Introducing Toby

milliepops said:
I understand the need for a diagnosis, totally. I was just wondering what he told you you were rehabbing, or whether it was a generally useful type of catch-all prescription for a "horse with issues" if you see what I mean. Walk work like that is definitely valuable for niggly not-quite-right kinds of things and I guess it also can't do any harm, allows anything aggravated to settle and could sort of reset the system.

Sounds a lot like what Roxy was give to do which seems to have had a good result. I have no idea if it was right or not in this case obviously but from this layman's POV it's probably safe advice for a lot of problems.
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It’s the exact treatment plan for mine, too.
 
Tom did say to me that seeing sacroiliac type issues seems to be really common for him. So stands to reason that the work he gives is similar I suppose.
He was very clear about what improvements he expected to see in terms of musculature etc to me. It was not simply work this way for now and see you in 3 months.
To be fair, I possibly could have ridden through the issues we've had and got the same result with schooling but I think we'd have either been struggling with him curling up more and/or the possibility of injury as a result of being made to work correctly without unpicking issues first.
Incidentally I've noticed recently he rests both hind legs now more equally rather than mostly the left.
Sorry for hijacking but seemed a bit relevant to the current discussions.

So sorry its not better news for him, he's so lovely
 
CanteringCarrot said:
Seems sort of "generic" ...not saying it doesn't/won't work and is harmful or anything.
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it does, but then there are no magic bullets really, are there? all soft tissue rehabs are mainly the same regardless of whether it's a ligament or a tendon or where the injury is, it's all gentle steadily increasing controlled exercise... My vets don't bother giving me a plan any more as I've done so many of them, we just say "soft tissue rehab" and off you go :rolleyes:

I sort of see this as similar, if it's a NQR thing, he's not going to come up with something weird and wonderful because otherwise we'd all know about it wouldn't we?
 
milliepops said:
it does, but then there are no magic bullets really, are there? all soft tissue rehabs are mainly the same regardless of whether it's a ligament or a tendon or where the injury is, it's all gentle steadily increasing controlled exercise... My vets don't bother giving me a plan any more as I've done so many of them, we just say "soft tissue rehab" and off you go :rolleyes:

I sort of see this as similar, if it's a NQR thing, he's not going to come up with something weird and wonderful because otherwise we'd all know about it wouldn't we?
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Oh I agree. While it seems generic, it is often the path to take anyway. So what else could you expect? If my own horse were NQR it's definitely what I'd be doing too. I do some of this stuff anyway with poles because I think its a good thing regardless.

A lot of people don't know what soft tissue rehab consists of or aren't so patient with it, so I think it's good when a vet can give out a prescribed plan of sorts.
 
Just as an FYI Tom didn't give me the same plan - he referred me back to my vet for an ultrasound for her SI area and scan / xray stifles. This horse had trotted up for vets many, many times so I was surprised but not hugely bothered when he took a different approach with seeing how she reacted to his manipulations. I have seen him have horses trot up at clinics so I guess it depends on what he sees in front of him.

AE - your non horsey son sounds like my OH.
Him - "so we have 3 broken horses in the field and you want another one because you aren't getting any younger and want some fun?"
Me - yes
Him - what's to stop another one breaking?
Me - oh you can pretty much guarantee that. It just depends on level of brokenness.

I hope Toby's issue is nothing serious and you get to the bottom of it. I have decided that owning horses and riding horses are two totally separate hobbies. In fact my current hobby is probably amateur vet - they don't need to give me rehab plans for soft tissue injuries either :rolleyes:
 
CanteringCarrot said:
Does Toby get worse when out of work? Or with more work?
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Timeline for anyone interested:

