quiteniceforacob
Well-Known Member
God I might relocate to be nearer to him based on your write ups! We’re too far south apparently
Joe Midgely Clinics
- Thread starter Ample Prosecco
- Start date
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Putting this here and writing it down in a muddled way, so I might remember things.
We had our lesson with Joe tonight. He was held up on the A1, so it got quite late.
It was basically a crash course of Hackamore 101.
(1) Forget most of what you know about dressage.
(2) Work on flexions. Joe showed me the correct way to ask the horse to bend her neck and head so her nose touches my leg. Joe can get her to give the correct answer as soon as he touches the rein. It takes me longer.
(3) Now combine that with movement. Because the hackamore never works on a contact, the whole bending your horse around your inside leg at the girth and pushing it into the outside rein is not a thing. Ever. That was one of my big questions about the hackamore. How the hell do you create bend when you don't have a constant outside rein?? Well, now I know. Establish step 2 while standing, then ask for that bend while moving the inside leg slightly back (what?), and keep doing that until she moves her hindquarters over while maintaining the bend. Somehow, this works. Would definitely work better if Joe was riding and not me.
(4) The front end. Ask for the bend again while moving your inside shoulder back and adding a little pressure from your ourside leg. Horse should rock backwards on her hindquarters, then step out with the inside foreleg and bring the other foreleg over. She finds this easy, thankfully.
(5) Combine these two movements. Easier said than done. Inside leg back until she moves her hindquarters, then shift my inside shoulder back to cue the front end, while also signaling the turn with outside leg. This is tricky when you don't know left from right. Or arms from legs. The point is that the horse learns inside leg back = bend, and inside shoulder back = lift forehand.
(6). Starting lateral work. For vaquero riders, it all begins with the sidepass. Take inside leg off the horse's side and apply pressure with outside leg. You're making a space for the horse to move into. Horse faffs around with various answers...forwards, backwards. Don't let her walk forwards. Joe says keep up the light pressure. One step sideways, then release. Repeat once or twice, then do it on the other side. Don't ask with a pulsing aid (like I was taught at one point). That confuses them. Ask with a steady aid until you get a try, then release.
We never got out of walk, but Joe said that if we can nail these exercises, it will be a strong foundation and make everything else easier.
He asked if I intended to go down the whole bridle horse path, eventually moving onto the two-rein and the spade, and I gave some muddled, waffling answer to the effect of I didn't have any real plans with her....I was just seeing where the universe took me (this is probably not what most of his students say) but maybe, though I wasn't sure about spade bits, given I don't have many opportunties to work with people who know what they're doing. Like I said, lots of waffle! He said there are other bitting options, which work but are a little more forgiving than the spade, so that's nice to know. I said, yeah, that sounds feasable. It's kind of a future problem since a horse can easily spend a few years in the hackamore before going to the two-rein.
I'm in a weird place. I have a young horse who could do whatever discipline I ask of her, and I have no goals or plans, like 'I want to do endurance/dressage/working equitation etc.' But I guess I know the feel I want from the horse -- that ultimate, perfect lightness and responsiveness -- and the hackamore seems like a good way to get there if you don't balls it up. I never got there with dressage, so I might as well try Something Completely Different. At least it's fun.
We had our lesson with Joe tonight. He was held up on the A1, so it got quite late.
It was basically a crash course of Hackamore 101.
(1) Forget most of what you know about dressage.
(2) Work on flexions. Joe showed me the correct way to ask the horse to bend her neck and head so her nose touches my leg. Joe can get her to give the correct answer as soon as he touches the rein. It takes me longer.
(3) Now combine that with movement. Because the hackamore never works on a contact, the whole bending your horse around your inside leg at the girth and pushing it into the outside rein is not a thing. Ever. That was one of my big questions about the hackamore. How the hell do you create bend when you don't have a constant outside rein?? Well, now I know. Establish step 2 while standing, then ask for that bend while moving the inside leg slightly back (what?), and keep doing that until she moves her hindquarters over while maintaining the bend. Somehow, this works. Would definitely work better if Joe was riding and not me.
