Is there anyone on HHO who disagrees with foxhunting?

[indie999]

Let's put it the other way round: Without the permission of the farmers and landowners to pass over their land, there would be no hunting. So we could assume that in addition to enjoying the spectacle of the hunt and its traditions, that farmers must feel they are getting some benefit, otherwise they would not put up with having all those people and horses crossing their land.

Obviously not all farmers allow access, but a measure of feeling can be gained by remembering that many farmers and landowners who had previously allowed the MOD access to their land, removed that permission after the ban, not because they had any objection to the MOD, but because they saw it as the only way they could get the Governments / politicians attention.

The only reason the farmers round our arable area allow hunting is they have shoots/gamebirds so its of interest to kill foxes! And shoots are big bucks! They dont like dog walkers in case their precious game is mauled by a dog too! ££££££££

 

[indie999]

Neilm - see what you mean, but at least that way the actual death is quicker than if it's shot and runs off half dead its a really hard decision as to which method is least cruel .. They all have their pros and cons!

I have heard this argument or rather excuse to continue hunting that a maimed fox will die a horrid death if half shot. If the person shooting is a good shot and uses the right ammunition they will kill it.

 

[Fiagai]

*snore*

And the point of this thread is....?

Put the wooden spoon down.

...If these debates are to be worthwhile then we need access to the bare facts which are unbiased and not emotional representations second hand from those who have a political agenda. I doubt we will get this...

Agreed MM & CH

All of the opinions concerning agreeing / disagreeing with Fox hunting (and by this I mean mounted Fox Hunting which was banned in 2004) does absolutley nothing to further the issues which arise from humans interactions with animals

Now whether the issues under discusion are:

Conventional Farming
Factory Farming
Eating Meat
Wearing Leather
Hunting - Shooting / Hounds / Traps
Keeping Pets
Riding Horses
etc

Then there will always be emotive repsonses from those who dont believe OR do believe that one or more of the above activities are morally wrong

This is of course normal, unfortunately these responses may be all too easily harnessed to simply go witch hunting

It is here that those that are knowledgable about these issues, those that conduct impartial emperical research and those that are willing to discuss without that avoid launching emotive flame wars are the best method of coming to a logical concensus and identifying any required changes in our behaviours

For those that are interested there have been a number of very interesting threads on Fox Hunting.
There are many experienced posters who have been involved variously in shooting / Trapping / Hunting etc. and have posted some very informative points - most of which have been asked about again in this thread. I did notice someone here posting about trapping + shooting and suggesting it was a good idea - I suggest the use the search facility to find some very interesting first hand accounts of how exactly foxes react to be trapped and other matters that have been already already debated

It is possible to make any claim based on opinion but that does not make it necessarily true. For Example I may believe that the earth is flat and I can jump up and down and scream that this is so and berate anyone that says otherwise BUT that does not make it so

Imo this thread has served to simply rake the cold ashes of personal emotive response without thought or reason. I remain sceptic as to why the OP decided to resurect it in the manner of a virtual pogrom

 

[LaurenBay]

I will admit, before joining HHO, I was completly closed minded about Fox hunting. I was dead against it!

But after I have actually researched it and listened to everyones opinions. I can see why hunting is needed. Although I still hate the thought of a pack of dogs chasing the Fox then ripping it to pieces. But whats the alternative? Poison is likley to kill other animals as well as Foxes. Shooting, well what if the bullet doesn't kill the Fox and it has a slow and painful death as a result of a bad shot.

I live in a town and see so many Foxes here. But then again, I can understand why they would want to live in towns. Rubbish and scraps of food everywhere!

 

[rhino]

If these debates are to be worthwhile then we need access to the bare facts which are unbiased and not emotional representations second hand from those who have a political agenda. I doubt we will get this...

But the OP of this thread was a fairly straightforward question. She was perfectly within her right on a public forum to ask a question, and there is nothing in the terms and conditions to say that every OP has to have a starting point free of bias HHO would be a rather different place if everyone had to sit on the fence constantly

If you want a 'debate' on hunting feel free to start one and set your 'guidelines' that you would like posters to adhere to.