May: Ridden at viewing - dealer rode him very very forward, almost pushing him out of balance. I got on and he felt ok to me but I had not ridden since the leg break and was super nervous so the fact that I felt safe on him was what attracted me to him.
Vetted and passed fit for eventing with verbal comment that he was a bit weaker on the right hind but nornal for age and stage.
June Weeks 1-2ish - Difficult to ride, sucking back throwing his head up. Settled quite soon though. Needed riding forward but the the handbrake came off and he was floaty and lovely.
Late June/July/ early August: improving with work. Did some lovely dressage tests, went to camps, loved by trainers and everyone else.
Late August: I went on holiday for 3 weeks. He was lunged and ridden by my former dressage instructor. Friends tell me they were 'arguing' and it looked a bit messy but he produced beautiful work in the end. Maybe she had a point to prove and was overly harsh with him.
I returned expecting floaty lovely Toby post his schooling holiday and he was back to how he had been in June. Awful.
Sept/Oct improving. Doing some lovely work. But then jumped sideways into a jump and I came off. Checked saddle and it was pinching him as he had changed shape.
Nov/Dec New saddle. Awful weather. Still doing nice work but not making further progress which I attributed to weather related lack of consistency
January - Personal worst ever score in a dressage test!
Feb/March improving, better test scores, feeling good but still wonky. Took him to treadmill as the final piece of the puzzle.
End March: Worse than ever before on return from treadmill.
April: Tom Beech. "Not lame, tight in poll, neck, all stemming from tightness much further back. Buckled palate from harsh breaking or riding at some point a long time ago."

And here we are.

Alongside that I would add the mental aspect - he is the kindest most willing horse ever. He tries so hard. But when you try and ride him straight and insist on it he seems to get panicky. Never in an unsafe way but just in a head tossing bit chomping, sucking back kind of way. If he could talk it feels like he's saying 'I can't do it, I just can't' and then getting upset. Though when he is MADE to go straight by better riders than me, he looks fab. And when he is on form, plenty of people incl dressage judges have commented on how nicely he moves!

Someone want to make sense of all of that? There seems to be a bit of a pattern of worse functioning after harder and more 'correct' work.

- His 10 days at the dealer pulled into a frame and pushed forward
- His schooling holiday
- His treadmill week.

I worked him hard at camp and he did not regress but he has always been a bit quarters in with me so it seems that when he is made to go straight something gets aggravated. Not just when the work load increases. That does not sound like he just needs generic gentle strength work to me. Especially as we are talking almost a year now.

But then he has done lovely work in between. So maybe the rehab plan is the right one. Or maybe the hard work uncovers an injury every time and sets him back and that in the end we won't get past a certain level of work without identifying and treating that injury.

My glimmer of hope is Tom feeling that he was not lame. And certainly not suggesting any investigations. But deep down I think I know he has an injury. The questions are where, what and how to fix it. And I really want answers and a plan now.
 
CanteringCarrot said:
Also, I'm really insanely jealous of those of you who have the opportunity to ride with Andy Thomas.
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I'm going tomorrow. I booked in when I felt that all Toby's issues were down to my own wonkiness. I was looking forward to a magically transformed Toby when I straightened up!!
But luckily Dolly can step in so I don't have to cancel as I am sure it will be very helpful anyway.
 
Hmmm. A vetting that identified a “weak” limb. What do they mean by that. My vet said you could describe Bears lameness as weakness, unlevel or whatever but a horse is either sound or lame. No such think as unlevel but not lame. Flight of leg as MP mentions is a bit different I think.

I think you are doing the right thing getting him looked at. How are his feet, might they be telling a story particularly if barefoot?
 
Ambers Echo said:
But deep down I think I know he has an injury. The questions are where, what and how to fix it. And I really want answers and a plan now.
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Yes, this. You need to find that niggle, whatever it is, and take it from there.

Your current plan to take Toby to a very good horsepital based equine vet for a workup is spot on. It may be that you still end up doing a post soft tissue injury rehab anyway, but you need to find out what's wrong, because something, somewhere, is amiss.
 
milliepops said:
it does, but then there are no magic bullets really, are there? all soft tissue rehabs are mainly the same regardless of whether it's a ligament or a tendon or where the injury is, it's all gentle steadily increasing controlled exercise... My vets don't bother giving me a plan any more as I've done so many of them, we just say "soft tissue rehab" and off you go :rolleyes:

I sort of see this as similar, if it's a NQR thing, he's not going to come up with something weird and wonderful because otherwise we'd all know about it wouldn't we?
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So if I could let go of the psychological need for a diagnosis would you just do the 12 weeks and go back for a follow up with Tom after that? If it really does not matter where the issue is or precisely what?