(4) The front end. Ask for the bend again while moving your inside shoulder back and adding a little pressure from your ourside leg. Horse should rock backwards on her hindquarters, then step out with the inside foreleg and bring the other foreleg over. She finds this easy, thankfully.
(5) Combine these two movements. Easier said than done. Inside leg back until she moves her hindquarters, then shift my inside shoulder back to cue the front end, while also signaling the turn with outside leg. This is tricky when you don't know left from right. Or arms from legs. The point is that the horse learns inside leg back = bend, and inside shoulder back = lift forehand.
(6). Starting lateral work. For vaquero riders, it all begins with the sidepass. Take inside leg off the horse's side and apply pressure with outside leg. You're making a space for the horse to move into. Horse faffs around with various answers...forwards, backwards. Don't let her walk forwards. Joe says keep up the light pressure. One step sideways, then release. Repeat once or twice, then do it on the other side. Don't ask with a pulsing aid (like I was taught at one point). That confuses them. Ask with a steady aid until you get a try, then release.
We never got out of walk, but Joe said that if we can nail these exercises, it will be a strong foundation and make everything else easier.
He asked if I intended to go down the whole bridle horse path, eventually moving onto the two-rein and the spade, and I gave some muddled, waffling answer to the effect of I didn't have any real plans with her....I was just seeing where the universe took me (this is probably not what most of his students say) but maybe, though I wasn't sure about spade bits, given I don't have many opportunties to work with people who know what they're doing. Like I said, lots of waffle! He said there are other bitting options, which work but are a little more forgiving than the spade, so that's nice to know. I said, yeah, that sounds feasable. It's kind of a future problem since a horse can easily spend a few years in the hackamore before going to the two-rein.
I'm in a weird place. I have a young horse who could do whatever discipline I ask of her, and I have no goals or plans, like 'I want to do endurance/dressage/working equitation etc.' But I guess I know the feel I want from the horse -- that ultimate, perfect lightness and responsiveness -- and the hackamore seems like a good way to get there if you don't balls it up. I never got there with dressage, so I might as well try Something Completely Different. At least it's fun.
Last edited:
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
I don't know Joe, but he makes a lot of sense!
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Western hackamore (aka bosal) or mechanical hackamore?
This thing?
Or this thing?
If the latter, it rides more like any standard English bridle and isn't a tool of refinement like the Western hackamore. It's sh1t, for instance, at teaching the horse lateral flexion because of how the shanks work. The horse isn't exactly encouraged to move into the big metal thing on the side of his face. That said, I think some of the principles Joe talked about yesterday apply to it, or any bitless bridle. The main thing is that if you ride on a contact, in the way most of us who learned English riding in a snaffle are taught, the horse can easily learn to lean and become extremely dull to the hand. You have to ride on the release, and use the reins to lightly back up your leg and weight aids.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
.
Last edited:
SEL
Well-Known Member
@Caol Ila I've had her in both a traditional hackamore and a bosal. She's currently got the traditional one on although my new bosal attachment arrived a few weeks back so I could transfer back. I think she was lighter in the shanks to start with but is definitely leaning more now.
I think I'll pop the bosal back on and have a play. She doesn't need the hackamore for brakes - she's just been very clear about what she does / doesn't like and it met her approval
I think I'll pop the bosal back on and have a play. She doesn't need the hackamore for brakes - she's just been very clear about what she does / doesn't like and it met her approval
Last edited:
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Gonna start the whole bridle horse thing with Hermosa and see where we go.
Fin is much more of a whatever works kinda guy. Tried the bosal and found he could take over the steering too easily. He tanked off with me a couple times. In walk, but still. He went well in the mechanical hack for a while, then got heavy so I changed to a snaffle. Might try him in the mechanical hack again soon.
Fin is much more of a whatever works kinda guy. Tried the bosal and found he could take over the steering too easily. He tanked off with me a couple times. In walk, but still. He went well in the mechanical hack for a while, then got heavy so I changed to a snaffle. Might try him in the mechanical hack again soon.
