Is anyone having their say...adding any input to the new dog....

CAYLA

CAYLA

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ENQUIRY into breeding........you can all have your say, you just need to e.mail the appropriate contacts to voice an opinion (of course you know I will be)
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Apparently the gentleman leading the enquiry was on a breakfast show and he was answering some questions "I never saw it" but someone mentioned the ways in which Sweden have a law that dogs must be returned and accepted back via the breeder in the first 3 years (I loved this idea when FLH mentioned it on here and thought it very responsible) and apparently someone (on said breakfast show said) this was a riduculous idea
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I was fed this second hand so not overly sure.

Any thoughts? or points anyone may like to add............or has this been covered and I missed it.
Obs alot has to do with the state of breeding and some breed types and improvement, this is all being paid for via the kennel club and the dogs trust.

Hope all that made sense.......CC are u getting me....u usually cover this stuff
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I hate to be a sceptic but if it is being funded by the Kennel Club, even in part, then b*llocks all will happen as a result of it
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But I will dutifully google and add my views - where are the links then Cayla?
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ETA - isnt it too late to comment
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Report was published on 14th January 2010???
 
google independant dog enquiry....I dare not share my finding.....I may be in trouble
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You lot are more kennel club bods than me, I jsut hate back street breeding whatever the weather
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but apparently the gentle man was very good with his question answering and was not at all bothered about going against what the KC has previously said "even though employed by them"
 
Woooo hoooo - just read that judges should be required to give feedback immediately on any animal unplaced at a dog show.....

And if you are not placed with your dog you should ask the judge why....

RAOFPMSL
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ETA - and having skim read the whole report now, yep a nice try but I still think absolutely nothing will come of it
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The inquiry attempts to address two main issues - puppy farming/back street breeding, and issues associated with inbreeding of pedigree dogs - but we have known about both of those for a long long time and I do not personally believe that this inquiry will change anything
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See I made u laugh
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I will not be adding anything about showing just my usual rants and a rant of a different kind....thats my secret rant
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*inserts not all there smiley*
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I actaully think a vet should be more qualified than a judge to give th go ahead for an animal to be bred from, via health tests and any health issues.......so when they see a sweaty shar-pei on all the meds god sends and someone has the ask permission the vet should stamp NOWAY FRIGGIN HOSAY
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........not sure how this can happen or where the time will come from, but I would rather it be that way.
 
Some of the smaller (in numbers) breeds may be informally operating something like that. I remember when I looked into German Spitz rescue a few years back, the numbers of dogs in the country were very small, everyone knew everyone esle and when a dog came up needing a home the rescue could identify it and trace back its breeder who was expected to contribute to its care.

It worked because it was a very small world though.
 
Here I am, think you have it all in hand! The Bateson Report is the one.

In Germany there is a GSD breed warden for every region, they visit kennels and advise on which dogs and bitches to be used or not used, they inspect litters, they guide working and show people on how best to breed and where to promote their puppies and I would love to see something like that here, for all breeds.

But the KC have it in for us, it is their way or the highway, they are cracking down on us more than any other breed, yet will not implement the health recommendations put forward by the breed groups repeatedly for decades.
I think you know where I am going with this...after all the money we have paid them over the years and after the hard work that has been done, I and a lot of other people feel totally betrayed.

I will quote David Payne again, for anyone who has not seen this before and is influenced by a TV production team and the KC bods.....

Below are some FACTS which are important to this issue.


1) BVA/KC Hip Dysplasia Scheme was introduced by the GSD Breed.

2) The Haemophilia testing scheme for 'Males' was introduced by the GSD Breed.

3) The Elbow Dysplasia Scheme was introduced by the GSD Breed.

4) The Breed Survey Scheme, which included all the above, was introduced by the GSD Breed.