Where do things like anti-inflammatiry injections to settle things down fit in? When I was a runner I spent months in private physio for hip bursitis then eventually went to my GP who injected it with cortico-steroids. Never had a moment's pain from it ever again.
 
Michen said:
Hmmm. A vetting that identified a “weak” limb. What do they mean by that. My vet said you could describe Bears lameness as weakness, unlevel or whatever but a horse is either sound or lame. No such think as unlevel but not lame. Flight of leg as MP mentions is a bit different I think.

I think you are doing the right thing getting him looked at. How are his feet, might they be telling a story particularly if barefoot?
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He was shod, I took shoes off. His farrier is happy with them and Tom looked at them and had no concerns. Farrier and Tom are friends actually. So farrier was waiting for instructions when he heard I was going, but Tom said no changes needed.
 
Ambers Echo said:
He was shod, I took shoes off. His farrier is happy with them and Tom looked at them and had no concerns. Farrier and Tom are friends actually. So farrier was waiting for instructions when he heard I was going, but Tom said no changes needed.
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I more meant if there’s anything in the wear of his feet that could give you some clues. Even perhaps the fronts. Is he landing level etc.
 
I don't think it's ever wrong to get a horse looked at if you think there's something wrong.
But often times the treatment for whatever it is, is the same, that;s what I meant. I guess in your shoes (though this is just my interpretation of your shoes from what you've shared ;) ) I would be back in touch with Tom to say, look i've started the rehab plan, i tried him in trot and he felt lame, does that sound normal at this stage or should I be looking elsewhere now?

I'm only saying that as you were already committed to a longish term plan so I think *personally* that's what I'd be doing at this stage.

I'm a bit with Michen on the weakness thing identified early on, what did that mean exactly? I don't think crookedness is the same as weakness, I think crookedness is more about a dominant side being over active rather than the weak side being weak, necessarily if that makes sense? Weakness suggests less than normal function or some kind of deficiency. and I'd have expected to need a treatment plan (maybe another 3 month rehab under guidance!) to address that, but as he went to camp and lessons ok etc then I guess it wasn't deemed necessary at that point?

the most rubbish thing about horses is, there's often not one answer. there are multiple ways round a problem (again Michen's vet has been an example of that where there wasn't an outstandingly *correct* approach with Bear at this point - work, turn away ... who knows...?) and also that not everything can be resolved. I think all we can do is go with caution and be receptive to feedback from the horse :confused:
 
I’m not sure I’d be wanting to not try and diagnose a problem that has been going on for a year or more, and leaving it for another 3 months. He had this at the vetting. Most soft tissue injuries in that time would surely sort of heal themselves in some way, particularly when he’s had periods of quiet work.

It might be something that needs settling through medication (as I saw with a quick improvement through medicating a fetlock). It might be a bone chip that needs removing. Who knows.

This isn’t a new thing and it seems to be getting worse not better despite not much in reality being asked of the horse.

If a “new” poster came on here and described the scenario and said the physio or whatnot had treated the horse but not assessed lameness, the over whelming advise would be “you need a vet”. He hasn’t been assessed properly, with flexions and movement tests, by a vet.
 
That's where I'm at Michen.

My only reservation is thast Tom IS a vet and maybe he could advise. But I feel a bit meh about him now! But maybe that is unfair. I have nothing to lose by messaging him anyway I guess.
 
Ambers Echo said:
That's where I'm at Michen.

My only reservation is thast Tom IS a vet and maybe he could advise. But I feel a bit meh about him now! But maybe that is unfair. I have nothing to lose by messaging him anyway I guess.
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Yes I know but he didn’t assess him for lameness. And he’s human and they can make mistakes. If you go to him again and he does a full lameness work up then great, but can you imagine a poster coming on here and saying they don’t think the horse needs to see a vet because a physio/Chiro/Osteo has and says the horse isn’t lame (without seeing it trot up etc)

I know he’s a vet but IMO that’s the same scenario, because he didn’t do a lameness work up. I completely understand reasons why he may not look at a horse move as mentioned in my thread but then he absolutely cannot make statements such as “the horse is not lame”. And your horse feels lame.
 