SEL
Well-Known Member
Explain to the dumb blonde in the room what exactly "bridle horse" means? I see the phrase on US forums and I'm never sure if it's a specific discipline
gunnergundog
Well-Known Member
And for the even thicker grey haired one in the room, can you enlighten me as to what this 'spade' is that you refer to please?? My brain is working overtime......
Maddie Moo
Well-Known Member
This article explains it better than I can but I’m assuming they are referring to a spade bit which is what a ‘finished’ bridle horse wears.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
I was also going to post links explaining it better than I could. I quite like this one.
Continuing the Bridle Horse Tradition
The horse will teach you if you listen - Spanish cowboys (vaqueros) who came to North America over 500 years ago left a lasting legacy — not only in words such as chaps (from chaparreras) and rodeo (rodear) which are engrained in today’s Western lifestyle — but in their riding and horse training...
www.horsejournals.com
TPO
🤠🏴
The making of a "bridle horse" is from the Spanish Vaqueros.
The steps are usually snaffle, hackamore then 2 rein (spade bit).
Buck Brannaman has a 3 part dvd covering those 3 aspects that's very accessible. Mike Bridges is probably the most well-known for producing bridle horses.I've got a few Mike dvds and his book. Well beyond my skill level but interesting to learn about.
I'm torn about spade bits. In the right hands it's an art to see a bridle horse but so few have those good hands let alone the self awareness to know that they don't.
Amongst some western riders there seems to be a rush to get out of a snaffle and into a shank bit (one handed, not a 2 rein ("double bridle") bit), all while riding with an English contact.
Lee McLean of Keystone Equine writes about spades and bridle horses. She has horse welfare first and is hugely skilled. Highly recommend following her fb page (& buying her books if you like her writing on fb)
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
In the meantime, while Hermosa is learning art, poor Fin has to wear this.
The cob size fly hat doesn’t fit around his head and the horse size one looks stupid.
I don’t feel comfortable with spade bits because you can never ever pull on one. But if you’re doing it right and you and your horse are educated enough to be worthy of one, you never have to.
Will we get there? Who knows. It’s like asking if you’ll get to GP dressage.
The cob size fly hat doesn’t fit around his head and the horse size one looks stupid.
I don’t feel comfortable with spade bits because you can never ever pull on one. But if you’re doing it right and you and your horse are educated enough to be worthy of one, you never have to.
Will we get there? Who knows. It’s like asking if you’ll get to GP dressage.
Alibear
Well-Known Member
Horses can be incredibly well trained, refined and light in a bosal, it takes time, but it's the step you're supposed to do before you go to the spade. So in your place, I'd enjoy the bosal, I have friends who ride their horses in bosals and do everything in them just fine. One can pop the spade in for a show, but as they don't need it she rarely uses it. She's done traditional western, long-distance rides, cowboy dressage a little bit of jumping and working equitation so there's nothing stopping you. There are usually a few in bosals at the western shows, there are some rules around horse age and being able to use them so sometimes class options are a bit more limited but there's usually an unaff any bit/bridle version of most classes.
Although I've met Joe briefly I'm looking forward to seeing him more this week as having come to Western via Spanish, whilst I admire the vaquero approach I'm more in the cowpuncher camp. I do ride in a curb bit one-handed, but it's definitely NOT an English contact or English way of riding. I think I'm going to learn a lot later this week. Maybe I'll switch to Vaquero when I know more, but then I'd need a new hat!
Although I've met Joe briefly I'm looking forward to seeing him more this week as having come to Western via Spanish, whilst I admire the vaquero approach I'm more in the cowpuncher camp. I do ride in a curb bit one-handed, but it's definitely NOT an English contact or English way of riding. I think I'm going to learn a lot later this week. Maybe I'll switch to Vaquero when I know more, but then I'd need a new hat!
