Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
I think the point of the spade, though, at least in the Californio/vaquero school (I can't speak for South American countries), is that there is never any form of contact. Ever.
Joe Midgely Clinics
- Thread starter Ample Prosecco
- Start date
I think the point of the spade, though, at least in the Californio/vaquero school (I can't speak for South American countries), is that there is never any form of contact. Ever.
SEL
Well-Known Member
That was the gist I got from the links
So then I was wondering why it was there at all!
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Greater refinement, I suppose. Like AliBear said, you can twitch your fingers and the horse can feel it. The same question can be asked of the double bridle, which people definitely pull on.
The chances of me getting the horse and myself to that level are ridiculously low. It's far more likely we will spend the foreseeable future in a bosal, or maybe a bosalito if we push the boat out.
The chances of me getting the horse and myself to that level are ridiculously low. It's far more likely we will spend the foreseeable future in a bosal, or maybe a bosalito if we push the boat out.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
If you look beyond (behind?) into the history of where the spade bit tradition came from, into the 16c and 17c training and equipment that the conquistadors brought with them to the New World you will find a whole array of "pigeon neck" bits that work on the jaw and palate of the horse. They were considered severe and for specialist purposes even in their day; the average "good soldier" horse would not have been ridden in a bit like this. I have ridden and trained my horses for 17c baroque riding displays for almost 25 years and would be well on the side of riding one handed on the curb with little to no contact (in the modern dressage-y sense), but I still think it's bizarre to think that riding in a bit that cannot be touched, and thus somehow "honours" the horse; it's a bit of a stretch. I've seen both spade and ring bits used, mostly not at all well, but occasionally with finesse. If your horse is that well trained then you don't need to use one, surely? And if you need to use one then it should be better trained......
P.S. Can someone explain why the rider has their hands so wide in the pictures?
PPS: You can twitch your fingers and the horse will feel it with ANY bit; whether the horse understands what it's feeling, or the rider understands what they're doing, is another thing entirely.
P.S. Can someone explain why the rider has their hands so wide in the pictures?
PPS: You can twitch your fingers and the horse will feel it with ANY bit; whether the horse understands what it's feeling, or the rider understands what they're doing, is another thing entirely.
tristar
Well-Known Member
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Feels like another big step forward. 2 day camp this time which was fab. Day 1 was ground work and group ridden work with my sharer. Joe focused on energy, body positioning and posture for communication and cueing the horse. And also on footfall and timing up with the feet to build connection and subtlety in cueing. On the ground first and then under saddle. Day 2 I had a private lesson to put that all together to ride a test that requires a circle at C in canter then crossing the diaganol with a trot transition at X. In practice the transition has been a mess as she is always a little bit lit up after the canter, not dialling down. In training we have been focusing on quality over accuracy so I will ask for connection and cue her when she is already with me. Not when she is distrated or anticipating. In tests, obviously, that does not work.
I rode and it was a bit of a mess. Then Joe rode and improved her dramatically. Then I rode again and she was just so much better. And we got our downward change at X effortlessly. Whether she will be quite so easy at an event remains to be seen..... I am competing again quite soon and will feedback!
I do have a Youtube clip for anyone interested. Again I am sharing on request , not putting it on a public forum, out of respect for Joe. I'll find some pics though x
I rode and it was a bit of a mess. Then Joe rode and improved her dramatically. Then I rode again and she was just so much better. And we got our downward change at X effortlessly. Whether she will be quite so easy at an event remains to be seen..... I am competing again quite soon and will feedback!
I do have a Youtube clip for anyone interested. Again I am sharing on request , not putting it on a public forum, out of respect for Joe. I'll find some pics though x
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Oh he also did a bit with Felix which was fab.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Ah, what it is like to live in a place with nice scenery and good trainers. I can't relate 
What type of things does he work on with Felix?
What type of things does he work on with Felix?
