Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
I couldn't bring myself to like your post, but I hope the work up is better news.
Introducing Toby
- Thread starter Ambers Echo
- Start date
DressageCob
Well-Known Member
How upsetting. I hope you get to the bottom of the problem. I do wonder if the water treadmill is making him use himself correctly (straighter etc) and he can't mask his injury or problem anymore. I hope you figure it out.
Skib
Well-Known Member
So sorry to read this.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
Michen I missed your thread somehow. But the answers are reassuring. Fingers crossed it's a wonky young horse issue and nothing too sinister. It seems Tom never gets horses to move when assessing them which in retrospect makes me question what he concluded. Ironic really because I wanted a 'holistic' approach, taking the whole horse into account. But he's more narrow/specific in his focus than a normal vet work up would be.
I'll stick with old school!
And yes our spares now need spares
Thanks for kind wishes everyone. I suppose I worry because he's been crooked the whole time I've had him. I've blamed my riding but maybe he's been guarding an injury all this time. Maybe he was so harshly broken/tied down etc because he was hard work for the breaker who resorted to force?
Poor Toby. If you let him move how he wants to he's a very cheerful friendly horse and very willing. There is never any reluctance. So it cant be too bad.....
I'll stick with old school!
And yes our spares now need spares
Thanks for kind wishes everyone. I suppose I worry because he's been crooked the whole time I've had him. I've blamed my riding but maybe he's been guarding an injury all this time. Maybe he was so harshly broken/tied down etc because he was hard work for the breaker who resorted to force?
Poor Toby. If you let him move how he wants to he's a very cheerful friendly horse and very willing. There is never any reluctance. So it cant be too bad.....
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
Yes that makes a lot of sense.
Michen
Well-Known Member
Michen I missed your thread somehow. But the answers are reassuring. Fingers crossed it's a wonky young horse issue and nothing too sinister. It seems Tom never gets horses to move when assessing them which in retrospect makes me question what he concluded. Ironic really because I wanted a 'holistic' approach, taking the whole horse into account. But he's more narrow/specific in his focus than a normal vet work up would be.
I'll stick with old school!
And yes our spares now need spares
Thanks for kind wishes everyone. I suppose I worry because he's been crooked the whole time I've had him. I've blamed my riding but maybe he's been guarding an injury all this time. Maybe he was so harshly broken/tied down etc because he was hard work for the breaker who resorted to force?
Poor Toby. If you let him move how he wants to he's a very cheerful friendly horse and very willing. There is never any reluctance. So it cant be too bad.....
Yes and I think that’s fine Re Tom’s approach but he should not be telling people their horses are sound if he hasn’t watched them move. I think that’s outrageous tbh. Fine if his methods involve feeling what’s under his hands but that should be relaying information not confirming soundness either way.
Really hope that whatever it is, if anything, is minor. Xx
Ali27
Well-Known Member
Mmm! I had Tom Beech out to mine and was not overly impressed! He never watched her move either I much prefer Rob Jackson! Although I now use Lisa Brookes and she has transformed my pony, along with great saddler and instructor! Hopefully you get answers from the vet! Apparently Campbell at Nantwich is amazing!
scats
Well-Known Member
So sorry to hear this AE. I feel your pain, having been in your situation before with spares going lame.
Got everything crossed for you and Toby x
Got everything crossed for you and Toby x
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Agree that it's very poor that Tom said he wasn't lame without even seeing him move, but hopefully his manipulations will have still have made Toby generally more comfortable. It should make it easier to see what the primary issue is rather than if he was still very sore everywhere.
Good luck, hope that it's easy to find and fix.
Good luck, hope that it's easy to find and fix.
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Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
I am beginning to doubt myself but the very last question I asked Tom was 'so he's not lame then' and he said 'no he's not lame'. I've checked the website again. It is not just for post other investigations work ups it is for evaluation of performance issues, intermittent lamness, worse on one rein etc etc - all the issues I was having. And he knew that he was my first port of call and that Toby had not been seen by another vet yet. It was an assessment not a follow up. I feel quite stupid really not to realise that he can't possibly rule out lameness without seeing him move but I just trusted him and his reputation and figured he knew what he was doing. And for irrational, emotional reasons, the hospital route was just not appealing after 3 bad outcomes and zero good outcomes.
