Fiagai
Well-Known Member
It is the most curious thing .. but I could swear there is a very strange echo in here...
Is there anyone on HHO who disagrees with foxhunting?
- Thread starter Moomin1
- Start date
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
It is the most curious thing .. but I could swear there is a very strange echo in here...
It's called 2:47am - funny that!!!
Ladydragon
Well-Known Member
Maybe I've interpreted this badly but it seems to lean towards the suggestion that farmers in general only have shotgun licenses, are totally unaware that a rifle would be the desired choice but use a shotgun knowing it'll most likely maim - but might not be bothered?
That's not my experience, thankfully...
The warden or one of his minions is regularly called out these days for the guys who don't hold a firearms certificate/don't rate their marksmanship highly enough... It was the same when I was on the police register many moons ago - for foxes, or unfortunately, sometimes just as often, the loose dogs some muppet had dumped rather than take care of... Granted, an injured fox could die a prolonged, and horrible death but it a bad shot could also leave it still able to take down livestock... Most I've known want it killed cleanly and quickly and, if necessary, will call for help from another farmer, the game keeper etc if their own skills aren't good enough... Although there will be an obvious bias in my view given the individuals who'd take pot shots with a shotgun wouldn't be likely to call someone out anyway...
I really enjoyed reading your post...
Although personally, I know where my meat comes from as I've always had a bit of a moral issue about the animal's quality of life and humane slaughter... I'd rather see an efficient bullet used on a fox than a hunt... But I've had to clear up 'people' created mess with loose dogs, deer poaching etc and after one particularly disgusting poaching incident, I burned out... So have perhaps less tolerance for something that might result in animal death but is more about the human participants... And that's not knocking anyone who does think fox hunting is fine - it's just my own thoughts for myself...
Alec Swan
Well-Known Member
I used to enjoy hunting, then I was stopped. I was told that the world had moved on and that what had happened for centuries, and become an integral part of rural life, was no longer acceptable. I was told that this was so by those with no understanding, experience, or interest in rural life. I was told this by those who would be my moral guardians.
It still seems strange to me, however, that those who were opposed to my activities were more concerned with the fact that they viewed me as a person who looked down on them, than with any genuine concern for the welfare of any. I suppose that in a way they were right, in that I did actually look down on them, and still do.
Still, that's the way that it is. I no longer chase foxes, with dogs, and I feel so much better for that. I'm as grateful as I can be, under the circumstances.
Alec.
It still seems strange to me, however, that those who were opposed to my activities were more concerned with the fact that they viewed me as a person who looked down on them, than with any genuine concern for the welfare of any. I suppose that in a way they were right, in that I did actually look down on them, and still do.
Still, that's the way that it is. I no longer chase foxes, with dogs, and I feel so much better for that. I'm as grateful as I can be, under the circumstances.
Alec.
Keimanp
Well-Known Member
Farmers in general do only have shotgun licenses, I wouldn't say that they are totally unaware that a rifle would be a desired choice. It may just be from the area in which I live, but in my experience they don't hold the firearms certificate for a rifle but one for a shotgun. This may be due to a number of factors such as the land topography in the area, the amount of land of which the farmer owns, the local police force who regulate and check licenses and choice of firearm for the land you have permission for including the range topography.
To get a firearms license for a rifle you have to have the permission of a large area of land due to if you miss how far will the bullet go? If you have a small to medium farm you will only ever get a shot gun license for use of controlling pests and not a firearms license, unless it is specifically for on the firing range only. The people who have firearms license's tend to have the permission of multiple large land owners. You then also have to have a different calibre rifle for the type of game you are going for.
Add the belief that this time the shot from the shot gun will kill and not just maime the fox, or the frustration that its terrorising your animals and you want something done about it whilst you can see him and you reach the point of ideal-olagy versus reality.
The farmers do have people with rifles come out to control numbers of a variety of vermin but that does not stop them from carrying or using their shot guns.
The belief that shooting a fox is quick clean and effcient is wrong in most cases.
Fiagai
Well-Known Member
Re Nutcases - the point is obviously that we can all fall within this definition - anyone who spends a considerable portion of their income on pampered four legged beasties of specific variety (AND why we are have people who gather on the Horse & Hound forum btw) ....but I do forget little full moon that we do have be be seen to be overtly PC these days and I now withdraw this as it unfair to hazel and all other types of indiginous and non indiginous nuts and also my other comment to your little friend - echo regarding the pot calling the kettle black on the grounds that this may now be considered racists to pots*
*carries themselves outside to give themselves for a good flitching*
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Montyforever
Well-Known Member
One thing really confuses me ..
Why cant foxes be caught in traps (not snares!) and then shot. Then there's no worrying about them running off injured then.
Don't know if that would work as ive never tried it or know anyone that has but it seems a sensible idea??
