Laminitis with no improvement

[holeymoley]

In my eyes sinking can’t be reversed- rotation can’t really as such either, it’s just the trim that re-aligns things. I don’t have experience with sinking but could you not go back to pads to give the sole more support while gets a chance to thicken? If the hoof has been trimmed to re align with the pedal bone then it’s more support she needs now.

 

[tallyho!]

I too would be in exactly the same frame of mind. Nothing more to do except to ease pain and relieve this brave girl from her misery. God bless both of you for trying xx

 

[PSD]

This is exactly my thinking too holeymoley. I can’t see how it can be reversed at all now, they’re wanting the imprints on Tuesday when everything reopens and I feel like I should give it a go but then I also don’t see the point in spending £150 on something that simply won’t work in the long run. My farrier and vet are fantastic but I haven’t had a straight answer from them yet, I just want one of them to tell me what I should be doing and not be “trying this and it might help” type of thing. If this was me talking to a friend I know what I’d say but why is it so much harder when it’s your own?

 

[OldNag]

I am really sorry you have got to this point. I have been following your story.

Having lost 2 ponies to this - one of whom had imprints which we thought were going to do the trick - I have said to myself that if it went on this long I wouldn't put a pony through it again.

I really feel for you x

 

[ycbm]

I wouldn't carry on if she was mine PSD, sorry

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[Equi]

I think you’re waiting for them to tell you it’s time so that it eases the burden on you. I totally get that. But at the same time you have to be the one to step up to the line now and make the decision. That is a disturbing photo of her hoof to me. And again my worry is about her future life and what it will be like for her. Quality over quantity..

 

[ester]

Much as I do think imprints are great as you know she wouldn't have had the resection if she were mine. I don't think making the decision is ever easy though.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Domesticated horses are at a disadvantage compared to the wild zebra that they are related to. If zebras get laminitis or a similar problem, they don't get the chance to keep stopping for a lie down, or to hobble about feeling pain. They will be the next one to be taken by a hungry lion. Horses only very rarely die of 'natural causes' or spontaneously.

It as a horrible decision to make but for domesticated horses, the owner has to decide how much the horse can put up with, quality of life must surely take precedence over quantity.

I have had horses for about 50 years, mostly in multiples and they have a home for life with us, so I have made 'that' decision several times, it never gets any less heartbreaking but it does become easier to judge when the time is right. IME vets will let you go on treating any animal, not just horses, way past the time when it would be better to stop, unless something catastrophic happens.

 

[deepsoftheavy]

I expect the reason your vet and farrier wont give you a straight pts advisory is because they honestly dont know for sure how things will develop and, its possible that the vet feels the horse isnt in acute distress at this particular moment in time. I had the same experience...no one was prepared to push me into the decision. Its a truly horrible place to be...and I knew so little about the condition.

 

[meleeka]

I usually ask my vet “what would you do if it were yours”.

You’ve tried so hard for her, I think in your shoes I’d probably go for the imprints just as the final thing. I’m guessing £150 is a drop in the ocean to what you’ve already spent. If they don’t work I don’t think you’ll be any worse off then you have your cut off point when you’ll know that nothing else can be done. Your vet sounds pretty good so I doubt they’d be recommending them if they thought it was a pointless case. I’d trust my vets not to do that or they wouldn’t be my vets.

Obviously If you wake up and decide enough is enough them that’s ok too.

 

[southerncomfort]

Lots of excellent advice but I just wanted to add that if *you* have reached the end of the road and don't feel like you want to continue, that is just as valid when making the decision on whether to PTS or not.

Nursing a sick horse is absolutely exhausting and their is nothing wrong with saying 'I've had enough'.

You've been through so much with this mare and you've tried everything you possibly could. You know yourself that the long term outcome is unlikely to be a good one so no one would blame you one bit if you decided to make the call now.

 

[PSD]

Thank you all so much you really don’t know how much the support you give means to me.

I think you’re waiting for them to tell you it’s time so that it eases the burden on you. I totally get that. But at the same time you have to be the one to step up to the line now and make the decision. That is a disturbing photo of her hoof to me. And again my worry is about her future life and what it will be like for her. Quality over quantity..

this is exactly what I’m waiting for however neither of them can predict which way things are going to go. It makes it worse that she’s still got a bit of her sparkle left

 

[PSD]

I am really sorry you have got to this point. I have been following your story.

