Kauto doing dressage

[Caledonia]

Good god, you'd think the horse had been sent to Beeston market & was about to end up in a tin of Chappie. Some of the comments on here are quite unbelievable. He has a lovely new home with superb facilities & is being assessed by top professionals. Who knows, he may be enjoying himself learning something new & being in a different environment. And the only person who has denied the racing public of seeing Kauto parade for the last time with the Ditcheat Team is Paul Nicholls by his fit of pique in having the horse removed from his yard before Boxing Day.

Just because you chose his name as a moniker does not mean you are any more clued up than others.

 

[Alec Swan]

KS1,

I do rather take your point!

I suspect that from his former trainer, and his owner, there has been a sorry display of bad manners, and none of them have displayed themselves in a particularly appealing light.

The horse, as you you say, is in the best of hands. He would be, but for the fact that he's a horse out of training, he's probably a little quirky, and however a dressage yard conducts its daily life, both he, and his knew yard, may be in for a surprise! I'm sure that he'll be safe, but were I in Smith's shoes, I wouldn't have behaved as he has. I'd have given greater thought to the horse, just as Nicholls may have.

Alec.

 

[KautoStar1]

Never said I was "clued up" about it all as you say, but some people on here are behaving as if they definately are & that they know what's best for the horse. The owner & trainer have had a spat and the owner has exercised his right to remove the horse. At least he has placed the horse with people who have the experience to deal with him properly and ensure his welfare is of top priority.

 

[cptrayes]

No, he's a hugely adored racehorse, who is a living legend.

That's the one in people's heads. The one who poos and wees in his own bed is a different creature altogether.

 

[justabob]

Ok............ Clive Smith is a bit of a ****, The Pipes can confirm. PN is volatile and has confirmed this on C4 racing. Kauto Star has gone to a perfect stable to see if he can do another fecking job. The bleddy end. Just to add to you all, would you really, really want him ??????

 

[PolarSkye]

You clearly have no comprehension of what this horse is.

He's a horse. He isn't dipped in gold, or capable of curing cancer. He's a horse. Yes, he's a very successful racehorse . . . but at the end of the day he is an equine with pretty basic needs . . . feed, water, appropriate bedding, exercise, love, kindness . . . just like EVERY OTHER equine on the planet. Yes, his racing record is truly remarkable. Yes, he's worth millions. Yes, he's special (as a racehorse). But he's still a HORSE.

P

 

[PolarSkye]

Quite!

Cloud cuckoo land . . . may I show you a brochure?

P

 

[Daffodil]

Kauto Star 1: At long last, someone is talking some common sense.

 

[Alec Swan]

He's a horse. He isn't dipped in gold, or capable of curing cancer. He's a horse. Yes, he's a very successful racehorse . . . but at the end of the day he is an equine with pretty basic needs . . . feed, water, appropriate bedding, exercise, love, kindness . . . just like EVERY OTHER equine on the planet. Yes, his racing record is truly remarkable. Yes, he's worth millions. Yes, he's special (as a racehorse). But he's still a HORSE.

P

Kauto Star is history. He isn't Sea The Stars, he isn't Frankel, he's a horse, and I doubt that we will see his like, for many years. Period .

Alec.

 

[Caledonia]

Cloud cuckoo land . . . may I show you a brochure?

P

A brochure for what?

 

[Caledonia]

Ok............ Clive Smith is a bit of a ****, The Pipes can confirm. PN is volatile and has confirmed this on C4 racing. Kauto Star has gone to a perfect stable to see if he can do another fecking job. The bleddy end. Just to add to you all, would you really, really want him ??????

Where did I say I wanted him?

I wanted the horse to stay in the environment he's know all his competitive life, with people who care about him. No idea why you all seem to think this is a BAD THING.

 

[cptrayes]

Where did I say I wanted him?

I wanted the horse to stay in the environment he's know all his competitive life, with people who care about him. No idea why you all seem to think this is a BAD THING.

I think I've told you before but I'll list it clearly. I think it is a bad thing because:

- he will not have regular turnout at Ditcheat, I have been informed that no horses do. When he is no longer a superfit athlete I believe that this will matter even more than it does now.

