Learned Helplessness

Ample Prosecco

Ample Prosecco

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Be curious to know what people think of this blog.

https://greyhorsellc.wordpress.com/2018/11/09/learned-helplessness/

I am far from sure about what I think of it myself! My understanding of learned helplessness was of passivity, a horse who was evidently shut down, resigned, dull. Not one who gave every appearance of happy co-operation. But it may make sense with respect to Ginny: when we first got Ginny it was clear she was an unhappy horse. She was defensive/aggressive. She had poor teeth. She had a skin condition that probably made her feel miserable. She was girthy. But under saddle she was always perfect: forward, willing, ears pricked. That always puzzled me and I explained it just as her enjoying her work or being clear about what was expected of her when she was working and therefore feeling relaxed about it. But as she relaxed on the ground her behaviour under saddle deteriorated until she refused altogether and them the lameness appeared.

I'd be interested in people's perspectives as I am not sure what to think really. Can horses who give every appearance of being happy in their work really just be showing signs of learned helplessness? And if so how could you tell that the horse you think is content and willing really isn't?? I
 
Just seen that there is a follow up blog. Whether I agree with the first blog or not, I do like the ideas set out in the 2nd one!

https://greyhorsellc.wordpress.com/2018/11/21/an-alternative-to-learned-helpessness/

But it also does not sound like rocket science. Isn't this how most people ride and train? If not what are these 'learned helplessness based' ways of training and teaching a horse? It's fine to have the 'dos' of horse training but what are the 'do nots'? I assume Kathleen does not just mean the beat-em-up to make-em-work school of horsemanship? Or maybe that is more common than I am willing to believe?

I guess just off the top of my head, one difference is that I try as far as possible to ignore unwanted behaviour instead of correcting it. I see the horse offering the wrong thing as at least offering SOMETHING (trying to figure out what I want) and by not releasing then I am saying 'not that' and when they do get the right answer then they get a 'yes that' via the release. I don't want to suppress their willingness to offer behaviours, even if they are not getting it right to start with. Mark Rashid described that as focusing on what you DO want and riding for that not focusing on what you DON'T want and trying to stop that. And I do break things down very slowly so when I eventually sit on a horse it really is no big deal at all to the horse.

Anyway, thoughts welcome! Let's have a debate!!
 
Interesting article, thanks for sharing!
I am not sure about their "alternatives" though. I think a lot of the way we train using negative reinforcement is what leads to learned helplessness. We are still not TRULY giving the horse a choice, really, are we - because if it doesn't do what we want, we escalate the pressure. Sure, the horse can decide not to comply, but then it just gets more pressure until it gives in. That's why we end up changing to stronger bits or more intense training, or using spurs. I think that learned helplessness happens in horses much more than just those that have "dead eyes".
 
I had lessons on a newly purchased and pricey professionally-schooled cob, privately owned and only ridden by myself and the owners. He did exactly what you asked instantly without question, but there was something big missing. No spark of personality, no sense of mutual cooperation. He didn't seem unhappy or happy. Felt sorry for him.
 
Very interesting, thank you for sharing! I very much like the second article talking about the "progressive preparation" and "on the job training". I suppose reading this and reflecting, I have always been taught the LH method to train and ride any of my horses because I wanted a result (to jump x high or win a showing class) in a certain amount of time and my instructors needed to deliver, looking back I always felt like my old horse was "faking it" which now reading the article I guess is the LH coming through. I see a lot of people riding being taught the same thing too which I think does yield a quicker result but I wonder what impact this is having on the horse.

It is only with my new horse and new instructor and also more reading and research that I do that we are looking at this progressive training approach which is soooo much slower so I can see why people jump to just getting on with it (which is not right or wrong just personal choice). Like the author of the article, I enjoy learning everything about the horse and working together to improve so I get as much enjoyment out of walking down the lane for 10 minutes everyday in the dark come rain, wind or shine get to him used to to my headlamp so eventually we can hack late afternoons in Spring than I do preparing for a dressage test. I like to work to end goals and will put in a year's worth of work if that's what it takes because ultimately I do think that is a better way than just forcing them into submission. Ridden wise, this means after 7 months we are maybe not where we could be if I had sent him off to be professionally schooled but I like the fact that he makes choices based on what he has learned for himself or that he sees me as a suitable leader - for example, before all of the groundwork and things I had been doing he would nap to my instructor and follow her if she walked off, last night we halted and were having a chat and then walked off and he just cocked his ear back and moved his head to focus on me as if to say "are we still standing or should I go?" This could be a one off or maybe I am humanising it but it does feel like doing things slowly and one step at a time does seem to work better as I can really see him processing and making choices and I like to think its not because I am forcing him to.

