We should be proud of our sport and support it in every way.

I would give my right arm to be like the pros but i don't have that gift or money so i compete at lower levels and follow the sport that i love.

 

[monkeybum13]

Haven't been on the forum for a few days as I've been enjoying another fantastic Badminton with a very deserving winner and haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this post isn't really relevant.

A thread accusing Mark Todd of "horse abuse"? Really? You have to be joking...
A man that imo is the best horseman on the planet.

 

[skewbald_again]

Do you know what is really harming our sport?

It's not giving our horses a smack or a tug or asking that extra little bit out of them, but it's all you so called ''do gooders''.

Do you see other sports where the amateurs slate the top class pros. Yes you might get the odd 'oh he messed up there' or 'i wouldn't have done it that way' that's human nature and it's doesn't go any further.

But our sport is now reaching the media, weather it's in racing, eventing etc. It is being questioned if it should stay in the olympics. All these ''do gooders'' are ripping the sport apart and giving them amunition to get rid of it. We should be proud of our sport and support it in every way.

I would give my right arm to be like the pros but i don't have that gift or money so i compete at lower levels and follow the sport that i love.

Couldn't agree more, Kal, well put.

Except for the part about giving your right arm to ride like Toddy. I don't think that would work, but I take your point

 

[Kal]

Couldn't agree more, Kal, well put.

Except for the part about giving your right arm to ride like Toddy. I don't think that would work, but I take your point

Lol. Maybe my left then as i'm right handed

 

[amandap]

Lol, I don't see myself as a 'do gooder' and if you read my posts I have tried to talk generally about why I don't like the use of whips not about anyone in particular. Many don't agree, fair enough I don't expect anyone to take any notice of me.
However imo, another general point, no one is above criticism... Pat Parelli, Mark Todd or even the Queen of England. Only 'GODS' are above criticism and there is much made of some being 'mindless sheep' very frequently on forums when peeps don't agree. No offense meant to sheep btw.

Oh but of course this is 'different'.

 

[muffinino]

I just watched the very jump I think you're talking about. I can only assume you are a troll. The horse left its' back legs behind on the jump just before it, there were only three or four strides to the next jump. He used his whip to get the horse moving forward. A horse moving forward over a jump is a lot safer than a horse NOT moving forward.

Seriously - Mark Todd doesn't have to prove anything at all. Horse finished - sure it was tired, but most horses are after finishing the xc. If he'd had to do that on three jumps in a row, then sure, the horse is too tired and should be retired. but it was the only use of the whip I saw and I've got to say, he is one of the best xc riders. You never see him pulling on the horses mouth to keep his balance or anything else that some of the other 4* riders do.

This, entirely.

Having now seen the 'beating' the horse got I cannot believe people are making such a fuss! MT clearly smacked him to make him pay attention and that was the only time in the whole round that I saw him do so. I also note that he was using a padded racing type whip that is designed to not sting as much as other types, so whilst it will make an impact, it is not as harsh as other types. Do people seriously consider that a horse is being abused or beaten when smacked like MT did? Yes, it may sting for a few seconds but it is better that they learn to get on with a job and not injure themselves. I know some people say they would not push home a knackered horse, which I agree with, but the horse obviously didn't feel like that to MT as he would know it. I have absolute confidence that MT is able to judge a horse far better than just about anyone and was telling the horse to get with the programme, rather than punishing him.
After the Quarry the horse then went on to jump the rest of the course looking perfectly fine, so maybe it was his attention that was lagging more than his body. The fact is, he then went on to jump a round the next day and looking happy & enthusiastic about it after having been passed by the vets. Other horses on the course proved that you cannot beat a horse into doing something he does not want to do as some refused to jump (and in fact, were really quite naughty about it) despite having a good few smacks after a refusal or whilst backing off. I wish some people would focus as much energy into helping horses that are truly abused as they do wringing their hands about the correct use of a whip by the man who is probably the best rider in the world.

 

[muffinino]

Would I like to scarf down half a pound of chicken ****, jump in a smelly pond, and try to shag a hairy blanket from Oxfam? No.

What...I...what? You don't?! F*c*socks! Why didn't anybody tell me?!

 

[Kal]

Lol, I don't see myself as a 'do gooder' and if you read my posts I have tried to talk generally about why I don't like the use of whips not about anyone in particular. Many don't agree, fair enough I don't expect anyone to take any notice of me.
However imo, another general point, no one is above criticism... Pat Parelli, Mark Todd or even the Queen of England. Only 'GODS' are above criticism and there is much made of some being 'mindless sheep' very frequently on forums when peeps don't agree. No offense meant to sheep btw.

Oh but of course this is 'different'.

There are some people in any sport that gives it a bad name. But the people who you have just mentioned are your opinion and should be kept so. I have people that i generally don't like but i keep this to myself unless they have done something very daming to the sport.

For example i can't stand Parelli but that's my opinion and he isn't bringing the sport to it's knees. We need to get into the media how well our riders are doing and what we're winning not the use of a whip to wake a horse up which every rider who rides have done.

And if you say you have never use a whip on any horse than either your lieing or you have many broken bones where the horse has walked all over you. In the wild how do you think the head of the herd keeps control, he bites and kicks until he gets them listening to him. We have to do this as these are big animals we are dealing with who don't know there own strength. And we deal with it in a nicer way to bites and kicks with a sharpe tap with the whip which will hurt less than if it was within a herd.

 

[skewbald_again]

what...i...what? You don't?! F*c*socks! Why didn't anybody tell me?!

:d :d :d
at the third attempt to edit that to look like three big grins I have given up.
ROFLOL instead.

 

[amandap]

There are some people in any sport that gives it a bad name. But the people who you have just mentioned are your opinion and should be kept so. I have people that i generally don't like but i keep this to myself unless they have done something very daming to the sport.

Most of it is our opinion though isn't it. Many people can get rosettes, win comps, make loadsa dosh but for me it's HOW this is done that is important when an animal is the means to do it.

I know very little about Parelli or Mark Todd they are both just humans like me and you though and if either do something I don't agree with, it doesn't make it right in my eyes just because it was someone I happen to admire who did it.