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
@CanteringCarrot : Recap of lateral flexion and vertical flexion. Then also leading, backing up and yielding to pressure. Plus basic boundaries around people.
Leading was interesting. He really focuses on a wide and back front-limb step in ground work and then ridden in older horses because it just has so many uses for ridden work and bodywork. So he wants a foal to lead by stepping into space he creates with the rope with a wide inside leg step. It sounds weird but he puts no pressure in the rope at all. In fact he drop pressure by dropping a coil of rope and foal steps into the 'release' creating by dropping a coil. He says if you use the 'soft feel' (or in some cases a harder pull) on a lead rope you teach the foal to plant a foot then to step in an unbalanced way. And he is a total perfectionist and says why would you teach a youngster to load the forehand and be unbalabced when you can teach him unload it and to step in a controlled way into space he creates. Once the yearling is reliable steps into the 'dropped coil release space' then he just start to slowly tkae the slack out of the rope and Felix followed before there was any pressre on it.
For yielding he mimics the mother. Look at the hind end (polite request equating to mum's glance). Step towards hind end - mimicking pinned ears. Swing a rope (not connecting) at hind end (mimics mum biting!) And you only need to bring in the rope a couple of times before the look or the step towards is enough for baby to step over. And they don't take offence at that, or fear that because it's a 'language' they can understand. And finally backing up. And boundaries. Both yearlings crowd the person who brings then a handful of grassnuts. They need to stop. So the advice is get big, then one they back off immediately get small and inviting. We want them friendly, but not rude. Those exercises are enough till he's 2 and can just be repeated once a month - or as needed for leading and boundaries - and then more formal education can start at 2.
My current Felix plan to to practice with him and then be better for Mylo! But Felix is getting a good start anyway I think. He will be sold as I will be keeping Mylo.
Leading was interesting. He really focuses on a wide and back front-limb step in ground work and then ridden in older horses because it just has so many uses for ridden work and bodywork. So he wants a foal to lead by stepping into space he creates with the rope with a wide inside leg step. It sounds weird but he puts no pressure in the rope at all. In fact he drop pressure by dropping a coil of rope and foal steps into the 'release' creating by dropping a coil. He says if you use the 'soft feel' (or in some cases a harder pull) on a lead rope you teach the foal to plant a foot then to step in an unbalanced way. And he is a total perfectionist and says why would you teach a youngster to load the forehand and be unbalabced when you can teach him unload it and to step in a controlled way into space he creates. Once the yearling is reliable steps into the 'dropped coil release space' then he just start to slowly tkae the slack out of the rope and Felix followed before there was any pressre on it.
For yielding he mimics the mother. Look at the hind end (polite request equating to mum's glance). Step towards hind end - mimicking pinned ears. Swing a rope (not connecting) at hind end (mimics mum biting!) And you only need to bring in the rope a couple of times before the look or the step towards is enough for baby to step over. And they don't take offence at that, or fear that because it's a 'language' they can understand. And finally backing up. And boundaries. Both yearlings crowd the person who brings then a handful of grassnuts. They need to stop. So the advice is get big, then one they back off immediately get small and inviting. We want them friendly, but not rude. Those exercises are enough till he's 2 and can just be repeated once a month - or as needed for leading and boundaries - and then more formal education can start at 2.
My current Felix plan to to practice with him and then be better for Mylo! But Felix is getting a good start anyway I think. He will be sold as I will be keeping Mylo.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Interesting! I did the same with my now 2 year old re food. They learn quickly, in my experience.
I'm having a heck of a time visualizing this right now. I think it's something that I actually do/use with my youngster, but I'm not sure.
I'm having a heck of a time visualizing this right now. I think it's something that I actually do/use with my youngster, but I'm not sure.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
I’ve done a video. I wasn’t holding the camera so it’s a bit annoying as the footage starts abc ends too late or early sometimes. But have a look at which leg moves first. Joe wants inside leg to lift and step towards him. If you put pressure in the rope - of even just don’t use the coil - the horse braces, leans, then steps across with the outside leg. Which is less balanced and loads the forehand. And introduces the concept of brace!