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Yes, I think focusing on getting her to be as refined and light as I can in the bosal definitely feels like the right thing to do. Whilst ignoring everyone who asks, "So when are you gonna bit her up?" Our fellow liveries are pretty sure that myself and another lassie who rides bitless are just weirdo hippies. She kind of is, in fairness, but I don't think I completely deserve hippy status (only a little, maybe) because the hackamore is actually part of a very old, highly regarded horsemanship tradition, with people who were (and many still are) quite the opposite of weirdo hippies. However, I have extra bonkers hippy status at the yard because everyone knows that I started the horse in my weirdo bitless bridle.
I'm very much on my own lonely planet with it. There are some Western riders in Edinburgh, and I've been in touch with someone from there who rides in a hackamore, but I've yet to find anyone around Glasgow.
Next Joe lesson will probably be in October.
I'm very much on my own lonely planet with it. There are some Western riders in Edinburgh, and I've been in touch with someone from there who rides in a hackamore, but I've yet to find anyone around Glasgow.
Next Joe lesson will probably be in October.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
I often feel as though I'm on my own lonely planet. I feel that so much!
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it's sometimes pants.
For the most part, all anyone does at the yard is give me strange looks. You're left to it to do your own thing. Having been at yards where the YO was all up in your business, I have to be happy with that. It could be worse. A friend of mine left such a yard with her youngster, in part due to being fed up with the YO's narky comments of, "She's never going to ride that horse." (for the record, she's riding the horse now, and they are having a very nice time).
SEL
Well-Known Member
I don't think references to bridle horse on some if the sites I've seen are embracing the lightness and skill referred to in that article! I was wondering about the reference to spade bits too - I have come across those and I have ridden in one. On a loose rein because I was a bit taken aback by having something like that in the horse's mouth (Chile)
Keep carving your own path. I think it'll be great to see how well you can do bitless.
Keep carving your own path. I think it'll be great to see how well you can do bitless.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I had to look up spade bits. I'm usually of the opinion that a bit is only as severe as the hand on the reins, but nothing would induce me to put one of those in a horse's mouth.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
The spade is a signal bit not a direct pressure bit. It’s for performances/ceremonies to demonstrate the highest level of horsemanship - as only the most well trained horses ridden by the most experienced riders can wear one.
Traditionally it ‘honours’ the horse as it displays their level of training. The idea of someone just turning up and riding a horse in one is horrible!
Traditionally it ‘honours’ the horse as it displays their level of training. The idea of someone just turning up and riding a horse in one is horrible!
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
This is not something that especially interests me as I’m not pursuing this tradition - but making a Bridle Horse seems to me to be as advanced as producing a Grand Prix horse. A post on this was on Joe’s page a few months ago. I don’t have an opinion either way - i don’t know enough about it to know if I agree with Joe or not. And I’m not interested enough to find out because I’m not interested in that path. But here us is the post if anyone is interested:
“The overall discussion was on whether a spade bit, pictured below is a harsh bit. I said I would post later with my view on the spade and here we are.
So, to me a spade bit is something that the overwhelming majority of riders should never attempt. It is a tool, but it is also a badge of honour and mark of respect to the horse that carries it. I use the word carries deliberately, as the mouthpiece is that size so that the horse can actually carry it, unlike other bits that are held in place by the headstall. It has always been used on horses that are working, or have some function to perform beyond basic arena work. Ranching, cutting, sorting, doctoring etc. Many Vaqueros believe that you can’t make a spade bit horse without cattle.
Traditionally the spade is only used after several years in the hackamore. Those years are intended to teach the horse everything he needs to know about feel, and lightness while allowing time for the mouth to mature. How many people pick a snaffle for their green horse, and still ride them in that snaffle 10 years later? Many I’d wager, and yet the horses mouth will have made dramatic changes in that time.
I think most people sneer at the spade because they cannot imagine a horse that is trained to the standard to wear one. The world of Grand Prix dressage, the olympics, the world equestrian games, showing at the highest possible level - I have never seen a horse attend that is trained to the standard required of the spade. That’s not to say they aren’t incredible horses and riders, but their values are in a different place.