Having lost 2 ponies to this - one of whom had imprints which we thought were going to do the trick - I have said to myself that if it went on this long I wouldn't put a pony through it again.

I really feel for you x

thank you. I also don’t feel the imprints will work for her with how badly she’s sunk now. Can I ask how they didn’t do the trick? Was it just that your ponies were too far down the line for them to have an effect?

 

[misst]

I haven't posted before but followed your story. You have tried so hard but from bitter experience it is your decision. It is only you who can make the decision. I feel you have made it but cannot quite bring yourself to say it out loud.
Vets rarely give a yes/no answer. They are in a difficult position - one of my vets who I respected immensely was quite blunt and brutal and would say" these are expensive animals, breakable, fragile and costly to maintain. If you have come to the point where you feel you no longer can continue then the time has come to PTS not hand the problem on or wait and see." I found his honesty refreshing but other people thought he was hard and unfeeling. He wasn't - he was experienced and put horses first not people.
I kept a horse on box rest for months and it was another experienced vet who actually said to me this horse has a non recoverable injury you need to PTS. I was so shocked and devastated as had not understood the suffering I had put him through. I still had other people on the yard making "helpful" suggestions and encouraging me to keep trying. Since then I have made the decision a couple more times. It's never good or easy or even bearable at first - but it is not about me. Ask yourself the question why am I doing this. If it is because you want more time with her or because you hope she will improve (to what end? how much?) then that is for you not her. Horses do not know about tomorrow. Only today matters and if today is awful they don't have "hope for tomorrow" only the awfulness of now.
Only you know the answers but she has suffered a lot.
My sincere condolences for your predicament and for your pain.
Better a day too soon than a moment too late is my motto now - and I truly wish someone had been honest with me years ago - but no one wanted to be the one to do it and I was too blind to see so my horse suffered. I still feel guilty 17 years later.

 

[PSD]

I haven't posted before but followed your story. You have tried so hard but from bitter experience it is your decision. It is only you who can make the decision. I feel you have made it but cannot quite bring yourself to say it out loud.
Vets rarely give a yes/no answer. They are in a difficult position - one of my vets who I respected immensely was quite blunt and brutal and would say" these are expensive animals, breakable, fragile and costly to maintain. If you have come to the point where you feel you no longer can continue then the time has come to PTS not hand the problem on or wait and see." I found his honesty refreshing but other people thought he was hard and unfeeling. He wasn't - he was experienced and put horses first not people.
I kept a horse on box rest for months and it was another experienced vet who actually said to me this horse has a non recoverable injury you need to PTS. I was so shocked and devastated as had not understood the suffering I had put him through. I still had other people on the yard making "helpful" suggestions and encouraging me to keep trying. Since then I have made the decision a couple more times. It's never good or easy or even bearable at first - but it is not about me. Ask yourself the question why am I doing this. If it is because you want more time with her or because you hope she will improve (to what end? how much?) then that is for you not her. Horses do not know about tomorrow. Only today matters and if today is awful they don't have "hope for tomorrow" only the awfulness of now.
Only you know the answers but she has suffered a lot.
My sincere condolences for your predicament and for your pain.
Better a day too soon than a moment too late is my motto now - and I truly wish someone had been honest with me years ago - but no one wanted to be the one to do it and I was too blind to see so my horse suffered. I still feel guilty 17 years later.

thank you so much.

you are right, I know what is to be done but admitting it and going through with it is the part I’m struggling with. She is my heart horse and I always said no amount of money would stop be from fixing anything for her. However I’ve reached a dead end now, it’s not even a case of oh maybe if we do this then this will help. She has next to no sole left on her feet which to me means it’s only a matter of time before things get very nasty and I don’t want to be at that point I’d rather let her go before that and whilst she’s happy (ish). I’m going to have a good chat with my farrier on Tuesday face to face as he is brutally honest which most don’t like but I do and I appreciate it. My vet is amazing but on the flip side I do think a lot of vets think they have superpowers (don’t get me wrong some have made amazing recoveries from things such as this) however I just don’t think this is a pony that can be saved. She isn’t weight baring on the worst leg now (pics of her hoof/sole in previous comments) and as I say I know it’s only a matter of time before it gets to a bad point.

