Livery yard - Trading Standards?

Pearlsasinger said:
Can I ask, what is the difference between claiming benefits and running a business and not declaring your income for tax purposes (which appears to be what OP suspects in this case)? Both surely are cases of defrauding the tax-payer?
Click to expand...
Just a guess here, but if you claim benefits wrongly, then you are getting tax payers money for doing absolutely **** all, but if you are not declaring all income, then maybe, and I emphasise the maybe, you are working very hard for a pittance and struggling to make your business work?? Just a guess though! I'm not condoning either practise!
 
chocolategirl said:
Just a guess here, but if you claim benefits wrongly, then you are getting tax payers money for doing absolutely **** all, but if you are not declaring all income, then maybe, and I emphasise the maybe, you are working very hard for a pittance and struggling to make your business work?? Just a guess though! I'm not condoning either practise!
Click to expand...
If it was struggling that much there would be no tax to pay! Why should somebody running a business be treated any better than anybody on PAYE earning the same nett income?
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Can I ask, what is the difference between claiming benefits and running a business and not declaring your income for tax purposes (which appears to be what OP suspects in this case)? Both surely are cases of defrauding the tax-payer?
Click to expand...

Very few livery yards make enough to pay tax. If they do, then they would have to employ people and pay NI contributions etc. They would be idiots not to operate above the radar. Personally, I wouldn't report anyone for doing either. Just not a tell tale I suppose, no matter what I think of what they are doing, other than child abuse, animal abuse, murder or burglary and such like.
 
I go to work & I fall into x tax bracket whether I like it or not & i have to pay my taxes. If you are taking money from people to earn a living, however that may be then you are required to pay tax. You declare your earnings & the tax office works out what you owe. It's not fair but that's life.
 
But still an interesting thread. I don't think anyone who has 1/4 of a brain would think that they could make a really good whack out of livery. I suppose you could do reasonably well (ish) if you owned your own yard but otherwise...it's definitely a lifestyle choice.

Theoretically, all the owners should have their own PIL and insurance but a good friend who has a small yard pays extra to have her own backup cover as well.

Fact is, as soon as the word "horse" is mentioned, all costs seem to rocket!
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Can I ask, what is the difference between claiming benefits and running a business and not declaring your income for tax purposes (which appears to be what OP suspects in this case)? Both surely are cases of defrauding the tax-payer?
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more. Don't understand why tax evasion is thought to be acceptable whereas benefit fraud is lower than low.
 
There some reasons for being self employed and doing a self assessment for form rather than working for someone else and doing PAYE, you have so many months to pay the tax at the end of the tax year. I was told at the tax office if you run a business that consistently does not make any money its called a hobby.
 
honetpot said:
Actually its every ones business. Every business that supplies goods or services to the public should have public liability and if they employ anyone have employees liability. I have no liveries but do own land and I have insurance for stock straying, people being injured on my property and products liability in case I sell a few apples and someone bites into a grub.
I wonder if you would be so sanguine if it was a garage, or car trader dealing from his home. My daughter is a seamstress , an a outwardly low risk occupation but she has full liability insurance to if your wedding dress goes up in smoke whist in here care, she's covered. If they are running a business they should also pay business rates on any buildings, whether they get 100% relief or not.
Click to expand...

It's not everyone's business though? I run a yard and im insured, pay NI and tax if required. But that's my business, no one else's
 
Actually glad this thread came up as was wondering what is required to "legally" run a livery yard recently. Not much it seems!

It was due to a slightly different situation as also pulls in a benefit fraud issue but lady local to us rents a house with land and stables where she lives and keeps her own horses but also those of a few of her friends who she refers to in conversation as her liveries. She has plenty time to run the yard as does not work and is on benefits including disability. Also has a granddaughter who helps out on the yard but also claims to be her carer and gets allowance for this. They are quite open about it. I take it all with a pinch of salt as I would like to believe that it can't be possible to fool the system to that extent but why would you lie to people about being on benefits if you aren't? Mind boggles but like others have said I do not know the full situation so none of my business. If I had hard facts then hell yes I would report them for benefit fraud!
 