- he will become less valued the older he gets, and be subject to the normal turnover of the 50 staff in that racing yard (not the top few that appear in the brochure, they aren't mucking him out and grooming him). His continuity of care by people who think of him as the lower level staff do now cannot in any way be guaranteed. I would prefer to see him in a home looked after primarily by one person who he knows loves him.

- he will be the stable "hack" and I think that a Riding Club home will most likely offer him a far more stimulating retirement than that and opening supermarkets as a PR tool.

and as a fortuitous side effect:

- he can do immense good for other racehorses that are not lucky enough to have been so fast, and therefore so loved, by being seen out and about doing ordinary horse stuff, showing that ex racers make good riding horses.

 

[Alec Swan]

An incisive and perhaps a prophetically accurate post.

Alec.

 

[Louise12]

Once again, so many people missing the point. As the likes of Polar Express say, horses come and go, even beloved pets. I said at the time that I respect this opinion. However, people must also respect that we do not all agree with that. I have a completely different view where beloved pets are concerned. Kauto Star is extremely special to Ditcheat, and they offered him a home for life. It is far from incisive and prophetic to list out concerns in such a derogatory fashion. If a horse has never been special to you then that is absolutely fine, but for those of us that they have, then all we can say is that they remain special forever, not temporarily. You will just have to trust us on that until it happens to you. The whole point of the problem here is that Kauto Star had a home, and he should have remained there

 

[cptrayes]

If a horse has never been special to you then that is absolutely fine, but for those of us that they have, then all we can say is that they remain special forever, not temporarily.

He is special to the yard. Yes. He is special to the person who mucks him out/grooms him now, paid minimum wage to do hard work in hard weather. Who will be mucking him out and grooming him next year?

I am told, possibly incorrectly but I believe not, that the average time spent by a stable lad on one of his/her charges at Ditcheat is 15 minutes. If that is correct, how "special" is that?

If a horse has never been special to you then that is absolutely fine, but for those of us that they have, then all we can say is that they remain special forever, not temporarily. You will just have to trust us on that until it happens to you. The whole point of the problem here is that Kauto Star had a home, and he should have remained there

I don't agree with you and in fact your suggestion that none of us has horses that are special to us is laughable. All my horses are special to me and none of them has as little personal care as Kauto Star will have as a 12, 13, 15, 18, 22 ...... year old has-been. I wish for him what my horses have - turnout with other horses, variety in his life and attention focussed on him by one main carer who loves him for himself, not for trophies that he won them in the past.

 

[oldvic]

He is special to the yard. Yes. He is special to the person who mucks him out/grooms him now, paid minimum wage to do hard work in hard weather. Who will be mucking him out and grooming him next year?


How do you know what they are paid? Many yards pay more than the minimum wage (for stable staff which is more than the national minimum). When you have a horse of that calibre in the yard they are special to more than just the person who looks after them. Granted there may be a very small minority who don't feel it but some horses get into the hearts of many - look at the feeling that he has created amongst people who have never set eyes on him in the flesh let alone been part of his team.



I am told, possibly incorrectly but I believe not, that the average time spent by a stable lad on one of his/her charges at Ditcheat is 15 minutes. If that is correct, how "special" .

That would be the same in many busy competition yards where the system is often different - the horses are done by whoever is available rather than the same person every day. Also they are often mucked out while they are out. In a busy yard there is not the luxury of time to fiddle, you have to get the job done or you will be there all night. In racing the lads tend to split their time but spend longer on 1 or 2 horses a night in a rota depending on if they have "spares" due to people away from the yard racing.

 

[Starbucks]

I still can't believe peoples reaction to this!! But I guess it's nice that so many people care about the horse!