As to the OP's intentions, why does that bother you so much? She asked a question on a public forum...

 

[fburton]

But after I have actually researched it and listened to everyones opinions. I can see why hunting is needed.

But is it as needed as much as it is (or was) done? Were all the foxes killed causing a problem?

I am not extremely pro- or anti-hunting - I think it's a grey area.

 

[cptrayes]

Let's put it the other way round: Without the permission of the farmers and landowners to pass over their land, there would be no hunting. So we could assume that in addition to enjoying the spectacle of the hunt and its traditions, that farmers must feel they are getting some benefit, otherwise they would not put up with having all those people and horses crossing their land.

Drag hunts?

 

[Moomin1]

Agreed MM & CH

All of the opinions concerning agreeing / disagreeing with Fox hunting (and by this I mean mounted Fox Hunting which was banned in 2004) does absolutley nothing to further the issues which arise from humans interactions with animals

Now whether the issues under discusion are:

Conventional Farming
Factory Farming
Eating Meat
Wearing Leather
Hunting - Shooting / Hounds / Traps
Keeping Pets
Riding Horses
etc

Then there will always be emotive repsonses from those who dont believe OR do believe that one or more of the above activities are morally wrong

This is of course normal, unfortunately these responses may be all too easily harnessed to simply go witch hunting

It is here that those that are knowledgable about these issues, those that conduct impartial emperical research and those that are willing to discuss without that avoid launching emotive flame wars are the best method of coming to a logical concensus and identifying any required changes in our behaviours

For those that are interested there have been a number of very interesting threads on Fox Hunting.
There are many experienced posters who have been involved variously in shooting / Trapping / Hunting etc. and have posted some very informative points - most of which have been asked about again in this thread. I did notice someone here posting about trapping + shooting and suggesting it was a good idea - I suggest the use the search facility to find some very interesting first hand accounts of how exactly foxes react to be trapped and other matters that have been already already debated

It is possible to make any claim based on opinion but that does not make it necessarily true. For Example I may believe that the earth is flat and I can jump up and down and scream that this is so and berate anyone that says otherwise BUT that does not make it so

Imo this thread has served to simply rake the cold ashes of personal emotive response without thought or reason. I remain sceptic as to why the OP decided to resurect it in the manner of a virtual pogrom

You clearly would never make a detective would you?!!! I haven't been on HHO for very long and I have never seen any past threads relating to this issue. It was merely a thought that popped into my head one evening and I thought I would ask. Once again, I am deeply sorry that my simple and unbiased question on a public forum appears to have touched a very raw nerve with you. Next time I dare to post a thread on HHO I will be sure to PM you first to ensure it is acceptable for you.

 

[Moomin1]

But the OP of this thread was a fairly straightforward question. She was perfectly within her right on a public forum to ask a question, and there is nothing in the terms and conditions to say that every OP has to have a starting point free of bias HHO would be a rather different place if everyone had to sit on the fence constantly

If you want a 'debate' on hunting feel free to start one and set your 'guidelines' that you would like posters to adhere to.

As to the OP's intentions, why does that bother you so much? She asked a question on a public forum...

Thankyou Rhino!!

 

[NeilM]

Drag hunts?

I guess some farmers just like the hunt to still exist, tradition and all that.

Like I said, no country, no hunt, so the Master(s) of a drag hunt must be a very skilled negotiator.

 

[LouandBee]

They just seem to do it for fun. Ok, I've got no evidence as to what a happy fox looks like but it's the fact that they will destroy and kill as many animals as a cage will hold and leave the carcasses there (not eat them) suggests that they don't kill simply because they need to.

Hmmm and I suppose the hounds only kill the fox because they need too?

Sorry but haven't read all the posts but yes there are plenty who don't agree with fox hunting. In my opinion it's barbaric and a good way to lame a horse. I think it should be banned outright and people should just go for a hack with thier mates instead.

 

[cptrayes]

I guess some farmers just like the hunt to still exist, tradition and all that.

Like I said, no country, no hunt, so the Master(s) of a drag hunt must be a very skilled negotiator.