5) The GSD Breed has on many occasions requested the Kennel Club to introduce Rules & Regulations to specifically improve the Health and Welfare of GSD. In particular the following:
a) Only to Register Litters from Hip Scored Parents. The German SV has done this.
b) Only to Register Litters from Parents with a low hip score. The German SV has done this.
c) Only Register Litters from a sire that is Haemophilia Tested Clear.
d) Include ALL Health Screening Test details of the Parents, on KC Registrations. The German SV has done this.
e) Establish a foolproof "IDENTIFICATION" Scheme for ALL Pedigree Dogs, to ensure ALL Health Screening Tests are done on the named Dog, and NOT a substitute. Also to ensure the Pedigrees of ALL PEDIGREE DOGS are ACCURATE. The German SV has done this.
f) Introduce a compulsory DNA Parentage Test for ALL Pedigree Dogs. The USA has done this. The SV have done this in Germany for GSD.
g) A Tattoo and/or Microchip Scheme for ALL Pedigree Dogs. The German SV has done this.

6) The GSD Breed introduced a Comprehensive Judges Training Scheme some 20+ years ago, by the GSD League. The German SV has done this.

7) The GSD Breed Council now runs the GSD Breed Judges Training Scheme.

8) The GSD Breed Council introduced GSD Breed Surveys and GSD Breed Surveyors. The German SV has done this.

9) The GSD Breed introduced the FIRST Breed Show within Great Britain which actually includes Health Screening Test information and criteria in order to qualify to ENTER. "The British Sieger Event" which is run under the Breed Club Rules & Regulations of GERMANY. This is a kennel Club ‘unlicensed GSD Event, and the KC are threatening to withdraw their ‘recognition’ of this GSD Event.

10)The Kennel Club have NEVER included the Hip Score Results of Pedigree Dogs as criteria for entering Kennel Club Shows. Worse still, they have NEVER shown any intention of doing so. The German SV does so.

11)The Kennel Club will register litters from parents which are NOT hip scored. The German SV will NOT.

12)The Kennel Club allows pedigree dogs which are NOT hip scored to enter their shows and achieve the "HIGHEST ACCOLADES" up to and including "BEST IN SHOW AT CRUFTS". The German SV will not allow this for any GSD over 2 years of age, or who has failed to achieve an ‘a’ stamp for hips.

13)The Kennel Club clearly have "DOUBLE STANDARDS" - their policies are inconsistent and unfair to the pedigree puppy buying public. They need to listen to the GSD Breed "MUCH MORE" and then they will make real progress with the Health and Welfare of Pedigree Dogs. They CAN take lessons from the German SV, obviously.

14)They should cease listening to "sensationalist video directors" and their "personal drivers"

I left off the bit at the end so that middle of the road people don't get offended
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Re puppy farming, Ireland and Northern Ireland are hotbeds for it - other than tougher licensing for ownership and breeding, to make owning and breeding more prohibitive (without sounding too much like a dictator
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) and criminality and sentencing for puppy farming, I don't really know what can be done.

There needs to be huge more education of the public, the more people buy, the more scumbag puppy farmers will breed.
There are plenty of people on this forum, through no thought of their own, fell for a sad pair of eyes in a pet shop or a dank shed or a puppy brought out to them from that shed because they simply were not aware of the horrific circumstances that exist.

Broods and studs at puppy farms do NOT get walked, they do NOT see daylight, they are bred until they cannot stand and the bitches prolapse and then they are either disposed of/dumped or shot. A high price to pay for a cheap puppy.
You want a puppy? Wait for one that has been reared properly, don't fund scum, you can't save them all
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and the more money you hand over, the more incentive for them to breed more.

Also - puppy farmed puppies may not even be cheap - woman I know in rescue got a call from a woman who paid £750 for what turned out to be a mutt and it died after a few months because it was so ill
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So are you going to have your say then, and have a good rant like u do on here
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u bedda make your valid points missus and ask why the German ways cannot be introduced here....it asks for all opinions....

I also think it should be suggested that any litters produced without testing, the breeders should foot any bills for off spring treated for a hereditary problem that occurs in it's life time, and all breeders should have to have insurance to cover that (won't be cheap)
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Goody.........we prob wont be listened too....but we need to have some say....more so u bods thats are specific breed experts and can put a good point across.
I wont do anything tonight but I will do.
 
Ditto....the public need to educated.....there would be no farms if there was not a demand.

