Lame... PLEASE look (pics inc) farrier issue?

Op, I'll leave the advice to those with more expertise of remedial work. But to give you some hope, my mare has big flat feet, prone to flares & spreading if not kept on top off. Being a good doer with excess energy, her diet has always been low in sugar, before I knew about the relevance to feet. So by chance a barefoot diet already, she has just enough concavaty for her sole not to touch the floor. However if I put up a pic, its so slight it would look flat. She was shod from starting work, cos that's what everyone did 20 yrs ago. 5yrs ago my farrier recommended leaving her barefoot, which required little in the way of transistion. But, I've been lucky her whole life with farriers. The amount of times I was told by other farriers, vets, experienced people her toe needed trimming back when shod, feet to wide etc, do this that the other to reshape her feet. Luckily I had a farrier who knew his job, & left well alone, which in time educated me to her needs. So when I moved areas, met new farriers, vets etc, I could stand my ground & say no, this is what she needs, not textbook pretty hooves & crippling. I realise your boy needs more work than I put in. But, if I hadn't been lucky in her coincidental good diet & initial farrier, her hooves would no doubt be the same. And if she can still march across rocks at 23, there's no reason your boy can't too. Good luck.
 
L&B said:
Thankyou for all of your replies...
I have awoken after probably 3hours of sleep & hours and hours of crying yesterday with a more positive attitude.
My lad's temperament is just too good to throw away & give up hope on because of some lameness in his feet. I stayed up til 3am last night cramming myself full of information - it could be so much worse - his pedal bone hasn't rotated or anything of the kind, it's just low, that's all: he's JUST flat footed & being clever about farriery/trimming and diet as far as I can see will fix this.
He's four years old and has never put a foot wrong. He looks after me both ridden and in the field like a little soldier... I'm not about to let that go. We'll get there. I don't give a sh*** if it takes a year.
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I am watching a horse with 'genetically flat' soles who went barefoot a few months ago in desperation.

He has been shod since 4 and is now 10.

His owner floated the idea of barefoot with a trimmer a few years ago - but the trimmer (correctly) recommended to keep him in shoes "for now" as the soles were so thin and flat. He recommended some dietary changes and the horse appeared better - so the owner went on as normal and thought no more about the hooves.

But the lameness kept coming back.

So, after some other dietary tinkerings, the shoes came off a few months ago. The horse was unhappy for a couple of weeks (I have not been involved in this process ;)) but has gone from strength to strength - his soles are thickening up :)

While there is still blood supply, there is ALWAYS the potential to turn around the sickest hooves.

If I can be any help - let me know :).

http://www.hoofrehab.com/jessica.htm
 
L&B said:
What has been said is: there is no sign of lammi in my boy, he has VERY flat feet, even by TB standards. The vet said his pedal bone was practically touching flat to his sole... And typically, he has very thin sole.
Now, this is the part I'm not happy with: she says he may never come right, she also says IF he does come right I may be looking at a horse who will be on/off lame for the rest of his life, she doubts he will ever be more than a 'fun' horse, and he will without a doubt require remedial farriery...

However, after speaking to my new farrier, his seller (retraining co), and ALSO his old jockey/trainer my thoughts are these: he was sound whilst he was racing else he would have had a bullet - simples, he was sound after coming off of the track & being with his seller for six months (that's 3-4 sets of shoes/trimming worth & 5days work per week), and he was sound with me for 4weeks.
The second he went lame was when he was trimmed and shod at my place, by the yard farrier. Coincidence?

I cannot understand how with patience and correct management & remedial farriery he wouldn't come sound again??? He's been sound before with a 'flat' pedal bone, and if there's been no lammi or rotation, then how can this be affecting him now without it being related to the farrier job? BAFFLES ME!
What I *NOW* think has happened is; he has shockingly flat feet (that's just him), the farrier has been un-sympathetic, brutal & has done a rush job: trimming too much toe back & leaving him on his heels, putting pressure on that pedal bone. He's ended up sore & possibly bruised as a result. BAM!
Nothing can conclude until he's comfy in remedial shoes and grows some hoof back! Thoughts?
I am following a strict diet now also, xx
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I had one the same, feet so flat that in the end we eneded up with soft tissue damage. I have taken her shoes off and followed a barefoot regime and guess what, her feet are no longer flat, she has heels and her feet are at a completely different angle. She has gone off to have a foal as was my original plan for her. I had the talk of retirement or being PTS, now I get to have the conversation on how I can't wait to get her back into work after her foal next year.