My guess now is that Toby was injured before I even bought him. The vetting identified the right side issue but said it was nornal in a weak, wobbly 5 yo and nothing to worry about. Which sounds perfectly reasonable onlt in his case correct work has not helped him and the issue is now worse! As others have said - making him work straighter seems to have made the injured part get used and so it is worse. Gah. Why do we have them? Money pits and heart breakers.
My guess now is that Toby was injured before I even bought him. The vetting identified the right side issue but said it was nornal in a weak, wobbly 5 yo and nothing to worry about. Which sounds perfectly reasonable onlt in his case correct work has not helped him and the issue is now worse! As others have said - making him work straighter seems to have made the injured part get used and so it is worse. Gah. Why do we have them? Money pits and heart breakers.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
Typical conversation: me and my non horsey son. Horse money is like monopoly money. It just isn't real. Only it is!
Son: "So Toby is lame?"
Me "sadly yes"
Son: "And Toby was the horse bought while Amber was recovering who you couldnt afford but that was okay as you would sell on for at least what you paid, and probably more, when Amber came back into work?"
Me: "That was the plan, yes"
"But Amber won;t work again"
"No"
And You can't sell Toby?"
"No."
Ok I see. And you're now looking for another one?
Er, yes.
Son: "So Toby is lame?"
Me "sadly yes"
Son: "And Toby was the horse bought while Amber was recovering who you couldnt afford but that was okay as you would sell on for at least what you paid, and probably more, when Amber came back into work?"
Me: "That was the plan, yes"
"But Amber won;t work again"
"No"
And You can't sell Toby?"
"No."
Ok I see. And you're now looking for another one?
Er, yes.
Bernster
Well-Known Member
?
Ive been checking a few ads but not looking in earnest. Have decided to simplify my life and not think about getting a 2nd. So obv I’m bound to find another soon ???. Sorry about Toby I hope it’s something simple. They give us so many great things but they do also give us heartache and an empty pocket!
Ive been checking a few ads but not looking in earnest. Have decided to simplify my life and not think about getting a 2nd. So obv I’m bound to find another soon ???. Sorry about Toby I hope it’s something simple. They give us so many great things but they do also give us heartache and an empty pocket!
Michen
Well-Known Member
I hope the right side issues weren’t noted on the vetting AE or you may have trouble with your insurance.
Tbh i would be careful what you write on here, I’ve lately had an experience with my insurance for Boggle where they’ve used something I’ve written out of context to try and wriggle out of paying- on here.
Tbh i would be careful what you write on here, I’ve lately had an experience with my insurance for Boggle where they’ve used something I’ve written out of context to try and wriggle out of paying- on here.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
Thanks for warning but he's not insured as my premiums were astronomical after the other 3!
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
They searched HHO and matched you and him to your claim even though you don't use your real names for either of you? I assume you didn't insure him as Boggle?
I found that more than a bit sinister, to take the time to do that, not even knowing if you'd be on HHO in the first place, or do we have an insurance spy in the camp?
Michen
Well-Known Member
Yep they did. My YouTube videos link to my real name.
They literally chose a couple of things I said that were not written with the correct context and used it as a case (or rather, part of). I am in the process of taking them to the ombudsman at the moment.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
AE, just winding back a little. I think Tom said Toby should do 3 months of rehab. Do you know what that was "for"? I'm just wondering if what you are seeing is something like the manipulation that he did wearing off, and time needed for the rehab work to take over? I'm just thinking of other horses that have needed repeat work to maintain the adjustments done while the body strengthens up.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
? I think that must mean we have a spy from your insurance company (maybe all of them) on the forum. There are only a couple of thousand active users who post, if that. They can't be searching HHO for every claim to see if they can spot a video that has the user name of one of their clients, can they?
Sorry for derailing the thread, AE, but I think this is important stuff for people who are insured to know.
.
Michen
Well-Known Member
Meh, probably. I mean you should always assume anything you write on a public forum can be seen by anyone etc. But I have nothing to hide Re Boggles claim (it’s the hocks they are trying to get out of), it was just that I’d written something about timings off the cuff and they’d taken that one bit and tried to use it, despite the fact that all my other posts explain it correctly, as does the clinical history and vet visits end notes.
A bit sad that you have to watch everything you write like that, but that’s the world we live in.