Puppy farms need to be made to pay to cover the costs of inspectors and vets to visit and they need regulating and to meet specific requirment (which need updating)
BUT BASICALLY THEY NEED BANNING OUT RIGHT REALLY.
 
"All" you need to do is to clone the Swedish Kennel klubb and I am sure you would see some change!


MurphysMinder have sounded as if she would really want what SKK offers at least <u>all</u> their members (possibly anybody visiting their homepage?), when I've talked about the services I'm provided with on SKK's homepage.

They have breeding data where I can easily check HD (hips), AD (/ED elbows), Eyes, Patella, Heart and Knee test results (depending on which tests that is registered for which breed), if they have had an official mental test (more and more breed clubs encourage that breeders try and make their puppy buyer complete such a test when the dog is (as I recall) over 1 year old, official show results, possible offsprings results, sibling's results and other things.



If I have a list of potential stud dogs, I write their name and breed and I will get their registration number, I can then chose up to at least 5 dogs at a time, write their registration number and then my bitch's number and voila, they calculate the inbreeding percentage if I use dog A, B or C etc. with my bitch.

Just because I was curious
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I once tried with my bitch's registration number together with one of her brothers number, they did the calculation but above it came a big warning triangle telling me firmly something like :
This is an inbreeding that SKK would not approve!

I felt suitably told off.
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In the virtual pedigree I can chose if it should show 3 or up to 6 generations, if a dog/bitch have been registered as affected with PRA/parented offspring affected with PRA, it will have a warning triangle behind its name or if the bitch have 5 registered litters it will have a warning triangle behind its name, because bitches are only allowed to have 5 litters according to SKK (you click the triangle and it will tell you what it means for this particular dog/bitch).



If I decide a breed, I can chose between the following : (is this not great for Swedish puppy buyers?!)
Breed info.
Registration statistic.
Animals used in breeding.
Breeding structure - "grandchildren".
Inbreedingtrend.
Health.
Mentalitytests.
Lists (with health results, mentality tests, registrations and kennel names).



By the way, I eye tested my three girls the 7 January this year (2010), two of them for the first time (they where all okay *phew*) and today, 17 January (
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same year) when I checked while writing this, the result have already been registered and are there for everyone to see.



And yes there is a law in Sweden that means that all breeders must take back puppies/dogs they sell up until 3 years after it was sold (inform those who writes the laws in your country?) and on top of that the SKK sales contract have a clause where the breeder basically can say that the dog/bitch should be returned if it at any time in the future needs a new home.



A proud member of her kennel club SKK
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General ramblings.

For any breeders on here ....... personally speaking I would not want more than two breeding bitches at one time, I don't think it is right to breed to make money on loads of litters.

I am acquainted with someone who's three bitches come in at the same time so she mates them all at the same time and has three litters on the go at the same time. This is just one breed, she keeps others too.
Yet she has been going for donkeys and is KC accredited.
Is this right? I am very uncomfortable with it.

The woman D came from, while lovely and D was a fantastic dog, had 28 dogs at one stage. HOW can you train, socialise and give enough attention to 28 dogs?!

Could there be a law that each breeder only has a certain number of bitches? Or indeed, dogs?

Why would you want more than a handful of females to breed from?
 
I was reading a piece in Dog World today about the Dogs Trusts latest stance on puppy farming. They are now calling it battery dog breeding as they think it gets the image across to the general public better, which I think is a good idea. Also saying that would be purchasers should beward of ads on the internet, in newspapers etc, don't know how far they will go getting the point across to people but it is a start.
Re the Bateson report, some good ideas but not holding my breath that any great changes will take place.
The point GH mentions about judges having to give an opinion if asked on unplaced dogs - well I always used to do that if people came up and asked me, and most judges at the big GSD champ shows give a verbal critique on each dog from first to last, so thats not exactly a new idea, in our breed anyway.
I've decided coming into these threads late is a good thing as CC always says what I want to say, but so much better
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^^ Agree, our judges normally go right down the line and will even have a chat with you afterwards if you ask nicely.
For instance at a champ show in the summer, the judge was even saying 'nice female, perhaps top size, a little pale, show her for another year, take a litter off her to a small to medium sized dog of rich colouring" because that is the way the German system would work.