Sorry for my mindless ramblings, I enjoy these types of articles and learning more about how we can understand horses and make their lives as comfortable as possible
 
Interesting articles.

I guess for any herd animal that is programmed to live cooperatively with other beings there is a capacity for learned helplessness, and there will some element of it as part of their behaviour. Most humans for example, exhibit some learned helplessness in daily life - they might follow rules that they don't agree with because they don't wish to risk suffering the consequences of not doing so for example. And I don't think having some elements of our behaviour being due to learned helplessness is detrimental to our overall contentment, but there is definitely a balance and also in certain situations any learned helplessness could be extremely detrimental (eg food consumption, sexual contact...)

And I think with horses that the same thing can probably be said. With my own horses I would not want them to trot down the road because they felt like they had no other option and had shut down, but I'm not so bothered about learned helplessness when it comes from refraining from kicking me in the head. Ultimately I would rather that it didn't occur to them to kick me in the first place, but if they learn not to through learned helplessness with regards to that particular activity then I'm ok with that.

I have certainly reschooled a couple of horses in the past who were in a state of severe learned helplessness when their unwitting owners bought them, and then over the course of about 6 months started napping badly. The owners struggled to fix it (because they weren't themselves the cause), and when I reschooled them I essentially ended up rebacking them and starting again, because actually they had never really been trained the first time around, they had just shut down and gone along with it.
 
emfen1305 said:
I suppose reading this and reflecting, I have always been taught the LH method to train and ride any of my horses
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What do you mean by the LH method?

As Morgan says - even the pressure release method is not really giving the horse a choice. The article says "as little as you can but as much as you have to". So you are insisting on compliance - just rewarding the horse with a release when it does comply. Don't all methods achieve that? We stop using the leg when the horse is moving off at the desired speed? We stop moving the horse round the field when it stops resisting being caught etc.

I think the Western trainers I have had lessons with use far more release - every few seconds to start with - whereas my dressage instructor might let Amber relax and stretch down 3-4 times in a lesson. But Amber does get a release eventually. The rein pressure is used fairly consistently with a 'secure contact' being used most of the time while ridden which maybe could be seen as something the horse can't escape from. But then again so is the weight of the rider? So if constant pressure on the rein is aversive why isn't constant pressure from the rider's weight?

I have far more questions than answers - I liked both blogs but the more I think about them, I think, but why.....

DabDab I'd never thought of LH as being just the same as 'sucking it up' for an easy life. Which we all do. And in the wild horses probably do as well. Not every horse fights for position in the herd. Some accept their lowly rank and just yield to the others without objection. Jenny does actually but she looks a bit sulky about it so I am sure she'd prefer not to always be last to the gate/water/hay/whatever.

I have ridden properly shut down horses which is what I always thought of as LH. In EAT terms they are 'void' horses and are no use for therapy as they just don't react like normal horses. It is just thinking of Ginny's apparent willingness which turned into total unwillingness at the same time as she became less afraid that made me think was THAT LH too? In which case how did I miss it? What clues did she give me while ridden. She seemed really happy. Very compliant, very off the leg. Ears pricked. The article really made me think of her though when Kathleen describes these lovely horses that over time become more unwilling and then go lame.
 
Ambers Echo said:
What do you mean by the LH method?.
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Sorry I edited back to front, I didn't mean LH method, I meant a lot of previous methods I have been told to use in the past to get a horse to comply could have led to LH because the horse felt like it had no other choice. I suppose methods I use now have the same effect in terms of compliance but I just feel kinder doing it the way I do it now I guess!
 
I think it can be quite hard to tell the difference between a willing horse and a horse that is acting out of LH - it can be quite subtle and outwardly the resulting actions can be the same.

