Lottie and Everdale latest test wins, God help us rewarding this disgrace.

[shortstuff99]

Same. I've seen all that and more in other countries (including the UK); not sure what that has to do with the point that Spain is the best place to go if you want to see high level dressage done better than in most modern dressage competitions.

It was more over the years of watching high competitive dressage in Spain, I don't often see much difference to here anymore. The riding is pretty much now the same, so I wouldn't look to competitive Spanish dressage if you want to see how UK dressage could be improved.

Classic dressage in Spain yes, but are competitive riders going to look at classic dressage anywhere really?

 

[Cortez]

Classic dressage in Spain yes, but are competitive riders going to look at classic dressage anywhere really?

No they are not, and Spain's competition dressage riders on WB's are not all that much different to anyone else, unfortunately. On Spanish horses they are a bit better, but that's because the horses operate differently anyway. Modern dressage competition has nowhere to hide: it is in the main ugly, abusive, and so far from the original principles as to be unrecognisable.

 

[Burnerbee]

So….a lot of people recognise there are some horrible things happening (at events and at home). It’s not getting any better. Personally withdrawing from dressage competition is one thing but it’s not going to drive the message home.

Now, please don‘t shout at me (please, I’m already having a tough week), but I think more direct action would be required;

everyone in the audience (or a significant proportion), literally standing up and turning their backs. Embargoing the VanOlst (Fry’s gaff) sponsors (LeMiuex etc) and telling them why you’re doing so. I would suggest louder methods but I suspect we‘re all too nice and polite .

Other suggestions?

 

[Roxylola]

Slightly off topic but I spectated at some local FEI showjumping on Sunday. For the most part (in the ring) horses were ridden quietly and sympathetically, even when they had stops, poles etc. One round had a stop and gave a couple of audible snacks behind the leg (padded baton of course) they were the only round were I didn't really hear any applause at all. Everyone else seemed to get a ripple even for multiple poles down etc. Possibly the rider didn't even notice but I felt it stood out that their riding was not appreciated by the audience

 

[Maddie Moo]

everyone in the audience (or a significant proportion), literally standing up and turning their backs.

I seem to remember during the 2012 Olympics, people were encouraged to turn their back on riders who used rollkur?

Edited because it didn’t make sense.

 

[Fellewell]

My point was why name the rider, when they are not responsible for the direction that dressage is taking. Your point about training to become a judge is somewhat a long fingered approach. Grass root riders attending their regional AGM and voice their concern/disapproval is the most immediate step.
I understand those here who have left the discipline due to the direction it is/ has taken. I can empathise with that approach, but staying involved and being a voice inside the framework would be my option. Though not much of voice, but if enough of us express our dismay to the authority involved, then maybe we can bring change.

I doubt we will be successful though, as my belief is that the breeding powerhouses on the continent are the people really in charge of the current situation.

She was born into an equestrian family and she's a professional rider so not sure I see your first point.

The scales of training have not changed so the onus is still on the judge/s to reward or penalise accordingly, whatever the level.

If your argument re breeding is that they're turning out flashy horses with extravagant movement and that is influencing decision making. Well it wouldn't be the first time and sadly we all know how that ends and it's not just the judges who can spot the compensatory movements and negative tension. It all comes back to judging.

See Daffy's post upthread that'll cheer you up

 

[little_critter]

I was hoping to try to change (in my own small way) from the inside by training gently and classically and showing you can still compete.
Unfortunately sicknote horse hasn’t shared my aspirations!

 

[DressageCob]

Slightly off topic but I spectated at some local FEI showjumping on Sunday. For the most part (in the ring) horses were ridden quietly and sympathetically, even when they had stops, poles etc. One round had a stop and gave a couple of audible snacks behind the leg (padded baton of course) they were the only round were I didn't really hear any applause at all. Everyone else seemed to get a ripple even for multiple poles down etc. Possibly the rider didn't even notice but I felt it stood out that their riding was not appreciated by the audience

I think showjumping is improving, although I still don't like all the contraptions used. I think it helps that in the audience even a non-horsey person can spot harsh riding. People don't like seeing horses get whacked, even if it's just a baton. So they sound in applause or lack of it. But with dressage I think the issues are more subtle. You can see an unhappy horse, you may notice harsh hands or too active legs. But the average viewer may just see pretty horse dancing.

Personally I hate watching kids showjumping, particularly in the jump off. So many of them whack their pony every stride, after turning them on a sixpence using their reins. I hate it. Because it's kiddies you don't get the same gasps, boos, or lack of applause from the audience as you do for the adults, and you can't comment anything but praise on social media or you get responses of "but she's just a child", "you're bullying a child" etc.

