Introducing Toby

HufflyPuffly

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Two of you have questioned why this is being considered extreme. I never said extreme, it's not extreme.

I also still don't understand why people are being told to ride their horses in that frame, all the time, for three months.

I get the short periods, IF the hind end is kept under it raises the loins. It prevents the horse from being ridden hollow. I use it myself, but as a stretch not a full time way of working.

I still don't completely understand the rehab instructions, and worse I suspect many people interpret them as "slop along on a loose rein for 3 months". The first picture, of a horse loose in the field, looks to me as if it's dragging itself around by its forehand.
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I think this is where you need to have a very clear plan from whoever you’re using.

This ‘rehab’ was similar to what my Chiro vet prescribed (I would recommend her to anyone, and she 100% watches them move before and afterwards ?) but the idea was to do very short intense sessions, so 10 mins in walk over poles in that frame (the more stretchy canter one, stretched and engaged).

Work the core but do not fatigue it, preferably 3+ times a day. If a horse hasn’t been using the right muscles you need to ‘force’ them to until they are strong enough to hold themselves correctly.

If you remember Skyllas pictures the change in her stance was clear, once we got her using the right muscles, even at rest she had better posture.

It’s basic stuff, but sometimes certain horses need a bit of an intensive crash course in building certain muscle groups up.
 

Michen

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AFAIK no one had been told to ride their horse in that position for 3mths. Even if thay had it's a much safer and more beneficial frame than the frames that many are ridden/lunged in.

Also the horses "prescribed" this work are, on the whole based on HHO posts, already comprised in one way or another because the owners have identified issues. It is too different from rehab exercises given to humans. No one is expected to move in certain ways forever but while building & rehabbing issues patients often have to be very aware of how they hold themselves and move as they reprogramme themselves.

Anyone unsure of the instructions given to them by a qualified professional who has treated the horse should contact them for clarification in the first instance. That is more valuable than opinions from faceless entities on the internet. For example my assumption would be that the initial few weeks would be on the ground and walk only yet that doesnt appear to be what is being done as ridden trot is happening. So that's one example of how my perception would be incorrect in this instance and why the giver of then instructions should be contacted.

Really quite taken aback by some of the things that have been said and implied about Tom Beech on this thread and the other. No one is made to go to him or hand over money; it's free choice. AFAIA his clinics are for vet osteo/chiro not work ups and not second opinion work. All of those I'm sure he does if pre arranged but generally speaking he's not about to start a full lameness investigation.

Again, it's been a while since I've read his website but I'm sure he does work ups, vetting and referral work if that if what is booked but anyone rocking up is for the osteo/chiro treatments.

I completely agree and remained neutral on my thread. But I do think it’s unprofessional to declare a horse sound to an owner without trotting it up, flexing it etc as a normal vet should. If this was anyone other than a well known Osteo saying this a HHO would be rather outraged.

The answer should have been I can do a soundness check if you like, or not that I can detect without seeing him move etc. Like I said, he’s only human, and it may be that he missed a few words out in that statement such as “from what I’m seeing so far”.
 

milliepops

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I still don't completely understand the rehab instructions, and worse I suspect many people interpret them as "slop along on a loose rein for 3 months". The first picture, of a horse loose in the field, looks to me as if it's dragging itself around by its forehand.
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Lol
Well it is ?
I picked it as you said horses didn't move like that at liberty and there he was, trundling up the hill with his head and neck down.
 

ycbm

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Lol
Well it is ?
I picked it as you said horses didn't move like that at liberty and there he was, trundling up the hill with his head and neck down.

So it isn't the work that's being recommended is it, tootling around pulling itself along on its forehand? So it's not moving as recommended while at liberty.
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milliepops

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I really find it an odd thing to be bothered about, the horse at liberty doesn't have a rider on its back. So it doesn't matter if it heaves it's body along on the forehand, it's only supporting it's own organs and shifting them from a to b.

Surely it matters really when preparing that body to receive a rider, that we then use appropriate postures to make the back the least weak-hammock shaped, and strengthen the underside to be able to maintain that? Otherwise we set the horse up to fail physically. What it does in nature isn't relevant, other than to show it can comfortably perform the postures and may do at leisure.