Anyway this has given me a kick up the arse as I need to sort the paperwork out for the ombudsman submission and have yet to bother a few months later ?
Squeak
Well-Known Member
I actually find that really scary and wrong! I'm glad you've taken them to the ombudsman about it, it doesn't feel fair or like it should be allowed. It also feels like it's some sort of breach of privacy/ confidentiality or something?
If you're able to update us on how you get on with the Ombudsman I'd be very interested to hear. It sounds like the same could be applied to social media if you're security settings aren't completely private or if you posted in a FB group or even if you're friends with someone who works for the company.
Michen
Well-Known Member
I’ve no idea tbh. In my response to them over it I just said it was under hand and taken out of context and addressed the other reasons they are trying to not pay. They even suggested my vet wasn’t a reliable source of information as “it’s in their interest to insure the claim is paid financially”. That was a funny one, as I can show that I paid my vets before the claim was ever rejected. I actually put in a complaint to the persons line manager about that as felt it was very unprofessional.
Anyway AE I’m sorry to derail (again!) and I’m glad you don’t have to worry about faffing with unruly insurance companies ?
Squeak
Well-Known Member
AE I really hope it's just something to do with being a wobbly baby still and nothing actually sinister. What a rollercoaster you've had with him recently
Have you got a date yet for him to go in for the work up?
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I don't think it's scary, i think it's to be expected that insurers will look to make sure they are only paying genuine claims, it sounds like Michen has been totally transparent and correct and they've got the wrong end of the stick over a detail so it will hopefully all go away.
it's a pain, but i don't see this as anything sinister.
If anything it's a reminder to everyone to be straight with their insurers, I think! now and then people on here (usually newbies) suggest ways to try and swing a claim when it's not within the Ts and Cs so i think it's normal that insurance companies would up their game to make sure they weren't being taken for a ride.
it's a pain, but i don't see this as anything sinister.
If anything it's a reminder to everyone to be straight with their insurers, I think! now and then people on here (usually newbies) suggest ways to try and swing a claim when it's not within the Ts and Cs so i think it's normal that insurance companies would up their game to make sure they weren't being taken for a ride.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
And I thought my insurance company tried hard to get out of paying out. Damn!
I am always nervous posting on here. I share photos, just of my horse doing mundane things such as eating grass, but still.
I'm actually curious as to what the actual issue is with Toby. "Right side" is sort of vague to me. Would be interesting to see his conformation, symmetry, and way of going (if it were my own horse, not saying you have to post this).
I've had a number of young horses over the years (never bought one older than 5) and they've had a ride or two where they've felt wonky or stiff and I've eased off a bit due to them growing, but not for very long (a week or two, maybe) and then we were back at it feeling pretty decent again. Usual training struggles/humps aside, I've not experienced this ongoing "young horse wonky" thing that people reference on here. At least to the level of persistence and/or length of time that people speak of, so it's interesting to me.
I do use a vet, osteopath, and chiropractor on my horse (and horses over the years) and sometimes do notice a little bit of change, but I've also not had one be incredibly "out" everywhere. I do know that you need to do several treatments in a row to get the full effect, or so they say.
But how do you convince a horse to use its body differently during the other 23 hours of the day we're not working them? Should still change over time with proper work and muscling, but still something I ponder.
Does Toby get worse when out of work? Or with more work?
I am always nervous posting on here. I share photos, just of my horse doing mundane things such as eating grass, but still.
I'm actually curious as to what the actual issue is with Toby. "Right side" is sort of vague to me. Would be interesting to see his conformation, symmetry, and way of going (if it were my own horse, not saying you have to post this).
I've had a number of young horses over the years (never bought one older than 5) and they've had a ride or two where they've felt wonky or stiff and I've eased off a bit due to them growing, but not for very long (a week or two, maybe) and then we were back at it feeling pretty decent again. Usual training struggles/humps aside, I've not experienced this ongoing "young horse wonky" thing that people reference on here. At least to the level of persistence and/or length of time that people speak of, so it's interesting to me.
I do use a vet, osteopath, and chiropractor on my horse (and horses over the years) and sometimes do notice a little bit of change, but I've also not had one be incredibly "out" everywhere. I do know that you need to do several treatments in a row to get the full effect, or so they say.
