Long and low is wrong???

[paddi22]

My issue with a lot of these blogs is they take a subject and then pick it apart to be controversial a lot of the time (accompanied by fairly eye catching negative over-simplified headlines), without actually giving an option on what their concept of BEST practice is and what should replace it.

There is a tendency for the lay people to get TOO scientific about stuff. Like I can read that blog on the forelegs having a % more weight on them than hind, but realistically when riding and lunging I can't put any of that into practice or even understand it on a stride to stride movement of the horse.

 

[Trinkett]

My issue with a lot of these blogs is they take a subject and then pick it apart to be controversial a lot of the time (accompanied by fairly eye catching negative over-simplified headlines), without actually giving an option on what their concept of BEST practice is and what should replace it.

Their is a tendency for the lay people to get TOO scientific about stuff. Like I can read that blog on the forelegs having a % more weight on them than hind, but realistically when riding and lunging I can't put any of that into practice or even understand it on a stride to stride movement of the horse.

Exactly! The person that made the original comment a few posts before was saying that Dalera BB, during the freestyle for the German championships, was lame! That "her fetlock looked painful"
.......
I was laughing, it was the only thing to do

 

[paddi22]

I find with a lot of the very technical science of dressage stuff on the science in motion site that for my level it's not even a consideration because it's so far above my capabilities to put into practice. You can know everything on paper and still sit on a horse and not be able to implement it. It's the difference between having the feel and understanding to turn a car around a roundabout smoothly, and then someone overcomplicating it by telling you the engine force at that minute, technical angle of curve, amount of petrol needed and exact force of torque. it's just beyond the information most people need or can understand unless an expert in that field.

I actually think thats quite a negative article for that site to write because you have to ask yourself do people gain anything positive from reading it? it just burdens people with more worry they aren't doing it right and you risk people taking away the idea that long and low is just bad now. If someone is gonna do an article like that, surely they need to put up a video or comparison still analysing the correct way or improvements that could be made.

 

[milliepops]

I actually think thats quite a negative article for that site to write because you have to ask yourself do people gain anything positive from reading it? it just burdens people with more worry they aren't doing it right and you risk people taking away the idea that long and low is just bad now. If someone is gonna do an article like that, surely they need to put up a video or comparison still analysing the correct way or improvements that could be made.

a cynic might say that trying to make people doubt their existing trainers or their own feel and experience, is a nifty way to get more people to flock to pay you ££ for your insight

 

[ester]

Who knows you? What does that even mean?
Are you one of those boomers that don't believe you can find infos online?
Funny!

err none of the above?
WTF are you on about.
I was predicting that jean luc would have something to say about it/science in motion is quite well known for having slightly odd ideas. But yeah, you just carry on kicking off about I'm not sure what ?

ETA it did put me in mind I think of an America rider who rides his LL pretty much all the time early on in their education. I can't remember a name though, and only think it was US based on what I remember the arena looks like. It's bugging me if it anyone else knows it.

 

[Trinkett]

I find with a lot of the very technical science of dressage stuff on the science in motion site that for my level it's not even a consideration because it's so far above my capabilities to put into practice. You can know everything on paper and still sit on a horse and not be able to implement it. It's the difference between having the feel and understanding to turn a car around a roundabout smoothly, and then someone overcomplicating it by telling you the engine force at that minute, technical angle of curve, amount of petrol needed and exact force of torque. it's just beyond the information most people need or can understand unless an expert in that field.

I actually think thats quite a negative article for that site to write because you have to ask yourself do people gain anything positive from reading it? it just burdens people with more worry they aren't doing it right and you risk people taking away the idea that long and low is just bad now. If someone is gonna do an article like that, surely they need to put up a video or comparison still analysing the correct way or improvements that could be made.

I agree with you, I actually reached an higher level in dressage but now I'm back to basics with a young horse, but my interest sparks from one thing only: hypochondria
I'm scared of hurting my horse, even though I ride 2-3 times a week for 30 min max, and the rest of the time I mostly walk and do groundwork/lunging
But I'm always scared of creating an injury, so every time I can enrich my knowledge with something to better deal with horse anatomy I will, but I will still doubt certain things and ask others for their opinion
Not to find the perfect opinion but just to open up to more methods that people used

 

[milliepops]

I also come from a POV of not wanting to unintentionally injure my horse, she's now a product of many years training and aside from loving her as an animal I want her to carry on working for as long as possible.

with that in mind, if the horse says to me that she wants a big stretch after doing some work, I figure that it must feel good for her body. and if it feels good, it probably does good. Everything in moderation, we don't do 5 stretching sessions in a row, we don't do 5 sessions purely in collection.

 

[teapot]

I think there's a huge difference in someone riding their horse 'long and low' where they have zero contact, feel, connectivity, and horse is ploughing along in front on its forehand, and riding a horse low and long where the horse is still moving correctly and there's a contact...

I'm always surprised at how many people think the two are the same.

-crawls back under rock-

 

[shortstuff99]

err none of the above?
WTF are you on about.
I was predicting that jean luc would have something to say about it/science in motion is quite well known for having slightly odd ideas. But yeah, you just carry on kicking off about I'm not sure what ?

ETA it did put me in mind I think of an America rider who rides his LL pretty much all the time early on in their education. I can't remember a name though, and only think it was US based on what I remember the arena looks like. It's bugging me if it anyone else knows it.

Art2Ride? That has had a lot of stick recently for damaging horses.