TB's don't need to have 'typical' feet, I have 3 and all have had their feet transformed by removing shoes.

I think to say he was 'sound' before is a bit misleading... his issues havn't came on overnight, they came on because the farrier changed something, the issues were always there. One persons idea of a sound horse is different to another. Shoes can hide a multitude of issues, be thankful you have found out his issues and now have the chance to correct them.

Good luck with him whichever way you go about helping him - he is lucky to have someone who cares this much...! :)
 
I'm coming in right at the end of this, and I should be somewhere else. Two things strike me:
1. From the photo, your horse appears to have abnormally long pasterns - never a good thing.
2. Recent experience. My ex-chaser livery had to be on box rest for 3 months. When walked out in hand after ailment was cured he was a tad pottery.When ridden he was occasionally OK in walk, and def. lame in trot. Both the vet and the farrier said 'muscle wastage', and I think they've been proved right. He then went on to a very careful regime of walk in hand, then 10 minutes ridden on flat, three weeks on he's on 20 minutes ridden in walk up and back down the nearest hill. He's now totally sound. We had immediately put the problem down to the fact that he had been re-shod after his confinement and, I'm afraid, had blamed it on the farrier (behind his back). We've now eaten our words...... Could it be the same for your horse, as from your post it sounds as though he'd been out of work for a bit, or in very light work?
 
No real advice but just wanted ti say do not give up hope, there is always a way forward and it needn't be the same for all.

I am no barefoot evangelist but do think that you need to be flexible and adapt to what suits each horse, rider, and the job they wish to do together.

I have a TB that raced until he was 10. He then had a very quiet yr, some R&R and light schooling. I started him in endurance in June 2009 and he was fine that summer. He continued in light work through the winter and competed throughout spring and summer 2010. However he was shoeing intermittent lameness from about August and my vets asked their preferred Farrier to take him on. The new Farrier was very certain that all his problems were foot related, very flat feet, thin soles and hideously under run heels.

He didn't think the feet were healthy enough to continue nailing in to so we tried Imprint Sports. Unfortunately given the shape of the feet and our ground conditions we just couldn't keep them on. My Farrier advised that we take the shoes of completely, this would allow him to really work on getting his heels corrected and his feet to recover. However we also knee that this horse would never stand up to the work that I needed him to do barefoot (no debate on 'everyto horse can go barefoot in all work' here please!).

So we came upon a plan to suit all parties. The horse was to have his shoes off until February (it was now September), come the spring, when I needed to up the work we would look a putting shoes back on.

Unsurprisingly he was dreadfully sore, despite being turned out in hoof boots. However over those 5 months his feet improved massively and he actually grew foot, and indeed heels for the first time since I'd had him.

In the spring the shoes went on but with advice from the Farrier that his time in them may cause some of the problems to restart and may be limited.

In 2011 we kept shoes on from february until september and unlike previously his feet were now healthy enough that they didn't keep falling off. Once the competition season finished the shoes came off again and he had the winter off. This time he coped without the boots.

In 2012 we did the same, shoes back on in February to allow us to compete and they came off again in September. This winter, having had a quieter season, the horse is staying in light work through the winter. His bare feet are not up to lots of road work but we are happily hacking farm tracks and schooling.


Oops, that turned out really long! Really I just wanted to share that it doesn't have to be bare or shod and with the right Farrier and a little flexibility it is possible to come to a solution that is workable x
 
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE look at his diet - it is so full of sugar and starch at the moment it really is no wonder he has such sore and inflamed feet. I have seen feet twice as flat as those come good so PLEASE don't give up on him. Try barefoot. Get him some boots - Don't whatever you do let anyone bang nails in those poor sore feet. It isn't going to be a quick or easy journey but it will be worth it in the end.