Why cant foxes be caught in traps (not snares!) and then shot. Then there's no worrying about them running off injured then.
Don't know if that would work as ive never tried it or know anyone that has but it seems a sensible idea??
AmyMay
Situation normal
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
Also they do that for other pest species, ie mink, rabbit etc
NeilM
Well-Known Member
They can and it is done.
The problem is that it is very time consuming, as all traps have to be checked daily, if not twice a day. In the meantime a wild fox is trapped in a cage, and the damage they can do to themselves as they try to escape can be terrible.
It is a method used though, where a particular fox has taken to returning to the same place that has a food source. In the past, the local hunt used to provide this service.
Montyforever
Well-Known Member
Neilm - see what you mean, but at least that way the actual death is quicker than if it's shot and runs off half dead its a really hard decision as to which method is least cruel .. They all have their pros and cons!
its a really hard decision as to which method is least cruel .. They all have their pros and cons!
TwoPair
Well-Known Member
QR as I can't be a**** to read the arguing. The one thing that annoys me is the 'ripped apart' line that keeps being pulled out. I have been at numerous kills over the pre ban years and in every situation the huntsman/whip/terrierman (whoever wad there first) has removed the fox from the hounds and either slung it or buried it. I have never seen hounds trotting round with pads/brushes/masks/ribs in their mouths post kill.
Honey08
Waffled a lot!
I haven't read the last ten pages or so, but it would have been interesting if this had been a poll - to see numbers...
NeilM
Well-Known Member
Ahhh yes, but then where is the 'cruelty' aspect which those against hunting need, to persuade the tens of thousands of city / town living people who will be casting their votes at the next election.
JFTDWS
Well-Known Member
Honey08
Waffled a lot!
Done. In as unbiased a manner as I can manage
Thank you. I need to learn how to do that!
JFTDWS
Well-Known Member
It's easy - when you post a new thread, you just click the option for "include poll" which is at the bottom of the "new thread" page - then submit it and it directs you to a page where you can fill in the poll question and options
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marmalade76
Well-Known Member
Oh I believe she will get around to us at some point....
Seriously though, 7 billion on a planet that most scientists believe can only sustain 1-2 billion in the long-term. Currently food production is being propped up by the use of chemicals and intensive farming methods, giving us a false sense of security (in richer countries). But with soil fertility declining due to all the mineral leaching and deforestation .....I believe its only a matter of time before there is a pretty big natural readjustment of the human population.
If we don't clean up our collective act I'm sure that pretty soon the foxes will be the least of our worries....
Sorry bit of a tangent there but 'the 7 billion' issue is a subject I get quite passionate about...as you were!
There's certainly far too many people in this country, the rate they are building new houses round here is frightening. The house my OH grew up in used to be in the middle of nowhere....
Countrychic
Well-Known Member
No one has been able to answer any of the points I made. It seems easier to argue whether or not a fox is prey or not and whether this thread was started to stir and not actually defend hunting.
NeilM
Well-Known Member
Let's put it the other way round: Without the permission of the farmers and landowners to pass over their land, there would be no hunting. So we could assume that in addition to enjoying the spectacle of the hunt and its traditions, that farmers must feel they are getting some benefit, otherwise they would not put up with having all those people and horses crossing their land.
Obviously not all farmers allow access, but a measure of feeling can be gained by remembering that many farmers and landowners who had previously allowed the MOD access to their land, removed that permission after the ban, not because they had any objection to the MOD, but because they saw it as the only way they could get the Governments / politicians attention.
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
This something that interests me. The notion that town dwellers are anti hunt/ignorant, while people living in villages are blessed with some divine knowledge about all things rural.
How do those who have horses on full livery on hunting yards, yet live and work in cities, only seeing their horses on hunt days, have a knowledge of country life ?
Or those whose only contact is the daily commute from village home to city ?
How about town dwelling horseowners who have a horse on DIY livery in the countryside and hunt ?
I can understand farmers, hunt staff, farriers, gamekeepers, conservationists, dry stone wallers, hedge layers, large animal vets, etc having an intimate knowledge of all things country.
What percentage hunt members/supporters make a living from the land ?
Do those who don't have a valid opinion ?
We all have the right to express an opinion about things we have no personal knowledge of, democracy works on that premise.
Those who have a cause have the responsibility to accurately educate and respect the views of their critics, not to rubbish their right to be heard.
NeilM
Well-Known Member
That's not what I said, and if I implied it then I apologise as it was not my intention.
In truth I think that only those who are pro or anti really have any interest or knowledge of hunting, the rest of the general population, wherever they live, don't know and don't care, they have other things to worry about, like paying the mortgage / rent and having a job.
However, when the publicity campaigns get going, which they will again as soon as talk of a repeal starts, then those who are wise in the ways of PR will do their best to arouse some interest in order to put pressure on politicians.