I totally disagree with what a lot of you are saying:

A) With the shock that he’s actually settling into normal life quite well: PN is a top trainer and I doubt he gets the results he does from just sending his horses up the gallops every day with random crap riders?? I would be surprised if he hasn’t been schooled and jumped over poles in a “normal” saddle fairly regularly, especially as he isn’t the most consistent jumper.
B) As amazing as he is, he doesn’t know that! Just because he’s a star it doesn’t mean that he’s going to be super sharp, super naughty or anything along those lines. In fact I would think the opposite. He’s an experienced horse and used to being out and about in exciting situations. Much more likely to settle more quickly into a competition career than a 5yo who gets sacked off because he was miles behind in his first bumper. I’m a Denman fan, but I think he is a prime example of a top horse who can do another job after racing.
C) I’m all about quality of life and my main worry with racing is not the Grand National, it isn’t that horse that get injured or killed, it’s the surplus that don’t make the grade and end up worthless. Surely if high profile horses like Denman and KS can prove themselves as being useful in other disciplines then that has to be a good thing?? Denman has made his point being a hunter, IMO if KS did well in a prelim test, or a BE90, that would be fantastic!
D) PN is a trainer, if he wants to keep horses for life then I’m sorry, but he’ll have to own them!! I doubt he is so concerned about the less talented horses in his yard..
E) Has anyone thought that KS might actually enjoy doing something different?? He obviously tries his heart out and I think it would be naive to think he couldn’t enjoy and do well at something else
F) Personally, I would have liked him to go hunting and have some fun, BUT I DON’T KNOW THE HORSE, he’s maybe too delicate, too sharp, or maybe just not sound enough but surely this is why the owner has put him in the safe hands of Yogi, who completely knows what he is on about.

I do not get the issue!!!

 

[Daffodil]

Exactly, Starbucks, perfectly put

 

[Echo Bravo]

But lets face it he's no world beater except in the NH field, he's not going to make a dressage/eventer and to be honest it's only the racing public that love him. I'd have love to see him stay where he was, but there you go. The person that says that the racehorses only have 15 mins each should hang their head in shame, as I've seen less time spent on young stock at a welsh stud, believe me.

 

[PucciNPoni]

What an utterly bizarre thread. I can't believe how many emotive posts there are villifying dressage and the notion that an ex-race-horse (no matter how famous) shouldn't go on to do another career.

Those of you who are so weirdly opposed, do you ever stop to think that this is a really good thing for racehorses in general, and the future of those who retire from racing because such a public one goes on to do something else?

Dressage horses aern't all doomed to just do endless circles in rollkur and kept stabled 24/7 . THere are plenty who go hacking, hunting, show jumping, galloping and living out. Go on to the BD forums and you'll see plenty of this type of lifestyle discussed. Lets face it KS isn't going to be a GP horse most likely - but he'll hopefull get out there and show the world that ex-race horses can and do go on to do other things and dressage is perhaps what he might be most suited to.

Give it up you lot.

 

[Caledonia]

What an utterly bizarre thread. I can't believe how many emotive posts there are villifying dressage and the notion that an ex-race-horse (no matter how famous) shouldn't go on to do another career.

Those of you who are so weirdly opposed, do you ever stop to think that this is a really good thing for racehorses in general, and the future of those who retire from racing because such a public one goes on to do something else?

Dressage horses aern't all doomed to just do endless circles in rollkur and kept stabled 24/7 . THere are plenty who go hacking, hunting, show jumping, galloping and living out. Go on to the BD forums and you'll see plenty of this type of lifestyle discussed. Lets face it KS isn't going to be a GP horse most likely - but he'll hopefull get out there and show the world that ex-race horses can and do go on to do other things and dressage is perhaps what he might be most suited to.

Give it up you lot.

So because we follow racing, we supposedly know nothing about dressage? How very patronising (and hugely incorrect) of you.

This is simply about respect for the horse, nothing more.

He doesn't need to be an ambassador for ex-racers (by these I mean horses entering the general horse population that have no future in racing because they are gelded, or too slow to be used as broodmares, not those that go onto the paddocks or the PTP field).

Anyone with half a clue about horses (ie decent level comp rider) knows perfectly well that plenty horses off the track can become good sports horses. It's also known that some can become riding horses for the average leisure rider and some can't.

What is more likely to happen is that more inexperienced riders will want to copy the idea, and end up in a mess with an unhappy horse. There's enough of them out there already, without adding to that.

