pistolpete
Well-Known Member
Just seen an advert for a 15 hand Connemara £5k who is already jumping. Three years old ???
Jumping at three???
- Thread starter pistolpete
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Shay
Well-Known Member
Its quite common in Ireland.
Trouper
Well-Known Member
The bone growth chart for horses should be compulsory viewing for anyone even "thinking" of buying, breaking or training a youngster. Just breaks your heart to see this.
Michen
Well-Known Member
There's jumping and then there's jumping. Mine was just about to turn 4 when I got him from Ireland so still three, he was jumped in the video over some tiny x poles and loose schooled over a few very small fences. I suspect that's the only jumping he ever did- simply for a video for sale.
That didn't bother me at all, and in fact he's only jumped a handful of fences since he's been with me from March. A few fences at three and conservative jumping at four is probably better than them turning four and suddenly jumping like a "normal" horse which many seem to do.
It makes me cringe when I see early 4 year olds going off for jumping lessons personally, unless a huge amount of that is flat work.
That didn't bother me at all, and in fact he's only jumped a handful of fences since he's been with me from March. A few fences at three and conservative jumping at four is probably better than them turning four and suddenly jumping like a "normal" horse which many seem to do.
It makes me cringe when I see early 4 year olds going off for jumping lessons personally, unless a huge amount of that is flat work.
Polos Mum
Well-Known Member
I've said this before but I talked to 2 very well regarded / recommended breakers about my youngster this year. They said if he's for me and I want him to last, not to even sit on him until he's five.
He's a 15 hh mutt type that looks well grown, strong and balanced - not a twiggy warmblood or TB type.
I was calling to see if I could book him in to be broken and hence pay them a tonne of cash. Both said no thanks - no alternative motive I can think of.
He's a 15 hh mutt type that looks well grown, strong and balanced - not a twiggy warmblood or TB type.
I was calling to see if I could book him in to be broken and hence pay them a tonne of cash. Both said no thanks - no alternative motive I can think of.
Mule
Well-Known Member
Interesting and good to know
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Hopping over a crosspole a couple of times to get an idea of ability is not going to do any damage. Belting around courses of jumps is obviously not what you want to be doing with an immature young horse. Having the wisdom to know the difference is the task of the trainer. Waiting, and waiting, and waiting until the horse is five or older does not guarantee future soundness any more than breaking horses at three means they will definitely go lame later on. We don't all wait until we are 26 to start playing sports do we?
PS: The common practice here (Ireland) of jumping the legs off everything from very a young age is awful and I in no way condone it.
PS: The common practice here (Ireland) of jumping the legs off everything from very a young age is awful and I in no way condone it.
Mule
Well-Known Member
I wonder is it the toughness of traditional Irish horses that lets us get away with it? It will be interesting to see if the big infusuon of continental warmbloods will make a difference.
A friend of mine does a bit of part time teaching in a riding school and the owner of the school breaks the horses he sells on at two. She is suspicious that it's because when they break down young (as they do) their owners then buy another horse from him
stormox
Well-Known Member
They jump foals and yearlings on the continent, in Ireland there are 3 yr old loose jumping competitions and 3 yr olds are often hunted. I would love to know if theres been any research done as to whether the winners of 3yr old loose jumping competitions go on to be top show jumpers...
PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
Saw a gorgeous horse on Facebook recently. Lovely big sort. 3 years old. Loads of pictures of it jumping big cross country fences.
I don't know. It might be really good to pop them over a fence or two early on so they understand that it's part of the job. But there's a big difference between some educational jumping and jumping massive cross country fences. It puts me right off a horse if the advert has them doing loads of jumping and they are 3 or 4 years old.
I don't know. It might be really good to pop them over a fence or two early on so they understand that it's part of the job. But there's a big difference between some educational jumping and jumping massive cross country fences. It puts me right off a horse if the advert has them doing loads of jumping and they are 3 or 4 years old.
Mule
Well-Known Member
They jump foals ?
stormox
Well-Known Member
To see if they can. At the dressage horse sales they have 2 and 3 year olds doing quite advanced movements and I would think that would put as much if not more strain on young joints than jumping.
Mule
Well-Known Member
Another interesting thing i read is that the wastage level in warmbloods on the continent is very high by irish/ UK standards because they often cull underpreforming horses. Whereas in ireland/ UK the horses would be sold to an amateur or put in foal if it's a mare.
Turitea
Well-Known Member
Well, we breed mainly WBs on the continent. They are our Irish Cobs.
stormox
Well-Known Member
Thats because they eat them!
Mule
Well-Known Member
True ?
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
But is he jumping regularly or has he just hopped over a few fences to show he can? Most pros will loose jump youngsters to have a look at their natural technique and will have sales videos of them loose jumping, but it doesn't mean they jump very often.
ruby930
Member
The Connemara I broke in my self was jumping 50cm courses at home at age 3. He’s just turned 8 and I’m jumping 1.40 at home, 1.30 at shows and 1.15 xc. As long as it is done correctly should be fine
I got a go ahead from vet before I jumped him for the first time?
I got a go ahead from vet before I jumped him for the first time?
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
The KWPN did a study the results were so depressing that despite trying for several years i have not managed to find another copy. Only 25% of all horses bred made it to competition. Even now when you look at the statistics they are depressing so basically horses break. I am keeping a close eye on the Peder Frederickson experiment but that will take years to see any decent results.