But how do you convince a horse to use its body differently during the other 23 hours of the day we're not working them? Should still change over time with proper work and muscling, but still something I ponder.
Does Toby get worse when out of work? Or with more work?
Michen
Well-Known Member
I think what they did was underhand because they ignored the many, many posts that explain the time lines correctly and tried to pick up on something I’d written to try and pad out their (already rather shameful) argument. I don’t think it was them getting the wrong end of the stick at as the evidence is there for them to see. I think it was them trying to strengthen their argument and make me go away. And to be fair I nearly have, mainly as the effort to try and recoup a couple of k doesn’t always feel worth it, but I’m going to pursue it because I feel they are genuinely wrong to reject my claim.
But I agree, you have to be prepared that anything you write is visible by anyone, so my mistake was not making sure that I didn’t write things off the cuff. In my case it was something like me saying “months and months of box rest” instead of “3 months box rest”. Or something that ridiculous, can’t remember exactly.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
it's really interesting on an objective level (deeply frustrating when it's your horse). I was thinking about how this might relate to someone like Andy Thomas who is a complete magician at identifying and correcting rider wonkyness, his take on it is that you just can't expect to be straight 24 hours of the day when we live busy lives and do asymmetrical activities like driving etc for hours at a time. the key is to be straightenable when you need to, to activate the switched off things when it counts, to aim to be straight when you ride.
I have a horse that has *always* stepped wide behind with one hindleg, she's been seen, poked, prodded, flexioned, you name it for unrelated reasons by the vets and we've all accepted she's just like that, she came to me as an older horse and there's probably some reason but does not appear to be uncomfortable or deteriorating in any way. in her work, she is straightenable. it's easy to pop that hindleg under rather than out. is that enough? I think it probably is. I don't think that horse is ever going to get straightened out so that she doesn't walk that way at leisure, and tbh she's at an age where it would probably cause a problem elsewhere to try and do so. Functional straightness rather than objective straightness is the aim, perhaps.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
You really brought up some worthwhile points here. I do think it's enough when straightness is accomplished under saddle. That might even be the most important part, but the fitness we build under saddle can also carry over to their leisure time, I think.
For example I had a horse with loose stifles/they'd slip (that stepped in a hole feeling) when not in work. When in work and kept strong, especially in his quadriceps, there was no slipping. So this led to no slipping while riding and while tooling around his field. Which could then lead to the rest of his body just feeling better overall, and some improvement in posture. The "fix" was accomplished through training undersaddle, but carried over to the rest of his time, if that makes sense.
Functional straightness rather than objective straightness is also a really good point.
Also, I'm really insanely jealous of those of you who have the opportunity to ride with Andy Thomas.
southerncomfort
Well-Known Member
This.
Don't know if anyone has watched Claimed and Shamed on BBC1 about shonky insurance claims, but it's now quite routine to check social media accounts etc while assessing a claim.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
He was frustratringly vague about that, really. I like to understand what is going on but the rehab advice was no more than: 'eyes level with hips, backing up, pole work, backing over poles and hacking on a long rein. See you in 3 months.' The 12 weeks seemed like it was that length of time because he was coming back in 12 weeks. So it was 'do that for 12 weeks and I'll see you again'. If he had been coming back in 4 weeks or 6 or 20 it might have been the same advice! As for what is was 'for' - I just understood it to be core and hind end strengthening work. But he looks injured to me. Not just weak. And I now want to know for sure one way or another. I have bought some groundwork DVDs and books and was going through them and I am happy to carry on but I need him investigated now. For my own peace of mind if nothing else. I am not convinced that Tom feeling a horse with his hands is enough to rule out an actual, treatable injury.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I understand the need for a diagnosis, totally. I was just wondering what he told you you were rehabbing, or whether it was a generally useful type of catch-all prescription for a "horse with issues" if you see what I mean. Walk work like that is definitely valuable for niggly not-quite-right kinds of things and I guess it also can't do any harm, allows anything aggravated to settle and could sort of reset the system.
Sounds a lot like what Roxy was give to do which seems to have had a good result. I have no idea if it was right or not in this case obviously but from this layman's POV it's probably safe advice for a lot of problems.
Sounds a lot like what Roxy was give to do which seems to have had a good result. I have no idea if it was right or not in this case obviously but from this layman's POV it's probably safe advice for a lot of problems.