Here's a free horse with his head and neck low but not imo lumbering on the forehand, since we seem stuck on this detour ? still not the same as in training, but I think if they do this ⬇️ we can say it does no additional harm to position the body similarly in workScreenshot_20210427-111031_Messenger.jpg
 

Tiddlypom

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The basic walk and trot up, plus lunging in wtc as appropriate (maybe cut that down if horse is very sore), is a fundamental part of the vet assessment (whether chiro, osteo or another flavour of vet).

It is not an additional bonus that the owner should need to request. It is not a work up, it is part of the preliminary assessment. I've variously had regular vets, chiro vet, team GB ACPAT physio, McTimoney chiro, equine non vet osteo and a masseur out to my horses, and the only one who cracks on without seeing the horse trot up is the masseur, because that is outside her remit. She takes in a full verbal update on where the horse is up to re vets, any lamenesses etc though, before commencing.

No vet should declare a horse not lame without seeing it move. It would be perfectly ok to say, though 'Horse is very sore today but I'll treat what I find today, and let's see how the horse progresses/I'd like to come back and assess again in x period of time.'

There seems to be a lot of slack being cut here for *reasons unknown* for not assessing the horse(s) moving.

The only additional 'work up' part that I'd expect a chiro/osteo vet to perform over and above a non vet body worker would be, maybe, flexions.
 

ycbm

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I really find it an odd thing to be bothered about, the horse at liberty doesn't have a rider on its back. So it doesn't matter if it heaves it's body along on the forehand, it's only supporting it's own organs and shifting them from a to b.

Surely it matters really when preparing that body to receive a rider, that we then use appropriate postures to make the back the least weak-hammock shaped, and strengthen the underside to be able to maintain that? Otherwise we set the horse up to fail physically. What it does in nature isn't relevant, other than to show it can comfortably perform the postures and may do at leisure.

Here's a free horse with his head and neck low but not imo lumbering on the forehand, since we seem stuck on this detour ? still not the same as in training, but I think if they do this ⬇️ we can say it does no additional harm to position the body similarly in workView attachment 70786

Bothered about? All I was asking for was a simple explanation of why it's routinely prescribed. It's not as if I've said something terribly controversial, though it's beginning to feel that way ?.
 

milliepops

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alright, well you have said multiple times that it's not natural and the horse wouldn't choose it, yet we all (i think!!) know it's not natural for a horse to be ridden and I think I've only come across one person on HHO who has said their horses would choose to be ridden, i guess most of the rest of us are in the camp that it's something we like doing and we try to mitigate any negative effects as much as possible :p

so, for me, this way of asking the horse to move is supporting the body for work, and so I don't see why there's an issue about it not being natural. I guess if you want to know why Tom Beech himself suggests it, you'll need to ask him, or one of his clients who didn't understand will need to, and report back :)
I've seen physios suggest work like this before for weak or compromised horses, it also seems a lot like standard KS rehab? pretty standard stuff.
 

Caol Ila

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I think Gypsum would choose to be ridden. I have been back on her for 20-30 minute walks two or three times per week, and her appetite improves when I do this. When I go close to a week (or more) without riding, she goes off her hard feed. And it's not like she isn't getting attention. Either I or OH take her on hand walks and let her hand graze. I don't know if they're related. It's just a correlation I've observed, but you know what they say about cause and correlation.

That's a digression, anyway. Carry on.
 

ycbm

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Can anyone point me to a simple physiological explanation for why eyes on hip level is routine rehab for back and hind end issues? I've googled and I can't find it at the moment.

I like to understand these things that are routinely suggested. Use of a Pessoa is routinely suggested for rehab of kissing spines and you couldn't pay me to put that device on a horse of mine.
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Michen

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I think Gypsum would choose to be ridden. I have been back on her for 20-30 minute walks two or three times per week, and her appetite improves when I do this. When I go close to a week (or more) without riding, she goes off her hard feed. And it's not like she isn't getting attention. Either I or OH take her on hand walks and let her hand graze. I don't know if they're related. It's just a correlation I've observed, but you know what they say about cause and correlation.