If you think of classic examples of 'compliance behaviour', like someone reducing speed because there is a camera there, and then speeding up again, as opposed to someone who follows the speed limit because they are actively choosing to. The resulting action at the point of the speed camera looks the same, but in the grand scheme of things one is considerably more desireable than the other.

Compliance behaviour in itself isn't LH, but I think if you employ those methods too often in your training you do end up with an overall state of learned helplessness.
 
Ok so if LH can lead to reasonable level of apparent willingness which leads to compliance which leads to a fairly harmonious relationship between horse and rider then is it so bad?

I have always felt a little frustrated that of the horses on my yard the ones who are hammered in whatever tack (not beaten just ridden +++ and expected to get on with it) go on doing their jobs perfectly well year after year while the pampered ones are forever nursing some sort of issue or showing some sort of behavioural problem which leads to investigations (eg tack check) ands new saddles, physio etc.

I assumed this was just co-incidence on my yard but have the pampered horses learned to be quite precious? Do we go looking for problems as soon as the horse so much as swishes a tail or bucks into canter or stops at a fence (and then find them) when others might just crack on?

I am thinking of a particular 13hh pony bought from auction supposedly as a rising 4 year old. She was entered into a puissance at a local late summer show by her young rider a few weeks after getting her and came 2nd having jumped 1m20. She was competed regularly. Then sold on and the new owner had her vetted to discover she was a year younger than the original owners realised. So she had been jumping like that at 2! She is the sweetest, most willing pony you could ever meet and a firm yard favourite. I am sure it was physically detrimental to be ridden like that at 2 and problems may emerge later on, but it dopes not seem to have left any mental scars?

Another friend of my daughters has an awesome and very successful pony trials pony. Events at 1* and wins. She said the pony has never had a XC fault as he has learnt since day 1 that stopping is simply not an option. That pony is amazing. Huge presence in the dressage phase, lovely and affectionate. But is 'stopping is not an option' a form of LH too?

And which horses are happier: those under the thumb who comply with every appearance of willingness even if they don't feel they have a choice. Or those who express their discomfort and are listened to. From my own perspective, having no choice and just getting on with it can feel easier mentally than when I am feeling aggrieved and am listened to. It is counter intuitive but too much opportunity to grumble about stuff leads me to feel worse and a swift kick up the backside is often better for me.

So maybe a degree of LH/ resignation is actually a preferable state for a horse to be in, if it is expected to be a working animal??? Because given a true choice horses probably would not choose a ridden life at all?
 
AE, that is very thought provoking as well. i think it is the degree of , you MUST do this or else, that may be the problem. i think most of us agree that we must have a degree of compliance from our horses as they are big strong animals who can hurt us even if it is not intentional i.,e. pushing us to one side while going through a gate so we bash the gate and get injured. i also think that horses (and dogs) are happier knowing their boundaries but it is the level of correction that is important and there is a fine line between getting obedience and making the animal shut down and lose all joy when interacting with us. i find it all fascinating
 
Fwik learned helplessness in horses is mostly caused by pressure that isn't released when the horse has offered the action the rider wants. So it's not the use of negative reinforcement/ pressure, it's if a rider continues the pressure after the horse has tried all the responses it can. That would mean not giving a release once the horse has done what you ask or at least tried. It's the animals perceived inability to escape an unpleasant situation.

Behaviourists (back in the 50's) demonstrated this with both dogs and also rats by administering electric shocks that the animal couldn't escape when it tried all the ways it could to perform a task that was asked if them. The learned helplessness was demonstrated when the animal stopped trying to avoid the shocks.

The same thing can be seen in domestic abuse and modern slavery victims. Learned helplessness is the reason people don't leave the situation, even when they have the opportunity to.
 
Ambers Echo said:
And which horses are happier: those under the thumb who comply with every appearance of willingness even if they don't feel they have a choice. Or those who express their discomfort and are listened to. From my own perspective, having no choice and just getting on with it can feel easier mentally than when I am feeling aggrieved and am listened to. It is counter intuitive but too much opportunity to grumble about stuff leads me to feel worse and a swift kick up the backside is often better for me.