NeilM I think it's exactly the same as for fox hunting. One is that they like to see the hunt, two is that hunts, drag as well, collect their fallen stock (for non-hunters, dead and needs-to-be-dead animals). As a drag hunter regularly meeting landowners, I don't think most of them care much about whether hunts catch foxes, to be hones. I get the impression that most farmers are perfectly happy to shoot or snare or gas or poison them.

 

[cyberhorse]

But the OP of this thread was a fairly straightforward question. She was perfectly within her right on a public forum to ask a question, and there is nothing in the terms and conditions to say that every OP has to have a starting point free of bias HHO would be a rather different place if everyone had to sit on the fence constantly

If you want a 'debate' on hunting feel free to start one and set your 'guidelines' that you would like posters to adhere to.

As to the OP's intentions, why does that bother you so much? She asked a question on a public forum...

What?!? Excuse me I was not criticising the OP at any points in my posts in this topic so please read them and bear that in mind! During the course of this thread many posters have been referring to the fact that when the public debate is held regarding hunting not a lot of the facts are debated or information given to the public. I was merely agreeing with this theme! Please see the post above mine as to how the conversation was going at that time...

I do NOT want to set rules for any threads that is NOT my desire OR intention and where have I ever said this? No it does not bother me at all that people have an opinion, this is the basis for having a discussion on a public forum, so on why earth are you having a go and making this personal? Am I not entitled to hold an opinion? i.e. my opinion being that I agree with the posts that refer to politics and the hunting debate that went before mine. I really honestly don't get where you are going with this, why would you be trying to make me out to be someone I am not?

 

[rhino]

What?!? Excuse me I was not criticising the OP at any points in my posts in this topic so please read them and bear that in mind!

Overreaction much? I quoted one of your posts as you mentioned the validity of 'these debates' and in my opinion the OP was merely asking for opinions, she had not set it up as a measured debate.

I never said you were criticising anyone, merely that several people were making assumptions about the motivation of the OP.

You obviously took my post very personally, and please accept it wasn't meant to be. I quoted that post for a specific reason and because I'm couldn't be bothered to make repeated quotes. Again, the difficulty in extracting meaning from posts, the 'You' was for the reader, not necessarily you as a poster.

 

[cyberhorse]

Overreaction much? I quoted one of your posts as you mentioned the validity of 'these debates' and in my opinion the OP was merely asking for opinions, she had not set it up as a measured debate.

I never said you were criticising anyone, merely that several people were making assumptions about the motivation of the OP.

You obviously took my post very personally, and please accept it wasn't meant to be. I quoted that post for a specific reason and because I'm couldn't be bothered to make repeated quotes. Again, the difficulty in extracting meaning from posts, the 'You' was for the reader, not necessarily you as a poster.

If you directly quote a post using you and your and asking "why does it bother you so much?" I think it is only fairly natural to assume the question is at the poster who is quoted, so a reaction to this is natural. I feel I have answered the questions you posed so I am done. You have stated it was not intended to be personal more generalised the you/your - so fair enough I now won't take it to be intended in that way.

 

[Countrychic]

NeilM you still haven't answered the question

 

[NeilM]

NeilM you still haven't answered the question

What question?

Do I disagree with fox hunting? No I don't.

What I do disagree with is legislation brought in by a Government for purely political reason, hidden under the guise of concern for animal welfare. The whole act was forced through to appease the Labour back benches and to allow them to 'have a go at the toffs'.

 

[Dolcé]

I hate it. People say foxes are over populated? I live in the middle of the country and it's such a rare occasion that I actually see one. It gives me such a thrill to see a wild fox, but when cars and hunts are killing them...No, I can't agree with that.

One of my extremely rare sightings!
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j308/gothic180/Fox011-1.jpg

Like Welshie said, I don't like people interfering and sabotaging hunts, that can get downright nasty.

When we lived in the middle of nowhere we saw 1 fox in the several years we were there, rural foxes are completely different to urban ones. Now we are back in an urban area with the horses kept on the edge just into a countryside area we see them at the yard and at home several times a day, through the day, there are shed loads of them! Whilst I love to see them the devastation they wreak amongst my hens is incredibly painful to deal with - to the point that when the hens die off they will not be replaced, yet in the countryside they ran completely free range for years with no losses.

