Lottie and Everdale latest test wins, God help us rewarding this disgrace.

[tristars]

I have written for a judge who was horrified by the way the horse was being ridden, but had to mark the movements, did mark the rider accordingly. Maybe use collective marks for submission and riding as a multiplier, might help improve training and riding if judges brave enough to heavily penalise bad riding and unhappy horses.

is there ever a case for stopping a test? on horse welfare grounds

 

[equinerebel]

British Dressage is at the highest level it has ever been. We have a good chance of gold medals at the next Olympics.
People will do whatever it takes to represent their country at the top level.

An excellent argument against the continuation of equestrian sports at the Olympics.

 

[Clodagh]

An excellent argument against the continuation of equestrian sports at the Olympics.

I think they should be stopped. Sadly.

 

[ycbm]

British Dressage is at the highest level it has ever been. We have a good chance of gold medals at the next Olympics.
People will do whatever it takes to represent their country at the top level.

There should be a "some" at the front of your sentence. Many people wouldn't, when there is a horse involved.
.

 

[equinerebel]

I think they should be stopped. Sadly.

It is hard to come to any other conclusion at the moment

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

I think they should be stopped. Sadly.

I agree they should be stopped too. And probably wouldn't be sad about it as no horse "sport" comes out of it cleanly currently.

Then the flying them all around the world etc

 

[stormox]

There should be a "some" at the front of your sentence. Many people wouldn't, when there is a horse involved.
.

Most professionals would, I believe. And I doubt Gt Britain's team are the worst offenders....

 

[ycbm]

Most professionals would, I believe. And I doubt Gt Britain's team are the worst offenders....

I agree on both but that will also be why they are professionals and others remain amateurs.

It's not really any argument for riding that way or treating horses as they are treated. I'm not sure if you meant it to be, or not.

Of course it's pretty easy to sit as a not very high level dressage rider (hands up here) and say you wouldn't do that to get to the Olympics, but I genuinely believe I wouldn't (though i might have done 30 years ago before I knew what I know now) and that many, many people wouldn't.

 

[Clodagh]

Sort of off topic but when I hunted it was all about me AND MY HORSE having a fabulous day. Now I work my dogs it’s all about me AND MY DOGS working together and loving it. I work my animals hard, always have done, but it’s important to me that they enjoy it too.
Only ever a complete amateur at everything but my horse saw the tack coming and felt positive about it, do you think poor old Everdale ever does.,

 

[ihatework]

I've watched a lot of tense gobby 5* eventing tests albeit those aren't the ones that end up in the lead. .

Yes let’s be honest there are some very bad eventing tests. They do generally/more often get given reflective marks. Although saying that there are a core that are overmarked too.

 

[catembi]

You are right, Clodagh. In the dim & distant past when I had a sound horse in work, I stopped doing lessons with two separate trainers who were competing at a very high level as they wanted me to ride in a way that made me uncomfortable, i.e. over-harsh, bullying. I wanted my horse to enjoy what we were doing & not be bullied & uncomfortable. Think mega tight noseband, lots of spur, too much hand...

 

[Lucky Snowball]

I also had a lesson with a top rider who kept telling me to use more spur and shorten the curb. I felt guilty on the drive home and never went back.

 

[Cadbury]

A while back I worked at a dealers yard that sold young dressage horses and was appalled at how they were ridden. 3 year olds that were only just broken in were forced into outlines that were way behind the vertical, usually whilst being booted forward, and repeatedly beaten with the whip if they objected. These horses were so obviously unhappy and uncomfortable. It amazed me that the riders there actually considered themselves good and were proud of the awful resulting photos that went up on the website for all to see. They sold okay though, so presumably that’s what a lot of people want, which is the really sad part.

 

[scats]

You are right, Clodagh. In the dim & distant past when I had a sound horse in work, I stopped doing lessons with two separate trainers who were competing at a very high level as they wanted me to ride in a way that made me uncomfortable, i.e. over-harsh, bullying. I wanted my horse to enjoy what we were doing & not be bullied & uncomfortable. Think mega tight noseband, lots of spur, too much hand...

This is one of the reasons I stopped having lessons with a GP dressage trainer. I felt like Millie was being pushed too much and the way I was being asked to ride her didn’t sit right with me.
Some people might be ok with putting that sort of pressure on horses, but it wasn’t for me.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I trained weekly for a fair while with a List 1 dressage judge

She told me ‘Whatever he offers you will not be enough, always ask for more’.

That was a watershed moment - how to sicken a horse. Much better to praise a horse who attempts what you ask it do, and then you quietly work away at improving it.

By ‘praising’ I mean perhaps a neck scratch and maybe a walk on a long rein, then back to work. Not constantly hammering round without a break demanding that the horse does what I insist.

 

[little_critter]

This is one of the reasons I stopped having lessons with a GP dressage trainer. I felt like Millie was being pushed too much and the way I was being asked to ride her didn’t sit right with me.
Some people might be ok with putting that sort of pressure on horses, but it wasn’t for me.