Start by keeping him in on a deep bed. any short time turnout needs to be on a soft surface - arena ideally. then build him up as he becomes more comfortable.

Diet wise I'd put him on fast fibre and micronised linseed for starters. Then look at a good hoof supplement like pro hoof by progressive earth.

You can make flat feet more upright (and thus correct the structures within them) but only with the correct diet, trimming and exercise.

How vets can get away with saying 'it's only bruising' these days is beyond me...
 
CBFan said:
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE look at his diet - it is so full of sugar and starch at the moment it really is no wonder he has such sore and inflamed feet. I have seen feet twice as flat as those come good so PLEASE don't give up on him. Try barefoot. Get him some boots - Don't whatever you do let anyone bang nails in those poor sore feet. It isn't going to be a quick or easy journey but it will be worth it in the end.

Start by keeping him in on a deep bed. any short time turnout needs to be on a soft surface - arena ideally. then build him up as he becomes more comfortable.
Diet wise I'd put him on fast fibre and micronised linseed for starters. Then look at a good hoof supplement like pro hoof by progressive earth.

You can make flat feet more upright (and thus correct the structures within them) but only with the correct diet, trimming and exercise.

How vets can get away with saying 'it's only bruising' these days is beyond me...
Click to expand...

The bit in blue is exactly what the vet has recommended for my mare with flat feet and thin bruised soles.

Mine had been sound in shoes for a couple of years before becoming uncomfortable.

I have bought boots and I'm changing her diet to try and help.

She is switching to speedibeet (unmolassed) pro hoof, micronised linseed and salt. We are tailing off her pure condition with a view to using the linseed to keep weight on instead but may need to use something like a chaff to get her to eat up.

I bought 12lbs EPS pads and cavallo simple boots. The boots are easy to put on, stay on and haven't rubbed (despite her being the type that gets rubbed easily). She is really comfortable in the boots, striding out on all surfaces in hand. I'm not riding her yet, and she isn't 100% comfortable turned out bare yet but the boots give her the comfort and support she needs to move and exercise and the deep bed does the same when she is in.

If your horse is as bad as the vet says surely it is worth giving him a try in boots. They will protect and cushion his sole better than shoes and won't involve nailing into his sore feet. My vet won't hear of nails going in for ages, but has suggested glue on shoes. I'm happy with the boots for now though and they work out far cheaper. Mine were £80 per pair including delivery and a set of gel pads. The EPS pads (thicker than the gel pads) were about £10. Boots last for a year or more depending upon how heavily you use them so although they cost more than a set of shoes you are quickly on the winning side :)
 
I would be using boots and pads - not remedial farriery - this often causes more problems than it fixes and also means nailing into those poor bruised feet which will probably cause a flare up of pain and lameness.

Please get his feet measured and then call the Saddlery Shop for advice on which make of boot will fit him best.

What is the 'strict diet' ?
 
L&B said:
Thankyou for all of your replies...
I have awoken after probably 3hours of sleep & hours and hours of crying yesterday with a more positive attitude.
My lad's temperament is just too good to throw away & give up hope on because of some lameness in his feet. I stayed up til 3am last night cramming myself full of information - it could be so much worse - his pedal bone hasn't rotated or anything of the kind, it's just low, that's all: he's JUST flat footed & being clever about farriery/trimming and diet as far as I can see will fix this.
He's four years old and has never put a foot wrong. He looks after me both ridden and in the field like a little soldier... I'm not about to let that go. We'll get there. I don't give a sh*** if it takes a year.
Click to expand...

Your story is a more serious version of mine.
I took his shoes off in April he is now walking on Tarmac and working well On grass and in the school and jumping and landing freely and happily his feet will still improve he has not got a whole new foot .
The diet is key mines horn quality growing has improved since I changed him to farriers formula so thats helped mine it was already better but it looking really good now at tthe top I can't wait to get it to the bottom and see how much thicker his wall are going to be.
Boots and pads are a god send for these type of horses you seem to have a good vet and farrier so you are in good shape to give him every chance.
 