 

[Countrychic]

No, I asked are you saying you hunt just to save the foxes from having to be shot and protect the farmers stock?
If badgers were killing the stock but the only way to kill them humanely was to run miles round the countryside rather than ride and whallop them on the back of the head would you be as keen? You could still get dressed up though!
Do you worry about the rabbits that are shot by farmers that aren't a good shot?
What about deer hunting?

 

[Ranyhyn]

I can't stand the thought of killing anything. However as a landowners and sheep farmers it's something we cannot avoid.
My OH has assured me the gentleman who comes to despatch our foxes is a fabulous shot and that it is very cleanly done.
I'll never be happy about it. I wouldn't let the hunt come across our land if they wanted to, because I don't believe in taking enjoyment in killing and too many people (NOT ALL) actually do take enjoyment from it.
It's a necessary evil but not one that one should do with a smile on your face. IMO

 

[Countrychic]

Totally agree with the above

 

[RunToEarth]

But is it as needed as much as it is (or was) done? Were all the foxes killed causing a problem?

I am not extremely pro- or anti-hunting - I think it's a grey area.

hunting with hounds proposed a solution to a problem created by our ancestors. A fox (and a badger) 's natural predators are the lynx, bear, wolf and golden eagle. The three former are no longer native to the UK because of humans, the golden eagle is rare to Scotland and responsible for a very small amount of predation control.
The badger since it was protected breeds without any natural culling, which is why we are now reviewing and debating its protection.
Fox hunting, in my opinion, was a more sensible way to cull- shooting a fox as vermin allows you to disregard any natural breeding season, which means that gamekeepers who previously relied on hunting as predation control, now have to control culling themselves, and due to the commitment to their own breeding seasons for gamebirds the most sensible time for them to cull is in the fox's breeding season.

 

[marmalade76]

What question?

Do I disagree with fox hunting? No I don't.

What I do disagree with is legislation brought in by a Government for purely political reason, hidden under the guise of concern for animal welfare. The whole act was forced through to appease the Labour back benches and to allow them to 'have a go at the toffs'.

Exactly, which is why it is illegal to kill foxes, hares and deer with dogs and not rabbits and rats, 'cause rabbiters and ratters don't have followers who dress up and ride along with them!

 

[MerrySherryRider]

But surely working class blood sports like cock fighting and dog fighting were banned first ?

 

[JFTDWS]

But surely working class blood sports like cock fighting and dog fighting were banned first ?

The difference being that the toffs don't breed foxes to hunt them!

 

[NeilM]

No, I asked are you saying you hunt just to save the foxes from having to be shot and protect the farmers stock?
If badgers were killing the stock but the only way to kill them humanely was to run miles round the countryside rather than ride and whallop them on the back of the head would you be as keen? You could still get dressed up though!
Do you worry about the rabbits that are shot by farmers that aren't a good shot?
What about deer hunting?

I didn't realise that question was aimed only at me.

To answer, I don't hunt, anything, at all, ever.

I intend to start hunting with hounds next season, as I think my pony and I would enjoy the experience.

As for killing foxes, rabbits, deer, or anything else. I have done more than my fair share of that in the past, with snares, ferrets, hawks and rifles; these days I prefer to live and let live. I have never used a shotgun on any form of game, I have always found shotguns to be noisy and inefficient.

Regarding accuracy, I used to regularly shoot rabbits in the head with an air rifle at out to 50 yards (and am happy to demonstrate those somewhat rusty skills to anyone who doubts my word).

Regarding injured animals, I choose not to worry about things I can do nothing about. I have always shown respect for my quarry (well, maybe not rats) and have only once taken an ill advised shot, which did not kill a rabbit cleanly and required a fast follow up shot at close range. It was not a nice experience, and I never did it again. If I cannot kill cleanly, then I don't do it. I have no control over other hunters, so there's really nothing I can do about it, and as I believe in civil liberties, I am not about to call on my local MP to try and introduce yet more 'nanny state' legislation.