So maybe a degree of LH/ resignation is actually a preferable state for a horse to be in, if it is expected to be a working animal??? Because given a true choice horses probably would not choose a ridden life at all?
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Very thought-provoking.
I wonder if horses 'switch' into either state depending upon the circumstances at the time - I had one huge character of a horse who was a bit of a joker; could be a bit theatrical out hacking EXCEPT when we necessarily had to go on busy roads. He just knew that we had a job to do and just got on with it. I suspect we underestimate their abilities.
 
I don't know which is preferable but the debate is an interesting one.

Re a horse that learns that to stop at a fence is not an option: i don't think I would want to ride a horse like that XC. Sure, it would give you a competitive advantage, but if you are on a vastly wrong stride, wrong pace, wrong angle etc I want my horse to suss that for itself and if the horse believes we can't make the fence and land in one piece, I WANT it to stop. Tha'ts quite nuanced, the horse has to know that it should jump, it should be happy and prepared to jump, but if it knows it can't make it, then it shouldn't jump.

JMHO.

I know I like riding horses that know their own minds. It can make for some unpredictable times, but I prefer to know that the horse is engaging with the world and going along with me from some kind of agreement rather than having drilled the option so say "No" out of it.

I think you can tell the difference if you know horses - Millie always seems to have a sense of humour, not wanting to put human qualities on her but I'm sure people will know what I mean. The reason Kira has blossomed is because she agrees with her work, and we no longer do things she says no to, this does mean she's unpredictable at shows tho!

Salty though, Salty is a different horse again and i am finding her interesting to train and also and difficult to get a handle on.
She definitely has some learned helpnessness going on, it has been really hard to get her started on her journey because she doesn't experiment when you try to teach her something. what little I know of her past suggests that she's been dumped with various people and done a little work with some of them but never had consistency or actual training. At least one person I know she has been with is known for the type of training that leads to LH. She is a closed book, though she's started to become more "normal" on the ground over the last 6 months or so.

Initially I really tried to ride her like Kira, I wanted her to think for herself, try things out and meet me in the middle. That has got us *nowhere*, I became frustrated and also got a bit hopeless about her inability to concentrate and ditsy over-reativeness (getting bronked off because a haynet caught her eye is a bit unnecessary).
so I have changed tactics and at the moment we are going with making things ultra clear and having no space for independent thought, in an attempt to get some simple principles drilled in. I feel like a dictator, she seems more content, from a rider's POV she is performing better, now I have a good contact, swing over the back, more prompt reply to my aids, and I can stop the spook-rodeos because I can control what she is looking at better.
At some point, though, I *am* going to need her to start to experiment a bit. I'm not quite sure how we will get there! Cross that bridge when we get to it, I guess.

So it's absolutely horses for courses I think. I would always prefer the horse that you train like Kira, it's a nice way to spend time with horses. But if a horse like Salty is to be a ridden horse (and for her, the options are limited) then I guess it's not necessarily the best way.

i have ridden other horses that really did show signs of LH at very specific times, one example was backed too fast with no prep and came to me to be ridden away. Yikes that was an experience, you had to really take time to get the horse to engage with what you were doing when mounting because he would go into himself and then erupt when he "came to". He was totally normal once he'd accepted you were on, so I think that as trainers/riders we also have to be aware that it's not necessarily something that infiltrates the horse's whole experience of people, but can be learnt at really well defined points too.
 
splashgirl45 said:
i think it is the degree of , you MUST do this or else, that may be the problem. i think most of us agree that we must have a degree of compliance from our horses as they are big strong animals who can hurt us even if it is not intentional i.,e. pushing us to one side while going through a gate so we bash the gate and get injured. i also think that horses (and dogs) are happier knowing their boundaries but it is the level of correction that is important and there is a fine line between getting obedience and making the animal shut down and lose all joy when interacting with us.
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The author of the blogs is from the Ray Hunt/Buck Brannaman tradition and there is no doubt that they insist on compliance. I was at the BB clinic at Aintree last year and he went from 'level 1 pressure' (shift in energy/slightest pressure) to 'level 9 pressure' in a heartbeat if the horse did not respond to level 1. He talks of 'as soft as you can be, as firm as you need to be' or 'offer the horse a good deal or a bad deal (level 1 or level 9) and soon they will choose the good deal'. They also expect 100% focus from both horse and rider so the horse is tuned in to the rider at all times waiting for a cue. This makes for a very soft, light, responsive horse who appears virtually telepathic at times because they are so intently attuned to the rider.