 

[Trinkett]

I also come from a POV of not wanting to unintentionally injure my horse, she's now a product of many years training and aside from loving her as an animal I want her to carry on working for as long as possible.

with that in mind, if the horse says to me that she wants a big stretch after doing some work, I figure that it must feel good for her body. and if it feels good, it probably does good. Everything in moderation, we don't do 5 stretching sessions in a row, we don't do 5 sessions purely in collection.

Yeah usually my mare want to stretch after canter, because she's still learning how to be balanced in it and with me in the Saddle of course it's more difficult

 

[ester]

A yes that one SS! Thanks!

 

[milliepops]

A yes that one SS! Thanks!

yeah another culty one with accredited trainers etc.

 

[Trinkett]

Art2Ride? That has had a lot of stick recently for damaging horses.

Yes I also read in a fb group about them, I only saw some of the earlier b videos but didn't like them very much

 

[TPO]

I think there's a huge difference in someone riding their horse 'long and low' where they have zero contact, feel, connectivity, and horse is ploughing along in front on its forehand, and riding a horse low and long where the horse is still moving correctly and there's a contact...

I'm always surprised at how many people think the two are the same.

-crawls back under rock-

Exactly

 

[Goldenstar]

Training horses requires them to increase their flexibility and control as human athletes do.
Working in the stretch develops the horse so does working with the poll as the highest point .
Doing one without the other leaves the horse weak in some areas .
The stretch will at times put a horse on its front , I think a lot of horses are pushed down further than they can go without losing balance .
A stretch of two inches is a stretch to a horse who is at the early stage of learning .

 

[tristar]

I don't really have "a dog in the fight", Im not really interested in saying c dressage is better than modern dressage, to me everything is a tool in the tool box, so certain attitudes don't make sense in my world!
I'm just trying to better understand the mechanics of the Horse, and since I'm a hypochondriac, to keep my horse in the best health possible while still riding ?

i had to laugh at that, you have a great way of expressing yourself, like where you are coming from

 

[maya2008]

I have seen extremes that are not beneficial to the horse in both classical and ‘normal’ dressage. Brainwashing of clients to follow unproductive regimes also, by charismatic trainers.

Most things have their place, used correctly, and most things, if used to excess, are not beneficial. I think too much is ‘taught’ as a set of instructions rather than with full understanding in both styles of dressage; too many trainers only have ‘one’ way to do things.

 

[Goldenstar]

Well one of the knacks of learning is learning to pick and choose your trainers .
To develop a system that you work in , to educate yourself .
Too many people IMO turn over to much responsibility for the journey to the trainer it’s not the trainers journey it’s yours .
Then you don’t fall into the guru trap its your journey and if you aims are competitive the arena at a competition is a lonely place you need to be able to depend on yourself .
I see a lot of trainers atm working hard to get horses to go better I see only a few systematically developing riders to train better .
Thats what you want someone whose developing you so you can train every horse better .
To little work is done on developing position now a days .

 

[Orangehorse]

I rode my horse long and low incorrectly and all I did was to make him tip onto his forehand, ruined him really.

 

[Four Seasons]

There's long and low and long and low. You can force a horse to go long and low and round, this is incorrect. The horse will seem correct, but the hind legs will be trailing and the back won't be engaged. Now you can ride your horse towards the bit, creating impulsion and engagement, which we make the hind legs push, the back and core will engage, enabling the horse to lower their head, without the dumping all of their weight on the forehand.

Long and low isn't wrong, it all depends on how it is done. There will always be FB experts claiming one thing is wrong and they know it all, their method is the only correct method. What I like to do, is to read as much as I can and use bits and pieces in my training. Whatever suits me and my horses.

 

[Trinkett]

There's long and low and long and low. You can force a horse to go long and low and round, this is incorrect. The horse will seem correct, but the hind legs will be trailing and the back won't be engaged. Now you can ride your horse towards the bit, creating impulsion and engagement, which we make the hind legs push, the back and core will engage, enabling the horse to lower their head, without the dumping all of their weight on the forehand.

Long and low isn't wrong, it all depends on how it is done. There will always be FB experts claiming one thing is wrong and they know it all, their method is the only correct method. What I like to do, is to read as much as I can and use bits and pieces in my training. Whatever suits me and my horses.

That's what I'm trying to do, I encountered classical dressage and I want to know more about it, as I said, it's a tool in the toolbox, I even watch Warwick Schiller and Tristan tucker fully knowing that not everything they do will work with me/my horse but at least I have more ways to make things work!

 

[Casey76]

Long and low (or better, forward, down, out) is meant to be a stretch, a reward for more intensive work in young horses. It is not meant to be the be all and end all.

Long and low can be done well (withers raised, hind quarters coming well under) or badly (falling onto the forehand, hind legs trailing, slopping along, no impulsion). There are few people who can ride long and low correctly and effectively. It is much more common to *think* the horse is moving ‘long and low’ when in actual fact they aren’t working actively at all. People (yes, generalizing here), think ‘oh yes, my horse is working long and low’ when in fact they are just going along on the forehand with the nose on the ground.

 

[sbloom]

This is the approach I like the best https://www.facebook.com/ManoloMendezDressage/photos/a.313919025414143/1400564310082937/ though I think Cornille has some merits he is indeed very hard to follow and understand, in part because of translation issues. Tensegrity is an interesting concept, you can find easy explanations on Youtube.