Although I wish that the eminent Mr Elliot hadn't come right to the back of the line to tell me that N was 'not show quality' over the loudspeaker
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I think the numbers game is very breed specific CC - I know of large kennels of CKCS which used to have (maybe they still do have) around 50 dogs/bitches, most of which were kennelled, but they all had great temperaments
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And the showing fraternity do not breed to make loads of money on litters, they breed to get their next champion - the higher the number of dogs you have, the better chance of getting that next champion, and as long as you are a RESPONSIBLE breeder and have sufficient homes for those who are not of the show quality you require then why should this be a problem?

I have personally known of people
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who happen to have had 3 litters at more or less the same time - this was just a matter of circumstances, bitches living together can get into the same cycle like women living together can, but this was not a deliberate money making ploy
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The point GH mentions about judges having to give an opinion if asked on unplaced dogs - well I always used to do that if people came up and asked me, and most judges at the big GSD champ shows give a verbal critique on each dog from first to last, so thats not exactly a new idea, in our breed anyway.

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I am guessing that GSDs have MUCH smaller entries than CKCS if you have time to do that then
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The point GH mentions about judges having to give an opinion if asked on unplaced dogs - well I always used to do that if people came up and asked me, and most judges at the big GSD champ shows give a verbal critique on each dog from first to last, so thats not exactly a new idea, in our breed anyway.

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I am guessing that GSDs have MUCH smaller entries than CKCS if you have time to do that then
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Nope, even the big classes at champ shows. Every dog will get a grading, they are entitled to it.
 
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I think the numbers game is very breed specific CC - I know of large kennels of CKCS which used to have (maybe they still do have) around 50 dogs/bitches, most of which were kennelled, but they all had great temperaments
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See, not to offend anyone, but that (50 dogs) sounds like commercialism to me, for the chance of getting an animal that picks up at least three tickets, under a judge/judges who like it on those particular days, so that their puppies will be worth more or they can command more in stud fees.

Not trying to start a fight, I just don't like that sort of thing.
 
To play devils advocate FL whilst I applaud the publishing and availabilty of information regarding health issues, the problems occur IMHO when a new condition is identified where testing is not yet available to clearly identify and confirm the problem.

In CKCS for example, heart murmurs are easy - the dog either has one or it doesnt.

PRA and slipping patella in CKCS appear to be less common (or probably just less reported on) than they used to be when I was a kid

However the country's favourite, syringomyelia, has a huge problem at the moment - the tests which are done indicate that there is a syring which MAY lead to the condition, but does not show clearly that there is a link between the presence of a syring and the development of the condition.

Perhaps it is the case that no dog should be bred from if there is any shadow of a doubt? I personally do not think that is a viable option at the present time, until better testing/information becomes available
 
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Oh I know that GH, but why mate them all at the same time?

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Why not
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The bitches had a finite number of litters in their life time, they were good enough specimens to be suitable for breeding from, the aim was to get the next champion - so what is the problem with breeding from them. it just happened to be at the same time
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Because that is a potential of 24 puppies to find homes for, of course less, if you are running on ones you want to keep, but say 18-20. At once? In my breed anyway, I don't know what sizes other breed litters are.
What's the rush?
 
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I think the numbers game is very breed specific CC - I know of large kennels of CKCS which used to have (maybe they still do have) around 50 dogs/bitches, most of which were kennelled, but they all had great temperaments
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See, not to offend anyone, but that (50 dogs) sounds like commercialism to me, for the chance of getting an animal that picks up at least three tickets, under a judge/judges who like it on those particular days, so that their puppies will be worth more or they can command more in stud fees.

Not trying to start a fight, I just don't like that sort of thing.

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No CC it was NOT about money - you get on the same bandwagon as so many others, breeders must be in it for the profit
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These kennels were developed to be successful in the show ring - it was their owners way of getting satisfaction from their hobby! They wanted another champion to say that they had bred/made up X number of champions, that they had the top winning dog that year, not because it would make their dogs/bitches/puppies worth more
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