The spade is a signal bit, NOT a leverage bit. The mouthpiece lays flat across the tongue and the signal comes from the bit lifting off. It is not a bit that is ever ridden on a constant contact, it is never EVER ridden two handed. A horse should be held to a higher standard and be far more sophisticated by the time he encounters a spade. Two hands is not advanced, or at least historically it wasn’t, that’s one of the big issues with the horse world today is that we have allowed the art of one handed riding to become rarer and rarer.
Many expressed concern over the size of the mouthpiece in relation to the size of your horses mouth . Spade bits, although you can buy off the shelf, are typically custom made to your horse. There are lots of different variations in the size and style so that isn’t an issue. The mouthpiece for your horse may not be the one in the picture. The sophisticated and knowledge that goes into building these bits is an art form of itself. They have a balance point, and are weighted to be easy for the horse to carry and be comfortable. That doesn’t happen in other bits. This is a Santa Barbara cheekpiece, but again, there are multiple variations of cheek that are designed with different purposes all to help with different breeds and conformations. Some spade bits cost more than saddles because of how meticulously they are designed.
Unpopular opinion here… snaffles are not kind bits. They aren’t cruel either, but a bit is a bit. It’s a piece of metal in the mouth of a living creature. If you put a spade in a green horse, they would be massively overwhelmed. So most use a snaffle. The snaffle is very simple and direct, but many of the same people who curse the spade, are all too happy to put pressure on a snaffle. A snaffle being a narrow piece of metal putting pressure directly against the fleshy, and bony parts of the mouth. Obviously I use snaffles all the time, I’m not against them in any way but to me they are about teaching the horse how to cope with pressure in the mouth and begin to understand the concepts of feel and lightness. The snaffle and the spade are like a shovel and a drill that can drill miles into the earth. Theoretically, anyone with very little knowledge can pick up a shovel and dig a hole, but it requires years of study, exams and experience before you would ever be allowed near one of those giant mechanical drills. The spade is no different, it is a far more effective means of communication but both horse and rider need to have spent time in study, developed the experience and ‘graduated’ before they are ready for it.
It’s important to dehumanise what we do with certain parts of training horses. People visualise the bit in their own mouth. Humans have a gag reflex, horses do not. Your horse won’t gag when your dentist puts his/her arm all the way to the back teeth, so they won’t when they wear the spade bit.
. If you could wear a bit, I promise you you wouldn’t like a snaffle any more than a spade, possibly even less!
The importance of having the training, and experience with the spade as a rider, is that the action of the spade is very unique. The whole bit is fixed. There are no breaks, joints or swivels or anything that moves besides the cricket in the middle to aid salivation. Meaning, if you pull on the left rein you’re pulling the right rein too. So before you even imagine using a spade, your horse must be able to create lateral bend from your body alone. No inside leg to outside rein business. It all must come from the body.
Traditionally a horse will first encounter the spade during the two rein stage, this stage allows the rider to ride from the bosalito, a small hackamore, without touching the spade in the early days. The process of the horse feeling the spade bit is a gradual one. Many stay in the two rein forever, but for those that seek their horses straight up in the bridle eventually the mecate is removed. The bosalito is still worn as a mark of respect to the horse.
The act of riding in a spade is lighter than most of the horse world can fathom. If you were to tie your reins to the spade using a hair from your horses mane, you should never pull enough to break that hair. It is a subtlety of communication that far exceeds most riders imaginations. We have a very different idea there of what in unkind to the horse.
For anyone that has seen Remys demos or video series you will know that the entire focus is the developments of try, lightness and communication through the human body. The reins come second. Only when the body is functioning as the start, stop and turn without the use of the hand would remy be ready for the two rein . More than that, he would need to be stopping from trot and canter using only the seat, walking into canter, cantering into walk, turning around over his hocks, performing flying lead changes, collecting with lightness, half passing in walk trot and canter as well as loads of other things ONE HANDED before I would entertain the notion of advancement. That will take years.