The very last bit of the clip Joe doesn’t coil up - to see if he was ready to start following a feel - and Felix steps with outside leg. Which Joe doesn’t want. I don’t know why the coil thing works but it did every time. With both yearlings.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
After watching this, I experimented yesterday. I was able to get my horse to step with the inside leg nearly every time. It was interesting. The time when he didn't was when I got a bit sloppy with it, or used pressure (because experiment). I also sort of invited my horse with my body and postured myself a certain way (I think this goes back to some Linda Tellington-Jones stuff that I learned ages ago). He then stepped into the space provided, that he was invited into, nicely. He still has a slight tendency to brace against pressure, usually when he's afraid of something, but he's also 2, so there's that, but we are working on being more forward thinking. He's a lot better than he used to be (actually free lunges now with subtle cues, vs just standing there not giving a single F).
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Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
I love the thoughtfulness that goes into every single interaction! There is just so much to learn. He says you can't train a horse in the first 2 years but you can certainly ruin one. Such a responsibility.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
It is, and I probably do more with my 2 year old than most, but he seems like the type that doesn't mind doing something or interacting twice a week or so.
Joe sounds like he trains in a way that I lean toward, or just naturally sort of follow.
I do think one of the reasons that I've been drawn into the world of PRE's is that they're quite sensitive and responsive to your body language, by nature, and I love that. Sure, other breeds can be this way too, but there's just something in their nature. Not sure how to describe it.
Alibear
Well-Known Member
I'm still struggling with what/how to write this up. Joe managed to restore lightness and responsiveness to mine and Ambers work. I thought our upwards transitions were OK and our downwards were bad, but actually, it was the opposite. I could do a downward transition off small aids, but I was being very loud on my upwards ones. Back off, ask nicely with intent, calf and then if no luck, one loud reminder. It took about 3 tries, and that was it. Halt to lope off a breath and a much happier and uncurled Amber. A similar approach for the lateral work leg on to ask for the step and remove it when you get the response. Reapply if/as/when needed. If there is no response, one loud aid, then back off again. Much more fluid lateral work as a result, and the lightness and fun back for both of us. I've ridden once since coming home, and it's all still in there. Amber's always been good to lead and handle, but the lightness is showing there now too. This approach worked for fixing the falling-in as well, which has pretty much solved our canter issues; we just need her to gain a little more strength to maintain self-carriage to the left.
It was just the intervention we needed, somehow achieved calmly and gently without any big light bulb moment, but its transformed our work.
Also great to chat with Ambers Echo about mindset, and I have identified a mental mouse problem, which means I can now work on addressing it.
Proof positive is that I now have photos of Amber working with her ears forwards, I'm not saying she has them forwards all the time, but it's a definite improvement. I'm really glad we got the help now, as I think we could have gone off down a not great path without it.
It was just the intervention we needed, somehow achieved calmly and gently without any big light bulb moment, but its transformed our work.
Also great to chat with Ambers Echo about mindset, and I have identified a mental mouse problem, which means I can now work on addressing it.
Proof positive is that I now have photos of Amber working with her ears forwards, I'm not saying she has them forwards all the time, but it's a definite improvement. I'm really glad we got the help now, as I think we could have gone off down a not great path without it.
Attachments
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
It was great to meet you and seeing halt to lope off a breath was awesome!
Love that picture.
Love that picture.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
So, is Joe just not the typical type in that neck of the woods? A lot of the way he trains just seems like common sense or how it's supposed to be, in a way.
Granted, in Germany many of the clinicians I have ridden with seem to prefer force over lightness and really getting into things.