What I am seriously beginning to question is that whether a horse actually LIKES being ridden in that way? I am questioning the assumption that this is somehow kinder. I mean would you prefer a boss who whispers then bellows or one that just speaks normally to you all the time? One that does not mind saying your name to get your attention before asking you a question (eg via a half halt) or one that expects you to be hanging onto his every word at all times?
 
mule said:
Fwik learned helplessness in horses is mostly caused by pressure that isn't released when the horse has offered the action the rider wants. So it's not the use of negative reinforcement/ pressure, it's if a rider continues the pressure after the horse has tried all the responses it can. That would mean not giving a release once the horse has done what you ask or at least tried. It's the animals perceived inability to escape an unpleasant situation.
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Yes and I am sure there are many truly shut down/dead behind the eyes horses who have just been pushed to a state of LH. What is interesting about the blog is how far does that extend? From what I can see from the author, she believes it applies to many horses including successful dressage competition horses who appear willingly compliant.

The assumption from the Western riders I have trained with is that rein pressure should be feather light. (I think the vaqueros talk of riding on a piece of thread). Again the assumption is this is kinder and that constant rein pressure as you may have in riding a horse on the bit in a more classical dressage style leads to LH as the horse cannot escape the pressure. But my dressage instructor talks of rein pressure being like holding the horse's hand and says horses like a secure contact and if you let them they will tell you how much they like. She has had 2 PSG horses, one with pretty light pressure and one with far more. You also can't release the pressure from the rider's back and yet these Western riders don't assume that pressure will lead to LH so why should rein pressure be different?
 
catkin said:
Very thought-provoking.
I wonder if horses 'switch' into either state depending upon the circumstances at the time - I had one huge character of a horse who was a bit of a joker; could be a bit theatrical out hacking EXCEPT when we necessarily had to go on busy roads. He just knew that we had a job to do and just got on with it. I suspect we underestimate their abilities.
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See I really like a horse with personality! Do these feather light, super-responsive horses actually show much?

It's a bit contradictory: they talk of giving the horse 'choice' but I can't see where the horse truly does have 'choice' in the way they ride? So is the end result actually a horse that shows LESS character and personality rather than more?
 
Ambers Echo said:
What I am seriously beginning to question is that whether a horse actually LIKES being ridden in that way? I am questioning the assumption that this is somehow kinder. I mean would you prefer a boss who whispers then bellows or one that just speaks normally to you all the time? One that does not mind saying your name to get your attention before asking you a question (eg via a half halt) or one that expects you to be hanging onto his every word at all times?
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Hard to assess what horses would prefer without a study ;) but my instinctive reply to this is that the speed of escalation and the frequency of metaphorically saying their name will vary over time and as training progresses.

I know I'm prepared to give a green horse more time to notice I'm asking something, more time to escalate and I am prepared to warn them of an incoming instruction more.
As they get more established, then the expectation around staying tuned in to my aid increases and escalation from whispered aid is quicker. Of the 2 I am riding regularly now, I try to ride Kira with as light aids as possible but the flip side of that is she has to be listening for them *all the time*. Whereas Salty doesn't have that degree of learning or ability to concentrate for extended periods of time

And when I teach something new I go back to the more patient, more prompting way until the horse is clear on the exercise.

I don't think it's necessary to be 100% in one camp or the other. I think it's difficult to think of what the horse would prefer, because they'd prefer being out in the field, really. But to be able to use only light aids must surely be more comfortable ?
 
MP thanks for such detailed and interesting replies! Plenty of food for thought.

I agree I want a horse with a degree of willingness to think for herself. And one that has learnt how to learn and so will try out solutions and problem solve. And one that is attentive and therefore responsive. And the blog author and those trainers talks at length about the importance of those things. But there feels a disconnect between what they SAY and what is actually happening.

Buck at Aintree was riding a green horse he had never sat in before and cut him no slack at all. Well fine, it certainly worked and the horse was transformed but was that horse learning to learn, thinking for itself etc. Or was the horse just responding to clear communication and impeccable timing?

There are genius riders in every tradition (Buck is one such I believe) but sometimes maybe the whole story around their methods is flawed? Monty Roberts says he speaks 'Equus', whereas I think join up operates on very simple behavioural principles, for example.