I’ve been told sinking cannot be reversed and the vet did say if the indentation on her coronet band gets bigger (it has see previous pics) then it’s basically game over as this cannot be stopped or effectively reversed whereas the pedal bone can be realigned (if that’s the right term) by corrective trimming but the mechanics of the foot will forever be compromised. I think I’m being selfish just because I want to keep her if I’m honest. I love the bones of her and I just want things to be back to normal but they never will be now. It’s hard because she’s still bright and alert but she’s suffering now and at the point where everything has been done and tried and she’s just not improving.

this is how she stands now. It baffles me, she’s happy to stand up and faff about but holds the leg up even though it’s padded up beyond belief and she is barefoot.

 

[Equi]

Is that the hoof with the abscess?

regardless I would not be happy leaving her until tuesday if that’s how she is standing. I’m sorry

 

[PSD]

Is that the hoof with the abscess?

Unfortunately there is no abscess. After 2 weeks of poulticing and the farrier digging around there was nothing to be found. The shadowing is likely to be a gas pocket/serum build up but yes this is that foot. The one I posted pictures of her soles

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I'm really sorry, she is standing like that because she is in pain if she puts that foot down. She uses the foot to get up and down because she has to and will be putting as little weight on it as possible to do so. I would give her as much pain relief as possible/necessary to keep her comfortable and let her go tomorrow, if she were mine. I know that it is difficult, not just because she is your horse but also because you have an emotional investment in the treatment too. I am afraid that you have been badly served by the professionals, especially the first vet but I do think that the new vet and farrier should have taken some responsibility for pointing out the likelihood, or not of successful treatment.

 

[PSD]

I'm really sorry, she is standing like that because she is in pain if she puts that foot down. She uses the foot to get up and down because she has to and will be putting as little weight on it as possible to do so. I would give her as much pain relief as possible/necessary to keep her comfortable and let her go tomorrow, if she were mine. I know that it is difficult, not just because she is your horse but also because you have an emotional investment in the treatment too. I am afraid that you have been badly served by the professionals, especially the first vet but I do think that the new vet and farrier should have taken some responsibility for pointing out the likelihood, or not of successful treatment.

I agree. Horses don’t rest front feet unless they’re in agony am I right? I understand the laminitis is painful but she isn’t actually rocking back like she was, she just holds this foot up now and it’s got so much padding on. This is the one with barely any sole left on. Now correct me if I’m wrong but if the farrier says there’s virtually no sole left, this can only mean it’s a matter of time before that bone penetrates isn’t it?

I could kick myself for not swapping vets sooner but it is what it is. Had it not taken them a month to x ray her we may not be in this position. I just don’t understand why she isn’t recovering, or is that just how it happens sometimes? I’ve never dealt with laminitis personally I’ve only ever known people with horses that have had it.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I agree. Horses don’t rest front feet unless they’re in agony am I right? I understand the laminitis is painful but she isn’t actually rocking back like she was, she just holds this foot up now and it’s got so much padding on. This is the one with barely any sole left on. Now correct me if I’m wrong but if the farrier says there’s virtually no sole left, this can only mean it’s a matter of time before that bone penetrates isn’t it?

I could kick myself for not swapping vets sooner but it is what it is. Had it not taken them a month to x ray her we may not be in this position. I just don’t understand why she isn’t recovering, or is that just how it happens sometimes? I’ve never dealt with laminitis personally I’ve only ever known people with horses that have had it.

I think we have been given a false sense of security, if that's the right term, about laminitis because some horses do recover and places like Rockley have successfully rehabbed some but tbh they are the minority, really - and probably their laminitis isn't 'that' bad. Horses are the most badly 'designed' animals - their digestive systems are very susceptible to going wrong and their feet are far too small for their size/bodyweight. There is a school of thought that laminitis is a symptom of digestive issues, which makes sense to me.

I don't think you should blame yourself for the first vet's failings, you followed his advice with no experience to tell you otherwise. My farrier always blamed the vet for the loss of my Shire but tbf, I think she probably had very early onset Cushings and there was no treatment available at that time - he could have given better advice though!