Most of the pros I speak to say you cannot protect horses. You need to know if they are going to break but you also make sure you give them a fighting chance rather than actively looking to break them. It is a fine balance. Beanie Sturgis for instance hunts her 4/5yos as going is good, they learn a lot and they are not over produced and pushed on an arena.
I don't really have a problem with 3yo jumping - I prefer loose jumping. Don't really want to see it under saddle so much but its useful to know what you have. I just would not expect them to be doing much and not overproduced for it.
Most of the pros I speak to say you cannot protect horses. You need to know if they are going to break but you also make sure you give them a fighting chance rather than actively looking to break them. It is a fine balance. Beanie Sturgis for instance hunts her 4/5yos as going is good, they learn a lot and they are not over produced and pushed on an arena.
I don't really have a problem with 3yo jumping - I prefer loose jumping. Don't really want to see it under saddle so much but its useful to know what you have. I just would not expect them to be doing much and not overproduced for it.
Errin Paddywack
Well-Known Member
Many years ago at a show held by our local RC, I was helping in the collecting ring. Not sure what the class was but it was a BSJA one. Got talking to a woman on a grey Irish horse. Bearing in mind the show was in June, this horse was four and had apparently already qualified in Foxhunter classes. I can remember thinking poor horse and wondering just how long it would last.
stormox
Well-Known Member
Whats the Peder Frederickson experiment please?
rascal
Well-Known Member
Would not buy a 2/3 year old who has been backed again, he had also been jumped. I bought a cob years ago, he had been backed as a 2 year old, and was in a riding school at 3. He lived opposite my mother in laws house, and they were always getting out. I bought him at 9, gave him a few moths off, then bought him back into work slowly/ I sold him at 11 because he really hated children and ours were still young. By the time he was a young teenager he had developed back and leg problems, he was retired at 14, and put down by 16.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
What do you mean by "quite advanced"? I've never seen a 2 year old ridden at a sale on the continent.
stormox
Well-Known Member
Walk trot canter in an "outline" is advanced for a 2yr old. By 3 they are doing more! The Americans have 2yr olds for reining doing sliding stops and spins! Thats even worse.
ThreeWBs
Well-Known Member
I remember watching a stallion parade in 2019 that had 2016 foaled stallions - most were 2.5yo! Most were ridden in advanced outlines and producing extended and collected movements. It happens more than you think!
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Nonsense. Riding in an outline should start on day one when breaking any horse, there is no earthly reason to ride in anything other than a proper shape, indeed to ride a horse that is hollow and slopping along is actively harmful. Horses naturally extend and collect, there is no reason not to allow the horse to do this. I have produced stallions for gradings, they are asked to show their basic natural paces, elasticity and trainability, nothing more. This is not "advanced", it is basic. Most gradings are held in the autumn precisely because the horses are young. Anything visibly immature or below height will not be accepted for grading, and the riding tests are conducted after the initial selection, so most are 4 rising 5.
Slightlyconfused
Go away, I'm reading
Agree with this, my sisters youngester was backed at 4 as he was still weedy at 3.she is loads do stuff with him from 18months Whne she got him.
By loads I mean learning how to lead, pick feet up, walks in woods in hand, lorry training, a few inhand shows, saddle/rug training.
He took to backing brilliantly, asked for a soft outline from day one as she wanted him to have that feel straight away.
He had been lunged over poles and a few small jumps before hand as, not all the time just dotted about.
This year he was five in May, she has started asking more and more from him and doing a bit more in the way of jumping. He is doing so well.
He lives out on a undulating feild which has also helped his development.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Two year olds should not be ridden at all: god help the poor TB's who are backed at 18 months, and I have seen futurity quarter horses the same.
Working in an outline is NOT "advanced" it is the most biomechanically correct way to ride a horse. Obviously the shape of the outline changes as the horse carries himself better with training and the shoulders lift as the hind quarters lower, but there is never a reason to allow a riding horse to go flat or hollow in the back.
Otherwise
Well-Known Member
Also bare in mind the type of horses at these gradings and auctions and the type of conformation they have. Most will have well tied in necks so will find it easy to carry an outline that looks more advanced than say a cob with a low tied in neck at the same level of training will have. They'll also naturally have better balance and an uphill way of working, you'd spend far longer working towards the same point if you start with something less suited to this type of work.
You're also not seeing every horse in training, if a horse isn't going so well, taking longer to mature or having a small setback no-one is going to take it out and show it off.
There will be some that have been rushed and strong armed into an outline and the 'auction trot' in order to be ready on time but there are certainly some (hopefully most) that have been correctly started from the beginning and following a tried and tested training programme to bring them on and show them off at their best.
You're also not seeing every horse in training, if a horse isn't going so well, taking longer to mature or having a small setback no-one is going to take it out and show it off.
There will be some that have been rushed and strong armed into an outline and the 'auction trot' in order to be ready on time but there are certainly some (hopefully most) that have been correctly started from the beginning and following a tried and tested training programme to bring them on and show them off at their best.
WeeLassie
Well-Known Member
It depends what sort of 'outline' - I went to a sale of warmbloods in Bucks somewhere a few years ago - and the 3yr olds there were almost BTV and definately not just backed!