So to those of you who said it’s only as harsh as the riders hands. That’s true in the case of the spade, but interestingly, many of those who condemn the spade are happy to use other bits that have been designed solely with the intention of causing pain … like a three ring gag. To me, those bits are something of a paradox, you can be light on them and not pull, but you wouldn’t be using it if you didn’t need to pull.
That’s not the point of the spade. The spade is about offering a horse a comfortable, BALANCED, mouthpiece from which a more sophisticated level of communication can be made.. it’s bits like the gag that give advanced bits a bad name, but because of its complex use and the knowledge required to use a spade, very few people use them, and let’s be honest, if they were as awful as people believe, you’d see them being used far more frequently to ‘discipline’ a horse. But they are not awful, they are simply more sophisticated than many riders skill level.
I see a Spade bit as a mark of true devotion to the horse. I see it as a symbol of the excellence that that horse has achieved with a functioning skill set. I see it as a nod to the vast history of the Vaquero tradition and I certainly don’t see it as a harsh bit. I see it as a bit that requires a certain level of education before it should be tried, but always a dream to chase.
Above all else… I have never seen a TRUE bridle horse that is unhappy.
This is of course one man’s opinion. Will Remy ever get here? Maybe, maybe not. That’s because the art of the buckaroo will always put the horse first, and if he isn’t ever ready, then he will never be made to be”
“The overall discussion was on whether a spade bit, pictured below is a harsh bit. I said I would post later with my view on the spade and here we are.
So, to me a spade bit is something that the overwhelming majority of riders should never attempt. It is a tool, but it is also a badge of honour and mark of respect to the horse that carries it. I use the word carries deliberately, as the mouthpiece is that size so that the horse can actually carry it, unlike other bits that are held in place by the headstall. It has always been used on horses that are working, or have some function to perform beyond basic arena work. Ranching, cutting, sorting, doctoring etc. Many Vaqueros believe that you can’t make a spade bit horse without cattle.
Traditionally the spade is only used after several years in the hackamore. Those years are intended to teach the horse everything he needs to know about feel, and lightness while allowing time for the mouth to mature. How many people pick a snaffle for their green horse, and still ride them in that snaffle 10 years later? Many I’d wager, and yet the horses mouth will have made dramatic changes in that time.
I think most people sneer at the spade because they cannot imagine a horse that is trained to the standard to wear one. The world of Grand Prix dressage, the olympics, the world equestrian games, showing at the highest possible level - I have never seen a horse attend that is trained to the standard required of the spade. That’s not to say they aren’t incredible horses and riders, but their values are in a different place.
The spade is a signal bit, NOT a leverage bit. The mouthpiece lays flat across the tongue and the signal comes from the bit lifting off. It is not a bit that is ever ridden on a constant contact, it is never EVER ridden two handed. A horse should be held to a higher standard and be far more sophisticated by the time he encounters a spade. Two hands is not advanced, or at least historically it wasn’t, that’s one of the big issues with the horse world today is that we have allowed the art of one handed riding to become rarer and rarer.
Many expressed concern over the size of the mouthpiece in relation to the size of your horses mouth . Spade bits, although you can buy off the shelf, are typically custom made to your horse. There are lots of different variations in the size and style so that isn’t an issue. The mouthpiece for your horse may not be the one in the picture. The sophisticated and knowledge that goes into building these bits is an art form of itself. They have a balance point, and are weighted to be easy for the horse to carry and be comfortable. That doesn’t happen in other bits. This is a Santa Barbara cheekpiece, but again, there are multiple variations of cheek that are designed with different purposes all to help with different breeds and conformations. Some spade bits cost more than saddles because of how meticulously they are designed.
Unpopular opinion here… snaffles are not kind bits. They aren’t cruel either, but a bit is a bit. It’s a piece of metal in the mouth of a living creature. If you put a spade in a green horse, they would be massively overwhelmed. So most use a snaffle. The snaffle is very simple and direct, but many of the same people who curse the spade, are all too happy to put pressure on a snaffle. A snaffle being a narrow piece of metal putting pressure directly against the fleshy, and bony parts of the mouth. Obviously I use snaffles all the time, I’m not against them in any way but to me they are about teaching the horse how to cope with pressure in the mouth and begin to understand the concepts of feel and lightness. The snaffle and the spade are like a shovel and a drill that can drill miles into the earth. Theoretically, anyone with very little knowledge can pick up a shovel and dig a hole, but it requires years of study, exams and experience before you would ever be allowed near one of those giant mechanical drills. The spade is no different, it is a far more effective means of communication but both horse and rider need to have spent time in study, developed the experience and ‘graduated’ before they are ready for it.