 

[PucciNPoni]

So because we follow racing, we supposedly know nothing about dressage? How very patronising (and hugely incorrect) of you.

This is simply about respect for the horse, nothing more.

He doesn't need to be an ambassador for ex-racers (by these I mean horses entering the general horse population that have no future in racing because they are gelded, or too slow to be used as broodmares, not those that go onto the paddocks or the PTP field).

Anyone with half a clue about horses (ie decent level comp rider) knows perfectly well that plenty horses off the track can become good sports horses. It's also known that some can become riding horses for the average leisure rider and some can't.

What is more likely to happen is that more inexperienced riders will want to copy the idea, and end up in a mess with an unhappy horse. There's enough of them out there already, without adding to that.

I didn't say or assume race fans know nothing of dressage... however there were some comments on this thread that blatantly said that it would be soul destroying for a horse to end up forevermore just doing endless circles.

I agree that there will be some numpties that shouldn't have an ex-race horse - many in fact they probably shouldn't have a horse full stop. But I still think that any ambassador for the versatility of ex-race horses leading full lives outside of racing is a good thing.

 

[Caledonia]

But I still think that any ambassador for the versatility of ex-race horses leading full lives outside of racing is a good thing.

All this sorry tale has shown is that a lot of people believe that a horse is nothing but a commodity for an owner to do as he pleases with.

You'd wonder what a horse has to do to secure a safe retirement from racing and prevent being moved around if the likes of Kauto can't.

 

[PucciNPoni]

All this sorry tale has shown is that a lot of people believe that a horse is nothing but a commodity for an owner to do as he pleases with.

You'd wonder what a horse has to do to secure a safe retirement from racing and prevent being moved around if the likes of Kauto can't.

Sadly, that goes for any horse, no matter how famous or what discipline s/he is in. There are similar debates about Totillas, Valegro's potential sale, and probably OTHER horses that I just don't know much about. But I think what irks me about this thread is that the notion that going off to do a second career for a fit, healthy horse of a good age to relearn is a BAD thing - particularly if it's going in to dressage!

 

[cptrayes]

All this sorry tale has shown is that a lot of people believe that a horse is nothing but a commodity for an owner to do as he pleases with.

I find this comment quite amazing.

Caledonia you were obviously not unhappy the the owner chose to put the horse into the most life-threatening career possible for a horse.

That's OK, but retiring him to do Riding Club stuff isn't?

Beats me

As far as I can see, he was far more of a commodity as a racehorse than he ever will be now he is retired and away from his training yard.

 

[Caledonia]

Sadly, that goes for any horse, no matter how famous or what discipline s/he is in. There are similar debates about Totillas, Valegro's potential sale, and probably OTHER horses that I just don't know much about. But I think what irks me about this thread is that the notion that going off to do a second career for a fit, healthy horse of a good age to relearn is a BAD thing - particularly if it's going in to dressage!

Totilas and Valegro are not the same, they're not retiring, they have/are changing rider and continuing in their particular discipline because the owners have sold them.

For this horse to do any more than poddle along at basic dressage levels will involve a lot of work to change his muscles so that it is comfortable and easy for him. He has had two monumental falls - there is latent damage that has probably been a governing factor in why they have called it a day with him.

Runners are not gymnasts. It's unfair to the horse when he has given so much to expect him to give more. Don't forget he's been in training since he was a 2yo - he's had a very long and hard career.

 

[cptrayes]

look at the feeling that he has created amongst people who have never set eyes on him in the flesh let alone been part of his team.

I am looking at that. It's a fantasy. Very much like people dreaming about their favourite pop stars. It would fade in a moment given the reality of shovelling ton of muck out of his box every year. In five years time, hopefully as a fit and healthy 17 year old, he would just be an old nag in the box over there where he's always been.

That would be the same in many busy competition yards where the system is often different - the horses are done by whoever is available rather than the same person every day.

I think you would struggle to find a competition yard in this country that has more than a small fraction of the 120 stabled horses at Ditcheat, and consequently the number of staff who may handle the horse. To give you an example of someone at the top of the tree, Tim Stockdale had less than twenty when I visited his yard.