And Buck says his way of riding is kinder, fairer and leads to true co-operation from the horse. Well maybe not that either. Maybe in the end the key ingredients are clarity, communication, timing and feel. So good riders have good horses no matter what tradition they come from because of the clarity, timing and feel they are able to offer.
 
Ambers Echo said:
And Buck says his way of riding is kinder, fairer and leads to true co-operation from the horse. Well maybe not that either. Maybe in the end the key ingredients are clarity, communication, timing and feel. So good riders have good horses no matter what tradition they come from because of the clarity, timing and feel they are able to offer.
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I think this hits the nail on the head for me.
I think it's tempting to look for a "method" because training horses is difficult because there are so many variables and so when someone presents a set of steps to follow, it promises to take away some of the difficulty.

The reality IMO is that all horses must exhibit some form of LH otherwise they'd never let us sit on them, day after day. I don't think that is cooperation really, we can tell ourselves that through a period of gentle learning the horse learns that it's OK for us to sit on their back but when they put up objections we find ways to make them just accept it... if the horse bucks, we cling on, until they stop bucking.

In welfare terms, I really find it necessary to have doublethink about horses, they really don't need to be ridden, they'd prefer not to be ridden and so every time I get on a horse and ride it I have to ignore that fact. And then try to make the work as fair and as stress-free as possible. My dad thinks riding horses is cruel, he's probably right really, it's bloody addictive though :rolleyes:
 
Ambers Echo said:
Maybe in the end the key ingredients are clarity, communication, timing and feel. So good riders have good horses no matter what tradition they come from because of the clarity, timing and feel they are able to offer.
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Can I add one more key ingredient please - concentration by the rider on the task in hand. If we want to engage the horse in what they are doing, should we not offer the same commitment to them? (My ponies are VERY clear on this so in deference to them I must add it in)
 
There was a video doing the rounds a few years ago (sadly I can't find it now) where a horse was tied up firm (no breakable link) and the 'trainer' was throwing plastic chairs at the horse. In the end, the horse just stood there and still the chairs came. I think it showed LH in horses.

I have an acquaintance whose horse, IMO, showed LH. She had 'sacked it out/decentralised it' and oh boy that horse was dead to its surroundings. I'm not sure if it had any sense of self preservation left.

I had a terrible time in hospital after a bad accident and essentially went into LH myself. I wouldn't wish it on any living creature. It is a torturous place to be mentally.

I have had to train my horses slightly off from the norm due to my physical needs, so they help me out. If you reward the desired behaviors every time to start with (I use treats), but then switch to rewarding every now and again, they actually try harder to get it right. I have done some training loose in the field, they don't have to come over and they can wander off at any point, but the possibility of a carrot will have my gelding walking on and halting for different lengths of time at my side several times over. Halting and standing nicely was once his bete noire, he is not a fan of standing still. Now though there is a reason to stand still and he is motivated to do it.
 
milliepops said:
I think this hits the nail on the head for me.
I think it's tempting to look for a "method" because training horses is difficult because there are so many variables and so when someone presents a set of steps to follow, it promises to take away some of the difficulty.

The reality IMO is that all horses must exhibit some form of LH otherwise they'd never let us sit on them, day after day. I don't think that is cooperation really, we can tell ourselves that through a period of gentle learning the horse learns that it's OK for us to sit on their back but when they put up objections we find ways to make them just accept it... if the horse bucks, we cling on, until they stop bucking.

In welfare terms, I really find it necessary to have doublethink about horses, they really don't need to be ridden, they'd prefer not to be ridden and so every time I get on a horse and ride it I have to ignore that fact. And then try to make the work as fair and as stress-free as possible. My dad thinks riding horses is cruel, he's probably right really, it's bloody addictive though :rolleyes:
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That’s the crux of it really, isn’t it.
Over recent years I’ve become far more attuned to the fact that ‘we’ basically use horses for our own benefit. We essentially make them do things that often, I’m sure given the choice, they would choose not to do. The label we give to that, LH or something else, doesn’t really matter.
When the majority of people who ride are animal lovers, when you think of it like that it’s kind of unsavoury. But I think only when that realisation dawns on you can you take real steps towards mitigating it.
 