It’s important to dehumanise what we do with certain parts of training horses. People visualise the bit in their own mouth. Humans have a gag reflex, horses do not. Your horse won’t gag when your dentist puts his/her arm all the way to the back teeth, so they won’t when they wear the spade bit.
. If you could wear a bit, I promise you you wouldn’t like a snaffle any more than a spade, possibly even less!
The importance of having the training, and experience with the spade as a rider, is that the action of the spade is very unique. The whole bit is fixed. There are no breaks, joints or swivels or anything that moves besides the cricket in the middle to aid salivation. Meaning, if you pull on the left rein you’re pulling the right rein too. So before you even imagine using a spade, your horse must be able to create lateral bend from your body alone. No inside leg to outside rein business. It all must come from the body.
Traditionally a horse will first encounter the spade during the two rein stage, this stage allows the rider to ride from the bosalito, a small hackamore, without touching the spade in the early days. The process of the horse feeling the spade bit is a gradual one. Many stay in the two rein forever, but for those that seek their horses straight up in the bridle eventually the mecate is removed. The bosalito is still worn as a mark of respect to the horse.
The act of riding in a spade is lighter than most of the horse world can fathom. If you were to tie your reins to the spade using a hair from your horses mane, you should never pull enough to break that hair. It is a subtlety of communication that far exceeds most riders imaginations. We have a very different idea there of what in unkind to the horse.
For anyone that has seen Remys demos or video series you will know that the entire focus is the developments of try, lightness and communication through the human body. The reins come second. Only when the body is functioning as the start, stop and turn without the use of the hand would remy be ready for the two rein . More than that, he would need to be stopping from trot and canter using only the seat, walking into canter, cantering into walk, turning around over his hocks, performing flying lead changes, collecting with lightness, half passing in walk trot and canter as well as loads of other things ONE HANDED before I would entertain the notion of advancement. That will take years.
So to those of you who said it’s only as harsh as the riders hands. That’s true in the case of the spade, but interestingly, many of those who condemn the spade are happy to use other bits that have been designed solely with the intention of causing pain … like a three ring gag. To me, those bits are something of a paradox, you can be light on them and not pull, but you wouldn’t be using it if you didn’t need to pull.
That’s not the point of the spade. The spade is about offering a horse a comfortable, BALANCED, mouthpiece from which a more sophisticated level of communication can be made.. it’s bits like the gag that give advanced bits a bad name, but because of its complex use and the knowledge required to use a spade, very few people use them, and let’s be honest, if they were as awful as people believe, you’d see them being used far more frequently to ‘discipline’ a horse. But they are not awful, they are simply more sophisticated than many riders skill level.
I see a Spade bit as a mark of true devotion to the horse. I see it as a symbol of the excellence that that horse has achieved with a functioning skill set. I see it as a nod to the vast history of the Vaquero tradition and I certainly don’t see it as a harsh bit. I see it as a bit that requires a certain level of education before it should be tried, but always a dream to chase.
Above all else… I have never seen a TRUE bridle horse that is unhappy.
This is of course one man’s opinion. Will Remy ever get here? Maybe, maybe not. That’s because the art of the buckaroo will always put the horse first, and if he isn’t ever ready, then he will never be made to be”
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
There are lots of horse traditions that I think should be consigned to history and loading that much metal into a horse mouth is, I feel, one of them. I get what the intention is these days, but so far as i can see, it can only have originally been designed for the purpose SEL saw in Chile, to control a horse by raising the spade into the palate. I don't understand why anyone would agree to put one in their horse's mouth.