Of course every year there's the discussion about eventing being cruel because of horses dying, same for racing. You also have the grotesque saddle seat classes, walking horses, weird lame loping western pleasure etc. There's a lot in equestrian sport which is uncomfortable at best, unethical or inhumane in some cases.

Back to dressage, I'm lucky with the people I train with. They all are empathetic to the horse, the horse always comes first. If it goes wrong it's the rider so don't take it out on the horse.
My hands aren't what I want them to be, softness in my wrists is an everlasting struggle for me. My legs can be both noisy and ineffective. Thankfully I'm not on the world stage, but there's still a constant strive to be better. For me that's what dressage training is about. Improving myself so I can improve the horse, and always understanding that if we can't achieve something it's a me problem not the horse's problem.

There are top level riders I really enjoy watching, both riding and demos. Gareth Hughes is one. Spencer Wilton always talks about letting the horse's neck out, not pinning it in place, looking harmonious. There are others I don't enjoy, especially when you know they are particularly demanding of their horses.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Because it's kiddies you don't get the same gasps, boos, or lack of applause from the audience as you do for the adults,

You do sometimes. I vividly remember a little girl riding horribly: pony yanked round corners on 3 legs, whacked every few strides, growled at. There was extremely muted applause after she finished clear and with a very fast time. Then my daughter, who was a lovely quiet rider and who always 'good girled' her pony round the course, went in after her and beat her, to huge applause. It was very, very obvious no-one wanted that girl to win. Whether it bothered her, I have no idea, but it was at least a form of clear protest at that style of riding.

 

[Orangehorse]

I have ridden Saddle Seat. It is not grotesque. Different. You have to have a strong core as the leg is held away from the horse's side, apart from a stroke by the outside leg when asking for canter and keep a light contact on the reins. The hands are held higher as the horse has a high head carriage, naturally.

OK, it's not for everyone, but then we don't have the high headed breeds here, apart from the Arab.

I was watching a lesson once and the instructor telling the rider exactly what I had heard Mary Wanless say when taking a lesson years ago about connecting the seat to the ground, and I have also seen that in book written by a famous dressage rider, although I can't remember which one - Spanish Riding School I think.

So the principles are the same. There are a great deal of very good Western riders too, even if I don't personally like the "dead horse walk" and three beat canter. But as I have heard owners say, the riders has more trouble in changing from dressage to western than the horses.

I was dressage writing years ago and the judge was very keen to instruct me too. She said that all riding is the same, the vital thing is to have the horse balanced so it can easily carry out the rider's wishes, whether it is a jockey over a fence, a dressage rider, cross country or Western.

As for the original thread, I thought the same about the performance in question.

 

[SEL]

 

[SEL]

I was trying to post the above with text but laptop playing up.

I don't know what this letter was in response to but its this kind of attitude that you'll be up against as an amateur saying you don't like what you see at the top of dressage - IMHO

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I think amaetues with an opinion are increasingly influential. Trouble with dressage, as other people have said upthread, is that it is less clearly abusive than whacking a show-jumper or a tired race horse.

 

[NinjaPony]

The fact that H&H are still giving column inches to Anna Ross says it all about their attitude…

Judges could make an immediate difference by giving wins and big scores to harmonious combinations

 

[Kaylum]

Regarding the "if you can't say anything nice post" so if you see something is wrong you can't say anything as you might offend them. You can't and shouldn't dictate what people say. Jeeze they need to see what charities have to deal with everyday from abusive people. . They would last 2 minutes.

 

[alexomahony]

It's interesting on a dressage scoring sheet, on the collective marks, you have 'paces, impulsion, submission, rider'.... 'submission' is such an ugly word and immediately means riders think they need a 'submissive' horse... when really, what they need is a harmonious and willing partnership.

I think until there is a score on 'harmony' or 'partnership' that is weighed heavily on a scoring sheet, it'll be hard to see changes at all levels.

On a positive, after Olympia, my social feeds were flooded with praise for the more harmonious tests, such as Becky and Lewis - and less from the 'current big names' in the sport. It felt like a really positive shift.

 

[nikkimariet]

No they are not, and Spain's competition dressage riders on WB's are not all that much different to anyone else, unfortunately. On Spanish horses they are a bit better, but that's because the horses operate differently anyway. Modern dressage competition has nowhere to hide: it is in the main ugly, abusive, and so far from the original principles as to be unrecognisable.

Agree re modern dressage. There are more aspects I dislike than like and that’s all the way up the levels, not just the very top.

 

[equinerebel]

Imagine if no one had said anything about Patrik Kittel cos it wasn't nice. That said, he's still out there competing at the top so even criticising blatant abuse and cruelty doesn't seem to get us anywhere.