That's a digression, anyway. Carry on.


The cynic in me says more exercise/energy expenditure equals hungrier horse/human/animal!
 

Caol Ila

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I would guess that it's meant to engage and strengthen the abs in lifting the back and bringing the hocks underneath the body? Strengthening those muscles helps horse carry a rider without injuring itself. Is it trying to convey the "bridge" metaphor I've run into countless times in dressage-land? You ask the horse to round and lift the back because a concave structure, like bridge arches, is much stronger than a convex one.

Whether that actually happens depends on how you work the horse. If it's just lugging around on the forehand with its head lowered, it won't do those things. Obviously you know all of this. But maybe "eyes level with hips" is just a really muddled phrase some pros are using to communicate that concept to horse owners.
 
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CanteringCarrot

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Also, it's best to think of the horses shape has a bridge (curved upward) vs a hammock. You don't want hammock.

The Pessoa puts the horse into a certain shape/the shape needed in order to strengthen the back and abdominals in such a way that it is of benefit to the horse with kissing spine. It also does other things that aren't so great and it's a contraption. Not for me, but some people claim it has helped. Could possibly be better than the horse going around like a feral giraffe.

If the back is rounded, the vertebrae are not so compressed. If a horse is ridden with a tight hollow back for a long time, it could make vertebrae that were already close touch one another.

I had a warmblood who was on the verge of kissing spine. Posture was insanely important with him and I think prevented the condition from worsening. He had other issues creep up, but it wasn't the kissing spine that ended his career.

Edit: I'm coming back later when I'm not on a mobile phone. So many typos. ?
 

milliepops

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That's the German video I mentioned earlier with the x-rays and whatnot if anyone is interested.

Not my opinion on the matter. Just something a friend on FB posted the other day.
for us non german speakers... equitopia did something similar.

https://www.equitopiacenter.com/videos/developing-your-horses-back-the-biomechanics-of-engagement/

x rays of a horse stood neutrally and then with the core engaged.

Sue Dyson also on the vid explaining the head positioning being neutral or lower for development of topline strength.
 

CanteringCarrot

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for us non german speakers... equitopia did something similar.

https://www.equitopiacenter.com/videos/developing-your-horses-back-the-biomechanics-of-engagement/

x rays of a horse stood neutrally and then with the core engaged.

Sue Dyson also on the vid explaining the head positioning being neutral or lower for development of topline strength.

I actually prefer this video and the info as well as visuals used. Apparently, according to YouTube I've watched this before. Idk how I forgot about it.

Thanks for posting this.
 

ycbm

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Ambers Echo

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Hows it going AE, did you get any answers for Toby?

Thanks for asking. It's been a roller coaster! I got my own vet out first because I trust him and he vetted Tobes a year ago. He actually agrees with Tom. Not lame, just not quite right. I know your vet disagrees with that option but my vet explained it as muscular not injury. And he is not in pain he just finds it hard. Which is what Tom said basically. He went through all stages of a 2 stage and most of a 5 stage plus a few other checks. And he saw me ride. What I think has happened is that when Toby was quarters in he flowed quite smoothly and felt nice to ride. Now he is straighter he is findind it harder and it feels like it's hard work for him. Which it is! So he feels awkward and slightly hesitant as he strikes off which I could feel and made me think he was lame. But if you do a few transitions in a row he gets the hang of how to move and the feeling improves. So I guess that is just a sign that he is beginning to use the muscles he finds more challenging. So all good. He would pass a vet now but I want him to carry on with the rehab plan. So he's for sale to the right home but not yet advertised. I want him to go to a hacking home via word of mouth/ friends of friends. I need to guard against a dealer buying him and selling him for a profit as a potential eventer because he will be priced as a happy hacker with full disclosure including permission to speak to my vet not a potential eventer with no disclosure - just a vetting which he would pass and a viewing in which a good rider could mask his problems easily. Which is prettyy much what happened to me!
 