I also wouldn't want an ongoing thing to be left unresolved, but as you already have a relationship with Tom it does seem like the obvious place to start, otherwise what was the point of going there? I guess we do all seek advice from an expert and discount it, I have walked out of lessons before because i thought it wasn't right for the horse. i mean it's a bit moot now as you are booked into horspital anyway :) i was just saying that's what I would have done as a first point of call, from the point you're at right now. He's had a lot of flack on this forum for the last couple of days after one-off trips... but people say he's approachable and good with questions, seems like a lost opportunity if nothing else, to not ask the Q ;)
 
southerncomfort said:
This.

Don't know if anyone has watched Claimed and Shamed on BBC1 about shonky insurance claims, but it's now quite routine to check social media accounts etc while assessing a claim.
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There's a difference, I think, between checking social media accounts for a person' or even a horse's name, and coming onto a forum frequented by a small number of people they insure, not knowing which users they do insure unless they use their real name as their logon, then trawling the forum for things that match their client's horse, finding a video and retreiving the client name from the video file.

I despise insurance cheats, but that's going too far, imo, and the way it has been used against Michen proves it for me.
.
 
Ok I have emailed him! Let;s see what happens next. Nothing wrong with pursuing all options and saving a grand or 2 on vet bills would be handy for sure.

My intention was not to give anyone 'flack'. I'm just telling people what happened. I am not pissed off with the vetting vet either. I have heard plenty of people say that horses can pass vettings without being perfectly sound because the parameters are very strict and clear.

Conversely my friend has just done the horsepital route because even though the vet said she was absolutely vet-passing level of sound, there was something very subtly off about how she transitioned into canter. Xrays revealed crushed disc. That was the same vet, but he was looking at it from a 'is there something amiss' way, not from a 'will I pass you' way.
 
Ambers Echo said:
My intention was not to give anyone 'flack'. I'm just telling people what happened.
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no, i didn't mean to suggest you did, it was a carry over from the other thread. I just felt that if I was in TBs shoes, I'd want a client to contact me if there was a problem afterwards rather than discuss it with randoms and just leave dissatisfied.
There's nothing to suggest he wouldn't also want to know :) it's entirely likely that he will come back and say yeah, sounds like a work up is the next step.
 
Re flack - I actually don't think that's come from the people who've seen Tom (and definitely not from you) more people who've read reports back but either way, I personally found him super approachable and happy to answer stuff so it would be my first call in your shoes
 
Hm. Based off of the timeline *something* is definitely being agitated.

I think you could approach Tom and tell him how it's been going and see what he says. He may also give you some points to start at when he goes to horspital.

It really could be a variety of things or be a peeling the onion type of deal. Just have to find the source of it all. Easier said than done and also depends on how much money you're willing to spend.

Horses can be incredibly frustrating and I have no idea why some people feel that this is a relaxing hobby :p I really hope they do find something. As you mentioned upthread it could be something that needs treatment, such as an injection, and without it, you might not really get over this hump. I also want to say that I really respect you doing doing much for this horse and being so dedicated.
 
For what it’s worth - and a thing to think about perhaps when buying... a properly started horse (sound, basically) will not be at all weak in terms of a vetting at 5yo. 3yo horses are weak. 5yo horses are in that stage when they are gaining strength and feeling good - and often a little naughty because of it!
 
Glad you've emailed Tom, I think it's a good idea to keep these professionals in the loop, after all it's another set of eyes and another opinion. Also if you want to use him in future, he knows the whole picture.

At this point, I'd want the workup though so hopefully Tom will just support that decision.
 
havent anything constructive to add but really feel for you..toby is lucky that you bought him and noticed something wasnt right. many people would have used force on him to get a result and not realise that he has a problem....i have always liked him and if i was able to afford to keep a horse again i would love to have him as a happy hacker and im sure if you wanted to sell someone would love to have him as well.... there are many competent people who dont really want to compete or jump much who would be suitable. hopefully it doesnt come to that and you can find the problem and get it treated, fingers crossed for the lovely boy..
 
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