Like wagtail, I run a small livery yard and do my tax returns as I'm supposed to however in the first two years I have been operating I have made a loss and will prob be the same this year, if its not it will be no where near enough to be taxed! I had a conversation only yesterday that I'm sure livery owners think us livery yard owners a raking it, that couldn't be further from the truth!
I do have a staff member but she is an apprentice so not earning enough for ni contributions.
I do have public liability insurance and employee insurance and insurance to teach however.
Op, how can you possibly know whether they are earning enough to pay tax unless you are their book keeper?!?
I think people see what is being charged and assume wrongly that there is big money involved.
Outgoings for a livery yard are huge
Rent
Electric
Water
Business rates
Insurance
Maintenance
Staff wages
Staff training
Feed
Hay
Bedding
Muck removal
Fuel for vehicles
Tax and insurance for vehicles
The list is endless!
 
Arzada said:
Bit of a generalisation! I don't think so. If I like the yard and my horse is happy and I can afford the costs then that's the end of the matter for me.
Click to expand...

Ok , maybe not all but looking at many many threads on here , that's the impression that is given by many people on here

My liveries appreciate the cost involved and are greatful for the service they receive and are all brilliant but from reading posts about setting up yards, liveries moaning about not getting enough for their money etc etc ,on here, there is a general impression that people think livery yards are a big money making venture( op included by the sounds of it) when in fact, its not.
 
Last edited:
It's not mentioned in the OP, but can anyone tell me what bumps your rates up from domestic (or whatever non business rates are called) to business rates? Also what is the difference in the amount? I was wondering if anyone who rents out a couple of stables should be liable for business rates.

I can't see how anyone makes a profit out of liveries. I own my own small horsey property and know how much it cost to put good equestrian facilites in place, and then to maintain them. I'd have thought that livery owners who do things by the book would be very unhappy at being undercut by those who wing it.

(I'm not intending to shop anybody, just curious.)
 
Can you define doing liveries by the book please.
There are different standards of liveries and it is down to peoples choice where they take their horses weighing cost against facilities. If you mean statutory regulations there are none that no other business has to adhere to.
Anybody who rents out stables of any sort are liable for business rates and that will be on all the facilities not just the boxes rented out. It kicks in as soon as you take money for giving a service.
 
Last edited:
Tiddlypom said:
I'd have thought that livery owners who do things by the book would be very unhappy at being undercut by those who wing it.
Click to expand...

^^^This!

Those traders who fail to pay employees through the books/don't declare income/dodge business rates/don't have employees liability insurance etc etc make the playing field unlevel for those who do do things correctly and 'by the book'.

I find some responses on this thread bizarre! You may not need a licence to operate a livery yard, but there are still many obligations that must be fulfilled as a business owner like any other business owner.
 
Dont think anybody has denied this! however the OP asked where to report a yard to and to some it appeared to be not something they would do and honestly I question the OPs motives. It was just pointed out that the only thing in the list that gave as reasons to report them was the tax issue , Still feel anybody bright enough to try and avoid tax is very unlikely to be handing out invoices as I am sure you may agree
 
Tiddlypom said:
It's not mentioned in the OP, but can anyone tell me what bumps your rates up from domestic (or whatever non business rates are called) to business rates? Also what is the difference in the amount? I was wondering if anyone who rents out a couple of stables should be liable for business rates.

I can't see how anyone makes a profit out of liveries. I own my own small horsey property and know how much it cost to put good equestrian facilites in place, and then to maintain them. I'd have thought that livery owners who do things by the book would be very unhappy at being undercut by those who wing it.

(I'm not intending to shop anybody, just curious.)
Click to expand...