Granted, in Germany many of the clinicians I have ridden with seem to prefer force over lightness and really getting into things.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
There's not a lot of natural horsemanship round us. But however Joe is 'labelled' I just think he is the most skilled horseman of any 'flavour' I have ever met. So yes it is all very simple in theory, but the level of detail, the awareness, the reading of the horse, the timing and subtlety of his feel are amazing. I have had lessons with other trainers from exactly that 'school' but none have been a patch on Joe. IMHO.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
I'm glad that you found him! And that trainers like him are out there.
tda
Well-Known Member
Admit to also trying a version of this with my yearlings yesterday , loose headed, they also mostly stepped into the space created with the correct leg
planete
Well-Known Member
For some insights on the whole two rein/spade bit question, Deb and Pat Puckett' s Youtube channel documents the training in the Chinace videos.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
PS I wish we could find a different word than 'natural'. Joe is from the Vaquero/Buckaroo tradition. It is classical more than natural. Anyway I digress......
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
I schooled Hermosa yesterday. It was a bit blah.
The good: the vertical flexion in walk and trot is really starting to come along.
The bad: me making an absolute muddle out of the rollbacks. Probably not helped that my mecate were stiff as hell due to getting soaked on Sunday (really must get some backup nylon ones) but I just couldn't seem to coordinate all the cues to communicate clearly to the horse.
The good: the vertical flexion in walk and trot is really starting to come along.
The bad: me making an absolute muddle out of the rollbacks. Probably not helped that my mecate were stiff as hell due to getting soaked on Sunday (really must get some backup nylon ones) but I just couldn't seem to coordinate all the cues to communicate clearly to the horse.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I know nothing of Joe Midgely but he sounds great. I think though that the 'best' and most sympathetic trainers make things look simple (not easy, but simple as in not complex) because essentially they ARE simple.
It is the timing and feel that is difficult to acquire as generally we try to formally 'learn' stuff at a cognitive level (in our current society and educational model at least) rather than at a more 'embodied' level. I know that sounds like woo but most of us have been taught to do almost everything at a cognitive level rather than in a more holistic cognitive-embodied way. I think a great many equestrians have found trainers telling them what to do with bits of their bodies at one time or another and I am sure that many of us have felt either alienated from our 'riding' bodies or having to work REALLY hard to think about and act on physical stuff. I think there is much fault in our learning systems which do not make the most of some kinds of learning. I say this as someone who currently has no access to good training but has done some work in another field on learning, particularly embodied learning and I think that is useful (well it is all I have currently and I believe that it is better and easier for my horses than some other stuff I could apply lol). I think it can really pay dividends to spend time feeling our bodies on or with the horse (on the ground or in the saddle) and interrogate both what our bodies are telling us (shoulder is stiff/ leg is dominant etc) and how that will inevitably impact our horses. I don't think either, that very many of us really feel 'in tune' with our bodies as a whole thing; we are taught, often to view ourselves as functional 'body parts' - especially in equestrian training (you have good hands, a stiff right leg, wobbly ankles/lower legs). How many of us can really 'feel' our whole body at the same time in a kind of unified way? I am trying to develop that personally but it's odd, and sort of hard...
It is interesting to me that many, many problems are caused by issues of relaxation; both horse and rider. Most of us, I think, have a very poor understanding of how to truly relax and at the same time apply that throughout our bodies whilst we are moving/doing something structured - that is probably because no-one tells us that stuff! And whilst it is relatively simple, it is not easy. Especially when there are cognitive distractions; fear (fear of failure, fear of looking ridiculous, FEAR fear, fear of injury etc, the list is endless), time pressure, sensory distraction, instructions being given, a desire and intention to create and work through a cognitively created plan etc. The brain body response to stress and fear is incredibly difficult for equestrians whether that fear be low level personal stress/frustration stuff or total paralysed by fear of being in the saddle, being out of control etc. Just consider the MRI stuff that shows how our brains respond to stress etc.
At the same time, think about a lot of children riding, before they are 'taught'. They (not always but often) only have their embodied learning strategies to help them and frequently you can see wonderful balance, a great seat and light hands. Of course that is a generalisation but the drift is clear lol. I think what I am saying is that the notion of 'feel' is literally that; but it is not something that many of us are really familiar with. Much work on feel can be done out of the saddle too. And embodied learning, embodied responses are the far greater part of a horse's world.