Loving this thread! When I first read the blogs I suppose i interpreted LH as those horses that just keep working day after day because humans have ignored the signs that they hurt, need to stop whatever..... I was on a yard with some ex polo ponies and it was obvious to me one was sore somewhere, but no one was interested. That poor mare actually lay down when being led in from the field one day because no one would listen.

But then again perhaps it isn't that extreme. Militaire was trained with the clicker at the circus I understand, so positive reinforcement. That's supposed to be a good method, but even with it he must have carried on working with knackered joints because those arthritic changes didn't happen overnight. So he would have been working through the pain because he didn't know how to tell people. After 3 years with me he is still the most compliant horse I have ever had so I have to be very alert to him being 'off' because he will shut down rather than shout.

And then that brings me onto the very shouty mare. She'd tell you if she has an eyelash out of place - I thought - but carried on with me riding her when she had a dodgy leg. So that must be LH too. And I'm depressing myself a bit with that thought tbh.
 
in a way i think the horses who have been trained by a professional to be absolutely obedient at all times and appear to be bombproof, then sold to a competent amateur who does not expect those high standards can sometimes result in the horse's behaviour changing dramatically, and although this is no ones fault the amateur feels they have been sold something that is different to the ad. its a fascinating subject and i wish i was at the beginning of my horse ownership and not at the end...
 
Faracat said:
There was a video doing the rounds a few years ago (sadly I can't find it now) where a horse was tied up firm (no breakable link) and the 'trainer' was throwing plastic chairs at the horse. In the end, the horse just stood there and still the chairs came. I think it showed LH in horses.

I have an acquaintance whose horse, IMO, showed LH. She had 'sacked it out/decentralised it' and oh boy that horse was dead to its surroundings. I'm not sure if it had any sense of self preservation left.

I had a terrible time in hospital after a bad accident and essentially went into LH myself. I wouldn't wish it on any living creature. It is a torturous place to be mentally.

I have had to train my horses slightly off from the norm due to my physical needs, so they help me out. If you reward the desired behaviors every time to start with (I use treats), but then switch to rewarding every now and again, they actually try harder to get it right. I have done some training loose in the field, they don't have to come over and they can wander off at any point, but the possibility of a carrot will have my gelding walking on and halting for different lengths of time at my side several times over. Halting and standing nicely was once his bete noire, he is not a fan of standing still. Now though there is a reason to stand still and he is motivated to do it.
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Interestingly a variable reward schedule is what makes gambling so addictive.(I'm not suggesting your horse is addicted to carrots) 🥕 😂but it does make sense that they would try harder.
 
SEL said:
Loving this thread! When I first read the blogs I suppose i interpreted LH as those horses that just keep working day after day because humans have ignored the signs that they hurt, need to stop whatever..... I was on a yard with some ex polo ponies and it was obvious to me one was sore somewhere, but no one was interested. That poor mare actually lay down when being led in from the field one day because no one would listen.

But then again perhaps it isn't that extreme. Militaire was trained with the clicker at the circus I understand, so positive reinforcement. That's supposed to be a good method, but even with it he must have carried on working with knackered joints because those arthritic changes didn't happen overnight. So he would have been working through the pain because he didn't know how to tell people. After 3 years with me he is still the most compliant horse I have ever had so I have to be very alert to him being 'off' because he will shut down rather than shout.

And then that brings me onto the very shouty mare. She'd tell you if she has an eyelash out of place - I thought - but carried on with me riding her when she had a dodgy leg. So that must be LH too. And I'm depressing myself a bit with that thought tbh.
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I suppose one thing to bear in mind is that not showing pain is an evolutionary benefit for prey animals so Militaire or the shouty mare may just unwittingly be doing what their species is programmed to do.
 
It's not as simple as "contact" or "feather light response" though. My mare has the lightest mouth of any horse I've ever felt. If I hack her, or school her on a loose rein, we can work through anything without picking up a contact - sliding stops, roll backs, haunch turns, sideways, backwards - or working through schooling on a loose rein. If I pick her up and ride her traditional, English-style, into a contact, she takes a decent contact and works into the contact (with varying levels of quality, because we don't do much schooling, but with the same level of compliance). They're different ways of training, and the horse should respond to them differently, feeling different sorts of confidence in the different feels of the aids they receive.
 
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