Your comment about getting dressed up is telling. This in my opinion is why the majority of people object to hunting. They ignore tradition, although they love the Household Cavalry, and simply see a bunch of toffs dressed up.

Anyone ever been to a horse show? Watched any showing class? Been to a dressage competition? Do you see the riders slopping about in baggies and a blouson jacket? No, of course not, because a certain standard of dress is required. Same with hunting.

EDIT: How come someone in a showing class, wearing tweed, a stock, cream jods and polished black boots is considered well turned out. But the same person, on the same horse and wearing the same riding clothes at a hunt is 'dressed up'?

 

[cptrayes]

The difference being that the toffs don't breed foxes to hunt them!

Possibly not ...

I have done a lot of research following a discussion earlier this year that you can find on the Hunting Forum if you are interested. At the end of that long, long, discussion I came to the conclusion that fox hunts genuinely conserve fox and produce a more healthy fox population, but that this also, either deliberately or just as a side effect, creates a younger, fitter, healthier fox population in the area, which will provide maximum sport for the mounted followers in being able to run further and faster.

I'll leave you to decide for yourselves whether that is a bad thing or not.

 

[JFTDWS]

Possibly not ...

I think you misinterpret my comment - I meant that it is morally abhorrent to breed a dog or cock to fight it, in a manner which is not comparable to hunting a subset of a population of a wild species which may be considered a "pest". In the same way that shooting rabbits is not comparable to cock fighting

fwiw, it stands to reason that any selective pressure of that nature would have beneficial effects on the survival skills of a population, given that relatively few foxes are killed by the hunt - it's not something I would feel the need to research, since it is relatively well established scientifically - and even in inuit legend the wolf was introduced to the world to improve the caribou

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I have never like the idea of chasing a fox hunting .

1. chasing a scared animal then letting the dogs rip it to shreds
2. Horses jumping anything in their way ( seen horses jumping a ditch which had farm machinery the other side ) I wont go into detail of what happened.


I like drag hunting

the thrill of the hunt with the dogs
rest bites for horses to catch their breath
safe obstacles for horses.


IMO you would not know the difference if you joined *A* hunt in the middle of the pack once the hunt had started. and no one told you if it was a real hunt or drag. IMO you would not know.

Mock hunting is a gr8 introduction to hunting

steady no dogs to wind horses up smaller jumps
good for young or beginners

ATEOTD .
You want a good day
jump some jumps
the thrill of the dogs and horns and huntsman
and the feeling of greatness being on your horse as part of the hunt knowing what you jump is as safe as it can be.

coming home safe with your horse safe having had a good day.

Now I know accidents happen at anytime. But I like the feeling of knowing what lies ahead is known to be safe rather that the unknown.

 

[marmalade76]

I have never like the idea of chasing a fox hunting .

1. chasing a scared animal then letting the dogs rip it to shreds
2. Horses jumping anything in their way ( seen horses jumping a ditch which had farm machinery the other side ) I wont go into detail of what happened.


I like drag hunting

the thrill of the hunt with the dogs
rest bites for horses to catch their breath
safe obstacles for horses.


IMO you would not know the difference if you joined *A* hunt in the middle of the pack once the hunt had started. and no one told you if it was a real hunt or drag. IMO you would not know.

Mock hunting is a gr8 introduction to hunting

steady no dogs to wind horses up smaller jumps
good for young or beginners

ATEOTD .
You want a good day
jump some jumps
the thrill of the dogs and horns and huntsman
and the feeling of greatness being on your horse as part of the hunt knowing what you jump is as safe as it can be.

coming home safe with your horse safe having had a good day.

Now I know accidents happen at anytime. But I like the feeling of knowing what lies ahead is known to be safe rather that the unknown.

I think that a lot of folks who have both foxhunted and dragged/bloodhounded would disagree with you re. safety.

For example :-

Re: confused - different hunts/hound exercise/hunt rides

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Farmers Bloodhounds - splutter, splutter. I watched once and thought it was the most terrifying thing I had ever seen. OMG the height of the fences and the speed! I could see what the secretary meant when she said don't come out on your 4 year old. I was pleased I had my feet on the ground. "