My TB had feet like you describe, flat paper thin soles that you could flex with your thumb etc etc....

Shoes came off and these are the latest photos I have ( I am sorry for the size of them)

542839_10151142261018499_359005726_n.jpg



46024_10151148175978499_558031876_n.jpg


you can even see some concavity in the second picture..... something I was told would never be achived with a TB

Address the diet, get some boots (I got the cavello simples) and hunker down for the long haul...... it is worth it honest, as my TB is sounder than the natives on my yard over every surface you can think of
 
I am overwhelmed at the amount of replies I have had trying to spread the hope & let me know I'm not alone in all of this... Being told in not-so-many words that your horse MAY be good for nothing but a tin, isn't nice when I adore him so much!!!

I've seen the Xrays now, which show that my boys feet are EXTREMELY flat & he has INCREDIBLY thin soles... I will add a picture shortly.

For me it seems to be a little tricky atm, idk if that's down to the type of person I am, or what I'm actually being told, but both the vet & the farrier are saying it would be to my boys deterement to try going barefoot just now even with boots & pads (even though I've expressed I'd like that as an option), because his feet are JUST that FLAT they-say that boots just wouldn't give him the support he needs that shoes can.

I'm kind of stuck in a rock & a hard place as to go against vet & farrier advice is a hard thing to do & leaves me feeling very vulnerable. Also my insurance doesn't particularly recognise barefoot trimming as a way forward unless the vet suggests it, in which case I really would be left to fend for myself.
I was told to take him out of shoes would be cruel at this point; until he has grown some heel back and thickened his soles up (where the last farrier butchered him). What do you all think?

You will be pleased to know I have changed his diet, he was on haylage and one hard feed per day of: sugarbeet, grazeon & conditioning cubes.

He is now on haylage and one (smaller) hard feed per day of: speedibeet & high fibre cubes. He is also on Topspec's Healthy Hoof Supplement/Balancer and has a mineral lick as well as a salt lick on offer in his stable.

So I'm guessing it is a waiting game, do we think?
Both the vet & farrier want to leave the shoes he has on for at least 4weeks (and to be honest, so do I, as he's had two pairs on & then pulled in the last four weeks it's just going to cause more stress to his feet) -- and then I guess BIG decisions are to be made as to where to go from here!

His Xray:
b8jor6.jpg
 
Ok... first things first. Don't feel that you are alone. There are plenty of people on here and other forums who can offer you support. I personally would find youself a barefoot trimmer who can at least come out and offer you some advice. They may well agree with your farrier and your vet but they may also think otherwise. You have to go with your gut instinct. One thing I would question is how do they expect the horse to grow more heel and thicken his sole in shoes, when neither will be in contact with the ground?? On that basis alone I'd be tempted to go it alone...

I know I am so pleased I changed from a farrier to a BF Trimmer... my boys feet have changed so much - for the better. and I was chatting to a friend yesterday who took her TB with 'typical TB feet' BF a few months ago and she admitted that she was gobsmacked at the change in the angle of growth and the qualit of horn growing down... he's still in hoof boots much of the time but she is slowly pushing him a bit more on various surfaces without them on and he is improving all the time. I can't wait til he has a whole new hoof... he's almost half way there and it's only been just over 3 months... baring in mind that before that he wasn't growing enough hoof to put shoes on him, that really does say something don't you think??!

As for the diet - sounds like a vast improvement although watch the hi-fibre cubes as they do contain mollasses but you might be ok.. I would reccomend you get hold of some micronised linseed and feed a good mug a day. you may also find the addition of some magnesium beneficial. I'm not sure what quantities the TS supp has in it but the ready made supps often fall short... It is quite hard to OD on MG as excess is easily extreted in the urine...
 