 

[ycbm]

"If you can't say anything nice say nothing" is a charter for abusers and sociopaths in all areas of life.




"Don't deliberately or through avoidable carelessness cause unnecessary pain to another human being, " 100% right.

"Don't call out bad things when you see them." 100% wrong.
.

 

[Chianti]

View attachment 132780

I'm sorry but that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. 'If you can't say anything nice, then say nothing.' ? How is any aspect of society meant to progress if we all sit on our hands and zip our lips when we see something wrong? We live in a world where knowledge is a key board away. I know about the physical signs of pain and stress that a ridden horse can show. If I know that, then why don't the 'professionals' working with horses? Lets all just carry on with happy owners and riders and judges and FEI officials - shame about the horses.

 

[Boughtabay]

I think amaetues with an opinion are increasingly influential. Trouble with dressage, as other people have said upthread, is that it is less clearly abusive than whacking a show-jumper or a tired race horse.

And “But the average viewer may just see pretty horse dancing”

Just wanted to throw in my OHs view who is actively not-horsey and doesn’t really get the want to do anything other than hacking. I’ve taken him along to a few dressage competitions at a very low level and he’s then done a google of dressage. “Is that what you’re aiming for? It looks awful.” So even to the untrained eye high level dressage doesn’t look good or pretty. He expanded that the horses look uncomfortable and forced and the movements unnatural. I reassured him there was absolutely no hope of me and the Spanish dragon even aiming for anything above novice, let alone the top tiers of dressage - but I don’t think I’d realised how absolutely awful it actually does look to the untrained eye.

 

[pistolpete]

You only have to watch Eddie Izzards portrayal to know how the general public see it.

 

[Bernster]

It's interesting on a dressage scoring sheet, on the collective marks, you have 'paces, impulsion, submission, rider'.... 'submission' is such an ugly word and immediately means riders think they need a 'submissive' horse... when really, what they need is a harmonious and willing partnership.

I think until there is a score on 'harmony' or 'partnership' that is weighed heavily on a scoring sheet, it'll be hard to see changes at all levels.

On a positive, after Olympia, my social feeds were flooded with praise for the more harmonious tests, such as Becky and Lewis - and less from the 'current big names' in the sport. It felt like a really positive shift.

I like this. Never thought about submission before but you make a very good point # what a dangerous road that takes us down.

 

[shortstuff99]

I like this. Never thought about submission before but you make a very good point # what a dangerous road that takes us down.

On that note the new BD tests have removed the word submission and replaced.it with harmony.

 

[Bernster]

Ooh that’s interesting! Thx

 

[Orangehorse]

If have a training book written by a Continental rider and in it he tells how you should put the horse on the ground so that it is submissive.

 

[tristars]

i thought submission means the horse gives itself up to the rider, that place where a mere whisper is needed, the ultimate in collection, its not about words its about how riders interpret what they are aiming for, a horse in submission totally on the aids

its a stage further than harmony in this context and a lot more needs to change than playing around with words

 

[j1ffy]

Weren’t collectives removed for straight FEI tests?

It’s sad to read the stories on here about people having lessons with very harsh dressage riders. That’s not been my experience at all, positive reinforcement and working to get the nose out, working correctly from behind and lots of give / retakes have been my experience. Then again I do seek out trainers rather than big name riders (some people are both - I really enjoyed a weekend clinic with Becky Moody for example, but I guess she was a well known trainer first), usually with appropriate qualifications. Maybe I’m also lucky to be in an area where the vast majority of trainers come through Talland and / or Carl!

 

[stormox]

If have a training book written by a Continental rider and in it he tells how you should put the horse on the ground so that it is submissive.

What you mean like Rarey in the 19th century?? Surely we are long past all that....

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Seeing another thread about vaulting - to me that is another hideous "sport"

Likewise the majority of the contraptions used in show-jumping - you have a lot of massive bridles, or you'll see combinations of ear covers and those blinker things - why are you needing to dull 2 senses how can the horse be happy in that environment if you're needing to do that? We are seeing massive bits and 2 nosebands yet still there's spurs.

Agreed with the person up thread who doesn't like seeing kids show jumping

Are horses being bred that are way too hyper sensitive that so much force/contraptions need to be applied to make them usable by people who ride for a living? What about the foals that don't make the grade when they need this much anchorage to be controllable by professionals how can they then be used by amateurs? So what future do the ones that don't make the grade have? Too wild for amateurs but not good enough for the top levels?

I'd never be skilled enough to drive an F1 car, but if drivers are having to be hard on the breaks or accelerator during a race it's not a living thing

Like I said up thread I wouldn't be sad at all if horse "sport" was removed from the Olympics