That probably doesn't make sense, isn't well articulated and certainly won't really help but it is something that I have been pondering on and really working away at in the last few months.
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Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
It makes perfect sense and is not at all ‘woo’. We learn best through feel and feedback loops not verbal instruction. Think of learning to walk!
Joe is all about feel. Actually the ‘nh’ trainers in general don’t really give much instruction to riders . They focus on feel and awareness. I asked Joe about that and he said if you focus on the feel of what you want, and the horse then gives you what you want, then job done. You WILL automatically be straighter, more balanced etc but the focus is on the feel of the horse under you and the precise movement and quality of that movement that you want.
Joe is all about feel. Actually the ‘nh’ trainers in general don’t really give much instruction to riders . They focus on feel and awareness. I asked Joe about that and he said if you focus on the feel of what you want, and the horse then gives you what you want, then job done. You WILL automatically be straighter, more balanced etc but the focus is on the feel of the horse under you and the precise movement and quality of that movement that you want.
TPO
🤠🏴
Whole host of daft questions coming your way @Cortez ...
I know nothing in depth about Classical/Traditional Spanish/Portuguese riding/training - cleverly illustrated by using the completely incorrect terminology at the start of the sentence! I do know that Vaquero riding originates from the Spanish when they arrived at the Americas. A poster on here, I'm thinking either @The Fuzzy Furry or Mother of Chickens (but their new name), recommended the book "Conquerors" by Deb Bennett. I finally managed to find a second hand one at a reasonable price, second had tends to be upwards of £75, but I digress. So I've flicked through it but not read it in depth. The subtitle for the book is "The Roots of New World Horsemanship".
Getting to my point... how are high level spanish horses ridden? Do they have spade bits/bridle horses/2 rein horses? Working Equitation videos keep popping into my social media stuff and at cursory glance the bit arms do look similar to spade bits and there does appear to be 2 reins. I know that the breeds typical used in WE vs Bridle Horses are totally different but to me there looks to be more tension (not saying tension is bad) in the spanish way and a lot more contact on the reins (so I'd assume not a spade?).
Basically I was trying to ask is there a similar path to make a "bridle horse" in Spanish Equitation? I only know bad things about metal serrate (sp?) nosebands (because that's what was written about by a UK trainer living in Portugal and what she was seeing used at shows and sold at trade stands) but is that the spanish equivalent of the bosal/hackamore?
I haven't seen anyone ride a 2 rein bridle horse in the flesh. I have a few Mike Bridges DVDs and his big book, I've watched a fair bit of Jeff Saunders (forgot to mention him in my last post, he's really well known as a Californian Vaquero and I'm 98% sure he comes to the UK) and Buck B's books & DVDs of the process. I also follow Keystone Equine who has written about training horses as bridle horses.
In fact on the thread/post that @Ambers Echo posted linking to Joe's facebook, I'm fairly certain that I've linked an article from Keystone and then Lee from Keystone has replied linking the other one. They are food for thought if nothing else.
I'm constantly at the edge of the rabbit hole swaying about over the ethics of horse keeping/breeding/riding/sports etc, and I'm fairly easy to talk into a different direction on any given day. The same goes for the whole spade bit (and other things) discussions. On one hand I sort of get the "honouring" thing, although that possibly isn't the right word. It's almost like a badge of honour (when done right!) to show that this horse is so well trained s/he carries a spade bit still in their mouth and moves off thoughts and it's the "reward" at the end of a very long training path. Obviously there are those that rush into spades/2 reins and that's when it isn't good.
On the other hand why not work on that refinement without something that looks like a medieval torture device in the horses mouth?
I guess it's the same as all things, when it's done well it's a work or art and when it's not it's abuse. The same could be said for pretty much everything that we do with horses?