Also they are often mucked out while they are out. In a busy yard there is not the luxury of time to fiddle, you have to get the job done or you will be there all night.

Quite. I would like him to go somewhere to someone who does have time to fiddle.

In racing the lads tend to split their time but spend longer on 1 or 2 horses a night in a rota depending on if they have "spares" due to people away from the yard racing.

Exactly. He might be handled by any number of people, not all of whom would give a damn that he was a has-been superstar, particularly as time goes on.


...

 

[Daffodil]

I'm afraid that hatred (and there's no other word for it) of Clive Smith has now seeped into the blood stream of so many of you that no amount of balanced and logical argument in favour his decision will make a jot of difference to you. It's now just argument for the sake of it.

From being hailed as a hero when he retired KS he has now become the villain of the piece. Why? Because he wants his horse to retire from racing but still lead a useful and mind-occupying life where he will be kept fit and happy (which I don't doubt for a moment he will be), and to do this, he has sent him for schooling to an experienced and established event rider under the guidance of Yogi Briesner, who, don't forget, was himself hailed as the architect of much of our Olympic success this year, and has also worked extensively with racehorses. KS could not be in better hands and I for one, applaud Clive Smith. He deserves much better than the villification he is receiving here.

 

[oldvic]

I am looking at that. It's a fantasy. Very much like people dreaming about their favourite pop stars. It would fade in a moment given the reality of shovelling ton of muck out of his box every year. In five years time, hopefully as a fit and healthy 17 year old, he would just be an old nag in the box over there where he's always been.

__________________

You have no idea what these old horses mean to a yard. They are treated like kings. Anyone who looks after them feels a huge amount of pride and honour and they stay revered throughout their retirement. "In the box where he's always been" is the phrase that is really what this is all about. That is where he considers as home. That is his comfort zone. It is not that he can't do a few walk trot tests but he does require a very good rider who is likely to be more ambitious than he is. He deserves to stay with what he knows and is comfortable with.

_____________________

I think you would struggle to find a competition yard in this country that has more than a small fraction of the 120 stabled horses at Ditcheat, and consequently the number of staff who may handle the horse. To give you an example of someone at the top of the tree, Tim Stockdale had less than twenty when I visited his yard.

________________________


In a competition yard there are less horses than at Paul Nicholls but in racing they are looked after by the same person every day unless that person is away. In a competition yard they are done by whoever is available.

_______________________


Quite. I would like him to go somewhere to someone who does have time to fiddle.

________________________


Someone who has time to fiddle will only have one or two horses. That would be a real culture shock for him. Some horses get irritated by people fiddling about with them.

_________________________


Exactly. He might be handled by any number of people, not all of whom would give a damn that he was a has-been superstar, particularly as time goes on.


_________________________


With a horse like that, it is most likely that whoever did him as a spare would be chosen carefully as someone who is aware of his status and would feel the pride.

 

[PucciNPoni]

Totilas and Valegro are not the same, they're not retiring, they have/are changing rider and continuing in their particular discipline because the owners have sold them.

For this horse to do any more than poddle along at basic dressage levels will involve a lot of work to change his muscles so that it is comfortable and easy for him. He has had two monumental falls - there is latent damage that has probably been a governing factor in why they have called it a day with him.

Runners are not gymnasts. It's unfair to the horse when he has given so much to expect him to give more. Don't forget he's been in training since he was a 2yo - he's had a very long and hard career.

What - and you think that this horse will somehow know the difference? Not all horses are born to be dressage horses, and many do undergo career changes even at later stages in life. Yes it can take retraining of the mind and muscles, but isn't that better than to just rot away in a field and stable? Do you think that horse wakes up and says to himself "I'm a racing hero, I shouldn't be demeaned by doing Prelim dressage?" Get real.

It's far better that a horse be useful and kept doing something than to waste away. He might be happy stuck in a field. But I know for a fact mine wouldn't. Some horses crave a bit of attention and getting that attention from a single someone who loves him or several adoring fans...so long as their fed and attended to -- that's usually what they want and need.

I think it's simply that YOU don't want to have your racing hero be demeaned to a life of lowly dressge. Somehow that takes the polish of your idol.