Remember that I can't see your horse in person and a few photos don't give the whole picture but please do have a serious conversation with your vet/farrier as soon as you can - and I would certainly give her as much pain relief as possible, she must be in agony on that foot.

 

[ycbm]

For info of anyone seeking laminitis rehab, Rockley don't rehab laminitis only navicular syndrome and foot balance issues.

Gawsworth Track Livery do though.

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[PSD]

I think we have been given a false sense of security, if that's the right term, about laminitis because some horses do recover and places like Rockley have successfully rehabbed some but tbh they are the minority, really - and probably their laminitis isn't 'that' bad. Horses are the most badly 'designed' animals - their digestive systems are very susceptible to going wrong and their feet are far too small for their size/bodyweight. There is a school of thought that laminitis is a symptom of digestive issues, which makes sense to me.

I don't think you should blame yourself for the first vet's failings, you followed his advice with no experience to tell you otherwise. My farrier always blamed the vet for the loss of my Shire but tbf, I think she probably had very early onset Cushings and there was no treatment available at that time - he could have given better advice though!

Remember that I can't see your horse in person and a few photos don't give the whole picture but please do have a serious conversation with your vet/farrier as soon as you can - and I would certainly give her as much pain relief as possible, she must be in agony on that foot.

The digestive issues is another thing I am faced with. She had grade 4 ulcers last summer and recovered well but I think this may have had something to do with the EMS/laminitis because before these I never had a single worry with her over anything. I’m 99.9% certain that the ulcers are back, she’s lost condition understandably and she’s very tucked in.

the thing I’m struggling with is having that conversation, where do I even start? Do I just outright say I think enough is enough? Do I just ask what their view is? I fear I won’t get the advice I’m desperately seeking if I don’t ask the right question

 

[PSD]

For info of anyone seeking laminitis rehab, Rockley don't rehab laminitis only navicular syndrome and foot balance issues.

Gawsworth Track Livery do though.

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I have spoke with Gawsworth recently funnily enough. However Tilly wouldn’t be fit to travel to them and I genuinely don’t think they could rehabilitate a pony with laminitis as bad as hers

 

[Pearlsasinger]

" I am wondering if enough is enough for her. What would you do if she were your horse?" I have asked that question several times of various vets over the years, sometimes substituting dog/cat for horse.

 

[ycbm]

Is that the hoof with the abscess?

regardless I would not be happy leaving her until tuesday if that’s how she is standing. I’m sorry

I am so sorry but from that picture and your previous set, I would bute her to the eyeballs tonight and have her PTS tomorrow.

As to how, you call the vet and tell them you are not prepared to see her in this much pain any longer and you want it done.

I'm so sorry.


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[AmyMay]

You simply tell the vet that you believe that it’s time to let her go. Or you call the hunt xx

 

[OldNag]

thank you. I also don’t feel the imprints will work for her with how badly she’s sunk now. Can I ask how they didn’t do the trick? Was it just that your ponies were too far down the line for them to have an effect?

With the one who had imprints- she had been on box rest with it for 4 weeks, possibly more. Her rotation had improved but it started getting worse again, and when she started with sinking too we decided she had been through enough.

 

[PSD]

Thank you I have never dealt with this before as my old boy was pts with the hunt last year however I don’t think they are operating anymore as they have closed the hunt group down.

I will have the conversation with my vet and farrier. I do think I’ve done everything I can now and this conversation keeps cropping up - it’s going round in circles when inevitably I know the answer

 

[PSD]

With the one who had imprints- she had been on box rest with it for 4 weeks, possibly more. Her rotation had improved but it started getting worse again, and when she started with sinking too we decided she had been through enough.

thank you for that.

we are almost at 4 months box rest with the rotation slightly improving however the sinking is getting worse and from what I’m told there is no coming back from that

 

[OldNag]

I am so sorry but from that picture and your previous set, I would bute her to the eyeballs tonight and have her PTS tomorrow.

As to how, you call the vet and tell them you are not prepared to see her in this much pain any longer and you want it done.

I'm so sorry.


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I absolutely agree with this. I don't think there is anything else you can do and I wouldn't want to wait any longer.

I am so sorry.