If stables are more than a certain distance from the house then they will attract business rates even if only used for private use. In addition, any stables not used for your own horses but for other people's horses, whether paid for or given for free, attract business rates.
 
popsdosh said:
Can you define doing liveries by the book please.

Anybody who rents out stables of any sort are liable for business rates and that will be on all the facilities not just the boxes rented out. It kicks in as soon as you take money for giving a service.
Click to expand...

Even if you don't rent out your stables you can be liable for business rates. If the VOA considers your stables not in the curtilage of your garden they may try to get business rates out of you, even if you are only using them privately. Something to think about when applying for planning permission . And it isn't business rates it is either domestic rates or non domestic rates.

http://www.2010.voa.gov.uk/rli/static/HelpPages/English/help/help064-how_we_rate_stables.html

A discussion from a few years ago http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16998
 
Don't forget the VAT man either. It does seem strange that there isn't some sort of licence for running a livery yard. I am sure there are those that have beein going for years and and years and have never had any sort of planning permission, they have just started up and carried on.
 
popsdosh said:
I think a lot of livery yards would love to be anywhere near the VAT threshold.
Click to expand...

This; I had a visit from the council about business rates a few years ago; Once I told them I only kept my horses here ( my home as well ) they didn't ask any more questions. I have had a few liveries ( only friends horses ) over the last 13 years, but as I only charged them £25 a week ( only here for a short period while waiting for spaces elsewhere )I doubt I would have had to pay tax on it.
 
Broodle said:
I find some responses on this thread bizarre! You may not need a licence to operate a livery yard, but there are still many obligations that must be fulfilled as a business owner like any other business owner.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is arguing that livery yards should be treated any differently from anyone else paying tax. My objection is to actually REPORTING them. I would question the motives of anyone doing this, especially as the majority of yards would be under the tax threshold in any case.
 
With my cynical hat pulled firmly on, I don't see the benefits of being registered. It's yet another cost for horse owners. What is the benefit? Bad yards get a poor reputation quickly and when you look at a yard, you can see the most obvious things such as state of yard, stables, fields, how the horses look etc etc. Also, I seem to remember DEFRA being a very real threat to horses during foot and mouth when they tried to get horses reclassified.
 
I'm afraid I think increased professionalism in the horse world would benefit everyone - professionals would get paid better because they wouldn't be competing with the cheap below-the-radar "businesses"; owners and riders should get better services and more comeback if things go wrong; horse welfare would increase because you'd get less of things being done on the cheap and corner cutting.

Whether or not you are liable to pay tax, you should still declare your income. Everyone else has to if they run any sort of business; why, yet again, does there seem to be a view that the "professional" horse world is somehow exempt from the tedious paperwork and rule-following that everyone else has to do?

And as far as insurance goes, that IS everyone's business. If a yard owner doesn't have public liability insurance and a horse gets through dodgy fencing in front of my car, it's very much my business. If I'm a livery and the stable hand is injured by my horse and not insured by the employer, how do you think I'm going to feel about that?

I suppose I believe in everyone doing their bit to make society work fairly. That means we don't pick and choose which rules we want to follow. Breaking and ignoring rules is one of the biggest sources of problems in the equine business world (broken livery contracts, etc) for owners and professionals - if you want to run a business, play fair and do it properly!
 
pixie said:
I think then that liveries need to be prepared to pay a more realistic amount of money for their horses keep....
Click to expand...

I agree absolutely. I don't think it's in anyone's interest to keep horses at a livery that isn't making enough money. Sure, the weekly bill might be cheap, but we hear endless stories about poor fencing, poor field care, overstocking, poorly maintained stables ... Surely better for everyone that liveries are charged a fair price and people only keep horses if they can afford to pay that fair price?

£25 per week for stable and grazing is pretty unrealistic in most circumstances if you want a decent service for the livery and a fair wage for the YO. So why does it seem to be the norm?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top