Same here, I train with a gentle classical trainer but she has no interest in competing. I tried a lesson with a GP rider to get a bit of competition training. I was disappointed that rather than see what we could do in our own riding style, then tweaking it, she went straight to “more contact, more leg…”
I should have ended the lesson early, we were both rather shell shocked.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Does anyone follow featherlight horsemanship? She posted a video of her taking a problem horse out for the first time. It was just lovely to watch.
We've got a couple of trainers round here, the first thing they do is tighten the nose band and have the reins an inch long

 

[Goldenstar]

The horse does look like a happy athlete.
Harmony is all it’s not harmonious.

 

[ycbm]

The horse does look like a happy athlete.
Harmony is all it’s not harmonious.

I'm pretty sure you've got a "not" you meant to put in missing there @Goldenstar ?

 

[Goldenstar]

Yup thanks I have edited it.

 

[nikkimariet]

I’d love to see bit less or snaffles. No spurs would be nice too! Never going to happen!

Still get a lot of bad riding in those situations too, doesn’t instantly improve the training by removing those aspects.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I trained weekly for a fair while with a a List 1 dressage judge

She told me ‘Whatever he offers you will not be enough, always ask for more’.

That was a watershed moment - how to sicken a horse. Much better to praise a horse who attempts what you ask it do, and then you quietly work away at improving it.

By ‘praising’ I mean perhaps a neck scratch and maybe a walk on a long rein, then back to work. Not constantly hammering round without a break demanding that the horse does what I insist.

I had a watershed moment when my GP level trainer said to never give Lottie an inch of release saying she won't stay consistent unless you keep her in a frame (with a LOT of pressure) every moment and ativly ride every stride. Essentially be on her case every second of every session with no praise or relaease. Ever. This trainer was winning at Inter-1 at Eurpopeans.

 

[NinjaPony]

It’s quite scary how many ‘big names’ don’t value stretching or release or even a stroke of the neck.

Riding a horse that is light in the bridle and underneath you is such a joy, I can’t understand why you’d want to have to push and pull constantly.

I accidentally rode my first canter pirouette yesterday because the horse felt me sit back too much and offered it up. This was on a light contact and I could feel the hindquarters ‘sit’. It might not get top marks but no force is required if the training is there.

 

[TheMule]

It’s quite scary how many ‘big names’ don’t value stretching or release or even a stroke of the neck.

Riding a horse that is light in the bridle and underneath you is such a joy, I can’t understand why you’d want to have to push and pull constantly.

I accidentally rode my first canter pirouette yesterday because the horse felt me sit back too much and offered it up. This was on a light contact and I could feel the hindquarters ‘sit’. It might not get top marks but no force is required if the training is there.

Or they call it stretching, but it's nose deep, over-round and on the forehand. That is not stretching, it's forcing submission

 

[pistolpete]

Will it eventually be called out like the pentathlon lot? Thought we might have been close when CDJ got caught out with the blood incident.

 

[Rowreach]

Will it eventually be called out like the pentathlon lot? Thought we might have been close when CDJ got caught out with the blood incident.

I find it incredibly sad that the world can easily view videos of the appalling state of top level dressage and do nothing, yet all it took for the pentathlon fuse to be lit was someone smacking a horse on the bottom with an open hand - because that's what it was, and only after that did people start to recognise that putting novicey riders on strange horses for the sake of sport was in fact a terrible thing for the horses. Like dressage, modern pentathlon had been getting away with it for years.

So we need a dressage person to smack a horse's bum and maybe the outcry will be enough to highlight all the other unsavoury activities that are happening.

 

[sbloom]

I find it incredibly sad that the world can easily view videos of the appalling state of top level dressage and do nothing, yet all it took for the pentathlon fuse to be lit was someone smacking a horse on the bottom with an open hand - because that's what it was, and only after that did people start to recognise that putting novicey riders on strange horses for the sake of sport was in fact a terrible thing for the horses. Like dressage, modern pentathlon had been getting away with it for years.

So we need a dressage person to smack a horse's bum and maybe the outcry will be enough to highlight all the other unsavoury activities that are happening.

It was human centred, not horse centred. We think that smacking kids is bad, so smacking horses in the same way must be bad. I guess. Unless people start taking the pain ethogram seriously, and applying it to situations where there's big money, it's tough to make progress.

 

[Chianti]

IMO the ‘point’ of dressage is really Classical Dressage. It’s the lightness, connection and fingertip control of a horse working over its back into a light supple contact, performing gymnastic movements in a regular rhythm with a soft tail and neck.

That is what we should be rewarding. There are riders who strive for this; look at Jessica von Bredel, or Helen Langhanenberg, or Ingrid Klimke. Some of the riders at Olympia this year rode like that.

The issue is around judging; until we start harshly marking tension and stress we will continue to see stressed horses rewarded with higher marks.

I picked up a copy of Sylvia Loch’s classical dressage book a year or so ago and it’s what I go back to, particularly now I’ve started riding Spanish horses. It’s dated but the principles make sense to me.

Is Sylvia Loch still alive? If not she must be spinning in her grave. I remember seeing her years ago at a demo and she was pretty despairing of the way competition dressage was going even then.

 

[little_critter]

Is Sylvia Loch still alive? If not she must be spinning in her grave. I remember seeing her years ago at a demo and she was pretty despairing of the way competition dressage was going even then.

yes - still alive

 

[Chianti]

yes - still alive

She must be so fed up if she watches what passes for top level dressage now. Many of riders who proclaim that they ride 'classically' say it while they're tightening the noseband or riding way behind the vertical.