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
If you take a google of Doma Vaquera which is the competition of Vaquera riding in Spain. All done one handed using a curb bit
TPO
🤠🏴
So, is Joe just not the typical type in that neck of the woods? A lot of the way he trains just seems like common sense or how it's supposed to be, in a way.
Granted, in Germany many of the clinicians I have ridden with seem to prefer force over lightness and really getting into things.
I've sat with this open to reply to you for a long time now. I can form half an answer but then lose the thread. I find your questions surprisingly multi faceted (not surprising that you've asked it, just it reads like a straightforward question but I think there's more to it).
Yeah, a western horse is ridden one handed in a curb bit too but that's different from a bridle horse.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
TPO, I'm by no means an expert in any of the disciplines you are asking about, but I hope I can answer some of your questions. Doma Vaquera is the discipline in Spain that would be the closest to bridle horse training. Working Equitation is more about the active application of this type of riding. High-ported, spade-type bits are occasionally used in Doma Vaquera but are by no means the norm. All DV competition is ridden one handed and on the curb. The serraton is indeed the precursor of the bosal, and is used in much the same way. There are all sorts of variations: flat, smooth, padded, leather-covered, hinged, toothed, etc. They are invariably covered in leather and I have seldom seen one misused. Young horses are usually started in a serrata and snaffle using 4 reins. I use the serrata routinely for young or retraining horses. Very useful.
Many people see "tension" when they look at Spanish horses, but this is a misinterpretation of the way Iberian horses naturally move and hold themselves (hint; very differently to more "modern" types). If you put a lot of pressure on a Spanish horse's mouth you will create tension, but they are not trained this way in Spain and I have always ridden mine on the lightest of reins, one handed on the curb.
I know very little about Western, and I've only every ridden a true Bridle Horse once - a great privilege, but I will say that it is very different indeed to how Spanish horses are traditionally trained, even though the style originally came from the same source. Quarter Horses are radically different in every aspect (conformation, movement, temperament) and the whole focus of balance and collection is almost diametrically opposite.
Many people see "tension" when they look at Spanish horses, but this is a misinterpretation of the way Iberian horses naturally move and hold themselves (hint; very differently to more "modern" types). If you put a lot of pressure on a Spanish horse's mouth you will create tension, but they are not trained this way in Spain and I have always ridden mine on the lightest of reins, one handed on the curb.
I know very little about Western, and I've only every ridden a true Bridle Horse once - a great privilege, but I will say that it is very different indeed to how Spanish horses are traditionally trained, even though the style originally came from the same source. Quarter Horses are radically different in every aspect (conformation, movement, temperament) and the whole focus of balance and collection is almost diametrically opposite.
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TPO
🤠🏴
Thank you for the reply.
I've actually looked out the Conquerors book to have a better flick through. Have you read it? Aside from the bull fighting photos it looks really interesting. Even a numpty like me can see how the breeds have changed visually. The book was printed in 1998 so that is the most recent any of the photos could have been and there are a lot of older ones.
@Cortez @shortstuff99 what type of mouthpieces are typically in the Spanish shanked/lever bits? Are the bits typically fixed shanks?
The good, the bad and the ugly of western shanks bits are beyond where I am and when I've ridden in them I've just ridden in what the horse came with. I do have an old Western Horseman booklet called "A Bit of Information" with Greg Darnell. It details what "legal bit" dimensions are and has a breakdown of different mouth pieces and shanks along with how they work and a detailed "Structure of a bit" etc. It pointed out what is obvious but didn't register with me in that some of the large sweeping shanks/S shanks have very little in the way of leverage but they look the most elaborate/ potential for harm due to the length whereas it's the angle.
In some fractions of the western fraternity (which is tiny in Scotland!) there are grumblings about people not using "proper" shank bits and/or using Mylers. I just find it so hard over here because there isn't access to 100s of horses, like there is on a cattle property, or people who can walk the walk.