Your horse has very severe reverse rotation of the pedal bone. I expect they will want to shoe him with wedges to raise his heels and try to correct this. However, it is often shoeing which is to blame for this condition in the first place. The tip of his pedal bone is extremely close to the hoof wall at the toe and so I expect that shoeing him will be extremely painful in itself. Personally, if you cannot get your vet on board with going barefoot, then I would ask if your horse can be shod with imprint shoes, which are glue on. They will support the frog and the sole and give immediate comfort to your horse. Most insurance companies will pay for these.
 
Wagtail can you elaborate on what that means please? Sorry, again, not trying to be ignorant, I just don't understand...

Is barefoot the solution? If so, why? Can bone conformation be corrected?
 
Id second the Topspec supp not being enough - forage plus or pro hoof would be much better options, and you get more minerals for your money, rather than a sneeze of mineral and lots of fillers.

I think Wagtail has hit on a nice happy medium, maybe try one or two cycles or imprints and see how he's doing then - Id still get a barefoot trimmer out to consult with on the x rays and see what they think. I do not think there is anyway I could countenance putting nails in those feet atm.
 
L&B said:
Wagtail can you elaborate on what that means please? Sorry, again, not trying to be ignorant, I just don't understand...

Is barefoot the solution? If so, why? Can bone conformation be corrected?
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Yes, it can be corrected. If you look at the marker on the front of the hoof, the pedal bone should be parallel with this. However, your horse's pedal bones are rotated upwards. Imagine walking on just your heels with your toes in the air. That is how your horse is effectively walking. The bottom of his pedal bone should be slightly above the parallel to the ground. Your horse's is lower at the back. Traditional remedial farriery will try to correct this by raising his heels and so correcting the angle of the pedal bone. IME this very rarely works and can have a detrimental effect on the hoof structures. I would not want to be putting nails through those hoof walls either. Imprint shoes will offer lots of support and comfort without compromising the structure of the hoof.
 
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Wagtail said:
Yes, it can be corrected. If you look at the marker on the front of the hoof, the pedal bone should be parallel with this. However, your horse's pedal bones are rotated upwards. Imagine walking on just your heels with your toes in the air. That is how your horse is effectively walking. The bottom of his pedal bone should be slightly above the parallel to the ground. Your horse's is lower at the back. Traditional remedial farriery will try to correct this by raising his heels and so correcting the angle of the pedal bone. IME this very rarely works and can have a detrimental effect on the hoof structures. I would not want to be putting nails through those hoof walls either. Imprint shoes will offer lots of support and comfort without compromising the structure of the hoof.
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Thankyou for explaining!!
I am just looking into imprint shoes now... I like them!!! I can see how they work!! I also agree with keep on banging nails into his hoove :( I don't want that either, I'm leaving him as he is for four weeks, purely because I don't want to keep pulling shoes on & off, on & off for the sake...
If I were to have imprints for say, a good few months, is there any reason why he couldn't transfer from these to boots, to barefoot?? x
 
L&B said:
Thankyou for explaining!!
I am just looking into imprint shoes now... I like them!!! I can see how they work!! I also agree with keep on banging nails into his hoove :( I don't want that either, I'm leaving him as he is for four weeks, purely because I don't want to keep pulling shoes on & off, on & off for the sake...
If I were to have imprints for say, a good few months, is there any reason why he couldn't transfer from these to boots, to barefoot?? x
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No, not at all. They will give him just the right support until the pain settles down and then he could easily go barefoot. I would buy him some boots and get the thick styrofoam pads. You can leave them on pretty much 24/7 to begin with and then start leaving them off for a few hours to give his feet chance to toughen up. With correct trimming, he will hopefully come right for you.
 
Agree. Wagtail has given you some great advice. I think they key is, while you have decided not to touch his feet for the next 4 weeks, try to get a BF trimmer out to assess him and give you an idea of a rehab programme. It may well be that they can help fight your corner with the vet / farrier too.

keep going with the feeding regime. Use up that tub of TS Hoof supp and then replace with something more suitable. and try and gradually introduce some exercise (even just walking a couple of lengths of the yard to begin with) building up as you feel he can cope...
 
L&B said:
I am overwhelmed at the amount of replies I have had trying to spread the hope & let me know I'm not alone in all of this... Being told in not-so-many words that your horse MAY be good for nothing but a tin, isn't nice when I adore him so much!!!