At that point all the 'ripping apart' stories and photo's will reappear.
MerrySherryRider
Well-Known Member
No, the apology is mine, I think you were correct, I rather lazily quoted you, rather than trawling back through posts where this attitude against town dwellers is more accurately demonstrated.
It's up to those who wish to support the hunting cause not only to educate but to acknowledge the valid points their opponents have in order to win public opinion.
Extremists and entrenched ideas in both camps alienate rational thinking people.
Countrychic
Well-Known Member
But you still haven't answered the question!
IMO the people that hunt fall into a few categories
People that only have regard for their own pleasure and genuinely have no regard for how it impacts upon others. These people would probably attend cock fighting and bull fighting if it was still allowed.
People that bury their heads, they like hunting, like the social aspect, feel it benefits their horses, fancy the whipper in, whatever, BUT wouldn't want to actively take part in the organising or killing of an animal. These are the people that are repulsed by the sign of a freshly caught rabbit but will happily toddle off to tesco and buy a chicken that has lived a way worse life than the rabbit ever did. IMO this is the majority
IMO the minority left are people that are directly affected by foxes killing their livestock. They prefer hunting to shooting because they either think it's more humane or because they enjoy hunting.
My problem is very few people are being honest about the true reasons for hunting. They give poor reasons to support it. I am actually open minded but have NEVER heard a decent argument for hunting
IMO the people that hunt fall into a few categories
People that only have regard for their own pleasure and genuinely have no regard for how it impacts upon others. These people would probably attend cock fighting and bull fighting if it was still allowed.
People that bury their heads, they like hunting, like the social aspect, feel it benefits their horses, fancy the whipper in, whatever, BUT wouldn't want to actively take part in the organising or killing of an animal. These are the people that are repulsed by the sign of a freshly caught rabbit but will happily toddle off to tesco and buy a chicken that has lived a way worse life than the rabbit ever did. IMO this is the majority
IMO the minority left are people that are directly affected by foxes killing their livestock. They prefer hunting to shooting because they either think it's more humane or because they enjoy hunting.
My problem is very few people are being honest about the true reasons for hunting. They give poor reasons to support it. I am actually open minded but have NEVER heard a decent argument for hunting
Maggie2009
Well-Known Member
I cannot understand all the furore about hunting foxes as the current legislation surely provides a good day out,plenty of galloping and no poor fox pulled to shreds at the end.It is cruel and heartless to chase a poor animal to the brink of exhaustion before ripping it to shreds.Why is it the the hunting mob want to kill foxes?
cyberhorse
Well-Known Member
You make a number of very decent points here. I do not want to go too far off topic, but the supermarket chicken thing rang too many bells not to pick up on. I would not go hunting, but if I have more cockerals than I need and we need something on the table for Sunday lunch then one of the lads will go. I would not go to a supermarket where I have no idea on the welfare of the bird on the shelf. I would doubt it has had as nice a life and I would imaging factory killing to be less humane than my method. An example would be blades set and an average height for the chicken hanging by it's legs from a conveyer (not every chicken is average so you can work out the rest...btw next stop is plunging into a boiling vat (sadly I knew someone who worked in one of these places). So I get my hands dirty due to EDUCATION on the topic. This is the point I want to make from this example.
If these debates are to be worthwhile then we need access to the bare facts which are unbiased and not emotional representations second hand from those who have a political agenda. I doubt we will get this...
Keimanp
Well-Known Member
Chicken Production.
Each factory that deals with chicken production is set to a certain size and is only capable of handling chickens at a certain stage of their development, if the lorry is late for whatever reason by a week then the chickens are turned away and processed at another plant at a later stage in their development when they have attained a certain size.
There are no blades used to kill the chickens as you suggest. when the chicken arrives at a production plant it is hung up on a conveyor by its feet, hanging the chicken makes it in the most part drowsy and they don't have the muscle structure to un-hook themselves. Death is delivered quickly by electrocution and they are not generally plunged into hot vats but the feathers are removed through steaming after death has occured.
In the production of Halal meat when there is no electrocution the birds are diverted off the main line and into a room with people armed with blades to slit the throat of the bird and say the appropriate line as per their custom.
There is an awful lot wrong in the way animals are treated in mass producing them for human consumption and a lot goes on behind closed doors. A very close friend used to work in the main company that supplies to Tesco and other large foodstore chains visiting their sites and providing their IT all over the UK regularly having to crawl through the service channels running data cables. I was very curious and asked too many questions and got too much information.
mymare
Well-Known Member
*snore*
And the point of this thread is....?
Put the wooden spoon down.
And the point of this thread is....?
Put the wooden spoon down.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Keimanp
Well-Known Member
It's been a very interesting discussion, imo.
I would agree that the discussion has been very intersting and varied