.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I stopped at that sentence, sorry. I'm not really interested in the views of someone who criticises continuing to use a bit the horse is happy in which is working well. Most people don't need to change their bit to a potentially harsher one to prove they've trained their horse well.
.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Fair enough. I don't have any skin in this game. Just sharing for those who asked what a spade bit is and might be interested n the tradition and history.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Sorry AE, that wasn't intended to be critical of you for posting it. It is good to understand things.
.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
I do think some traditions should be consigned to history. And there is too much mystique created around doing unnecesssary things just because they are very hard to do! Though later in what I posted, Joe says it is about subtlety and refinement, not control.
I can't see how that works, really. But then again I also don't lnow why a double bridle and spurs are necessary (compulsory?) for higher levels of dressage. And as I won't progress to those levels in dressage either, I am not invested enough to learn! Snaffle is perfectly good enough for me for my horse's full lifetime.
I can't see how that works, really. But then again I also don't lnow why a double bridle and spurs are necessary (compulsory?) for higher levels of dressage. And as I won't progress to those levels in dressage either, I am not invested enough to learn! Snaffle is perfectly good enough for me for my horse's full lifetime.
tda
Well-Known Member
Quite interesting, that they expect that to get to the bridle horse level you have to ride for several years with the bosal, so if you can already do everything in that why bother with the spade? 
Alibear
Well-Known Member
I'm no expert, but I think in a bosal you're still going to move your hand; spade you're not moving your hand, but potentially you might occasionally move your fingers/grip.
Two rein is a small bosal (bosalita?) under the bridle with the spade bit. If you need to use your hand you use the bosalita, not the spade.
I'm told spades are made to suit the individual horse's pallet and bar angles and are aimed to be comfortable for the horse.
Two rein is a small bosal (bosalita?) under the bridle with the spade bit. If you need to use your hand you use the bosalita, not the spade.
I'm told spades are made to suit the individual horse's pallet and bar angles and are aimed to be comfortable for the horse.
SEL
Well-Known Member
I "get" the history and where it came from and where someone like Joe is aspiring to be - in much the same way as I "get" higher level dressage whilst often turning the TV off because I don't like the tension I see.
I've actually done the NS bitting certificate so have some knowledge on the history and action of bits and a lot of the harsher ones were purely designed to be harsh sadly. I'd have to look at the spade in more detail but if it sits on the tongue at rest then any form of contact must bring the leverage up to the palate? Or firmer into the tongue maybe.
When I rode in Chile it was actually the gaucho's horse that had the spade in. We had a client horse go lame so he herded up a horse from what I thought was a feral bunch (but apparently they were just off duty!), tacked it up for himself and told me I was taking his horse so the more novicey rider could have mine. It was as hot as **** and I must have looked apprehensive because he showed me what it had in its mouth and how if I gave a good pull it would go up to the palate.
The horse turned into a dope on a rope with me and was ridden on a loose rein for the rest of the holiday. He didn't change the bridle over to the horse he'd rounded up and I assumed that was because he thought I'd need the brakes but perhaps it was because his normal horse was used to the spade and the new one wasn't.
I've actually done the NS bitting certificate so have some knowledge on the history and action of bits and a lot of the harsher ones were purely designed to be harsh sadly. I'd have to look at the spade in more detail but if it sits on the tongue at rest then any form of contact must bring the leverage up to the palate? Or firmer into the tongue maybe.
When I rode in Chile it was actually the gaucho's horse that had the spade in. We had a client horse go lame so he herded up a horse from what I thought was a feral bunch (but apparently they were just off duty!), tacked it up for himself and told me I was taking his horse so the more novicey rider could have mine. It was as hot as **** and I must have looked apprehensive because he showed me what it had in its mouth and how if I gave a good pull it would go up to the palate.
The horse turned into a dope on a rope with me and was ridden on a loose rein for the rest of the holiday. He didn't change the bridle over to the horse he'd rounded up and I assumed that was because he thought I'd need the brakes but perhaps it was because his normal horse was used to the spade and the new one wasn't.