I've seen the Xrays now, which show that my boys feet are EXTREMELY flat & he has INCREDIBLY thin soles... I will add a picture shortly.

For me it seems to be a little tricky atm, idk if that's down to the type of person I am, or what I'm actually being told, but both the vet & the farrier are saying it would be to my boys deterement to try going barefoot just now even with boots & pads (even though I've expressed I'd like that as an option), because his feet are JUST that FLAT they-say that boots just wouldn't give him the support he needs that shoes can.

I'm kind of stuck in a rock & a hard place as to go against vet & farrier advice is a hard thing to do & leaves me feeling very vulnerable. Also my insurance doesn't particularly recognise barefoot trimming as a way forward unless the vet suggests it, in which case I really would be left to fend for myself.
I was told to take him out of shoes would be cruel at this point; until he has grown some heel back and thickened his soles up (where the last farrier butchered him). What do you all think?
Click to expand...

I'm very lucky that my vet believes the only way to correct flat, thin soled feet is to remove shoes. He told me with my girl that shoes and wedges can 'buy time' but that to truly cure the issue shoes need to be removed, although his personal preference was to pull shoes and turn away for a period of rest, while I kept my mare moving which he did support and was as pleased as me to see her start to come right.

All 3 of mine had flat, thin soles feet (although only one was xrayed so I'm not sure how they would have compared to yours) and all 3 have been turned around. It takes time and attention to detail but it can be done. IMO Wagtails advice is superb, sort the diet, look into Imprints and go from there.
 
TigerTail said:
Is he bare at the minute? If he's already bare id buy the boots and pads but thats just me :o
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No he's in shoes (shown in Xray) which is what I am going to keep him in for the next, at least 3weeks, just to give his feet time whilst I get these imprints sorted... :) THEN I'll allow them to be pulled & imprints put on. But not until I know everything is prepared :)
 
my only addition to this thread is that from your picture he looks to have very long and upright pasterns, which may be a contributory factor in his lameness. ;)

Hope you can work out a way of making him more comfortable. I can vouch for a combination of speedibeet, fast fibre and pro balance + minerals- as changing my youngster to the a fore mentioned has made a huge imporvement in her feet- they were incredibly flat and soft, but are now much more concave, hard as nails and she is no longer footy on hard surfaces.

good luck! ;) xxx
 
whisp&willow said:
my only addition to this thread is that from your picture he looks to have very long and upright pasterns, which may be a contributory factor in his lameness. ;)

Hope you can work out a way of making him more comfortable. I can vouch for a combination of speedibeet, fast fibre and pro balance + minerals- as changing my youngster to the a fore mentioned has made a huge imporvement in her feet- they were incredibly flat and soft, but are now much more concave, hard as nails and she is no longer footy on hard surfaces.

good luck! ;) xxx
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This has been mentioned before and he does have long pasterns, I knew this when I bought him - he is a very thoroughbreddy thoroughbred :)
I asked my vets about it, as I would like to do a bit of jumping for fun (nothing huge) with him eventually and wanted to make sure it wouldn't be to his downfall & they seemed to think so long as he built up plenty of muscle he would be fine, they're not horrendously long, given his breed.
Thankyou for your well wishes! Nice to know I'm on the right lines with the speedibeet, hi fibre & supps :) x
 
L&B said:
No he's in shoes (shown in Xray) which is what I am going to keep him in for the next, at least 3weeks, just to give his feet time whilst I get these imprints sorted... :) THEN I'll allow them to be pulled & imprints put on. But not until I know everything is prepared :)
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I think that's a good plan.
 
L&B said:
No he's in shoes (shown in Xray) which is what I am going to keep him in for the next, at least 3weeks, just to give his feet time whilst I get these imprints sorted... :) THEN I'll allow them to be pulled & imprints put on. But not until I know everything is prepared :)
Click to expand...

Good plan - dont forget to get the pro hoof rather than the topspec supp too!

And keep us updated with pics :D
 
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