Roxylola

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Well, that makes sense, sounds cautiously optimistic and sounds like a sensible decision all round. Hopefully you can the perfect home for him, I'm sure you will
 

Caol Ila

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Would he be happy and comfortable being owned by a fairly inexperienced teenager (but lovely and very responsible) and family? I think the lass wants to play about over small fences, learn the dressage basics, hack in the park, and mostly just have a nice time.
 

Roxylola

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I've only met him once, but he's a nice person and would imo make a lovely club horse and friend for someone to go out and have fun with their best pal. That person isn't you so inevitably one of you is going to be unhappy. You're too nice to force him to be unhappy and too driven to compete to be happy pottering. He came to you when he needed you and that's enough.
I know it's not easy, but the right thing will come along at the right time
 

Michen

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That all sounds sensible, how about loaning with a view to buy? Then you can semi secure his future whilst he is getting stronger and becoming 100%.

I get there are good and bad points to loaning though but might make you feel mentally better about moving him on sooner rather than later, even if he's still in rehab.
 

Ambers Echo

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I've only met him once, but he's a nice person and would imo make a lovely club horse and friend for someone to go out and have fun with their best pal. That person isn't you so inevitably one of you is going to be unhappy. You're too nice to force him to be unhappy and too driven to compete to be happy pottering. He came to you when he needed you and that's enough.
I know it's not easy, but the right thing will come along at the right time

That means so much. Thank-you. I know it's silly. But he's a sweetheart and such a trier. My RI thinks I'm doing the wrong thing and he will event. But I am not sure I want that for him and I would end up frustrated and that's not helpful for either of us. Square peg/round hole. x
 

Annagain

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Would he cope with a bit of jumping (80 max), fun rides and hacking? A friend is looking and he could be perfect for her if so.
 

CanteringCarrot

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I definitely think there is someone out there for him. I have a friend that would suit a horse like him. Plus, if you're not in a rush or some sort of pressing situation you can be more selective.

I would trust your gut re the eventing thing. While you need the right partner for any type of equestrian sport, I feel like it's even more crucial in eventing. Just speaking from my own experience.
 

Ambers Echo

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That all sounds sensible, how about loaning with a view to buy? Then you can semi secure his future whilst he is getting stronger and becoming 100%.

I get there are good and bad points to loaning though but might make you feel mentally better about moving him on sooner rather than later, even if he's still in rehab.

I am not ruling anything out. A friend of mine has a friend in her local hacking group who has just lost a horse in traumatic circumstances. She is interested as my friend is a big Toby fan. We have ridden together a few times. She is very into groundwork and Western and would (my friend assures me) carry on with the rehab plan. So that is hopeful. Something will come up that makes sense to me, him and them!

Caol Ila - well at the moment I am not picking him up into anything resembling a dressage frame, and whoever has him needs to be happy spending a few weeks ambling about eyes level with hips and not doing a lot. But potentially in the future that is the kind of home I want.
 

Ambers Echo

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Would he cope with a bit of jumping (80 max), fun rides and hacking? A friend is looking and he could be perfect for her if so.

Eventually yes. He likes jumping, But not right now! I doubt anyone wants a mid rehab horse unless they personally know me/him/a trusted friend who personally knows me/him and enjoy that kind of work. He is absolutely fine to hack now. But I would not want him jumping yet.
 

ITPersonnage

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What I think has happened is that when Toby was quarters in he flowed quite smoothly and felt nice to ride. Now he is straighter he is findind it harder and it feels like it's hard work for him. Which it is! So he feels awkward and slightly hesitant as he strikes off which I could feel and made me think he was lame. But if you do a few transitions in a row he gets the hang of how to move and the feeling improves.

I don't want this to sound like I'm arguing with you, you know how you feel but what you have written does not lead me to draw the same conclusion as you - if this is a phase where he's starting to use the right muscles, wouldn't it be normal to find this hard? Why give up now ? Isn't this the bit that young horses need ?

There may be more to it and I am sure better people than me will have opinions too. Just seems that all young horses will go though this in order to get stronger ? Maybe this is just not what you want to do with your time, in which case, changing him for a more developed horse is probably the way forward for you. Best of luck whatever you decide, I really do hope you find what you are looking for :)
 
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